Shooting on a boundary - retrieving pigeons over a boundary?

[sitsinhedges]

No worries, I'd still jump over and collect it if no-ones looking

[Kes]

No worries, I'd still jump over and collect it if no-ones looking

Me too !

[ShropshireSam]

Found this in a "League against cruel s******s" document:

 

Land trespass: Trespass to land consists of any unjustifiable intrusion by one person upon land
in possession of another. The slightest crossing of the boundary is sufficient and it is no defence
that the trespass was due to a mistake of fact or law (e.g. the trespasser cannot claim that they
did not know the land belonged to someone else), provided the physical act of entry was
voluntary. If you have a trespass claim it is not necessary to prove that you have suffered actual
damage and nor do you need to show a motive on the part of the trespasser. If a person is
standing on their own land and shoots game which falls on neighbouring land they cannot enter
that land to retrieve it without permission. It should also be remembered that an individual does
not have to enter the land themselves - if they invite others to do so then they are liable for
trespass as well as those who enter the land. Allowing a dog onto another's land is also a
trespass.

 

The "League" tend to know the law inside out so they can use it to their advantage - so it appears to be tresspass if no permission. My Grandad advice must have been based on the local accepted protocol between neighbouring estates - which makes common sense..rather than our laws.

[lakeside1000]

Went roost shooting on a boundary of my permission last week. The field margin I was on was on my premission but the adjacent wood the pigeons roost in is not. Twice I entered the wood (ie crossed the boundary) to retrieve shot pigeons. I seem to remember that this is permitted by law for game...but what about pigeons? I emptied the gun and carried it open so clear, if seen, that I am not shooting. I heard today the neighbouring farmer is claiming he has "seen poachers" in the wood. Not sure if this was me he saw as others have permission to shoot this permission as well. I plan to visit the neighbouring farmer and check if it was me he saw and explain my actions/apologise.

 

Would like to know the law before I meet the neighbouring farmer so I know where I stand and ask for permission to retrieve pigeons in the future...if he's not happy with me on the boundary then I'll keep away....I have all my permisisons clustered together so want to keep a good name in the neighbourhood. (Not a shoot on either farm so thats not an issue).

A word of advice, do not admit to your neighbour you entered his land with your gun !!!! by all means let him know you were there, just retrieving shot pigeons, the worst he can do is ban you from entering his land again, if you admit to going onto his land armed, he can immediatly phone the police and have you arrested,by your own admission of armed trespass, play it cool , watch what you say.

Personally I would let things cool down for a while before going to ask for permission either to recover game or shoot his wood, by then he will have given up looking for poachers.

I often nip over the hedge to pick up shot birds, but I know all the farmers by name and never ever take my gun, usually leave it at the nearest point to crossing the boundry so its never out of my sight

[markshaw2000]

If you go onto someones land without permission you are trespassing. The fact you may have shot something is irrelevant.

I disagree with this. Many fields have footpaths running through them?

[sitsinhedges]

I disagree with this. Many fields have footpaths running through them?

 

And you can carry a sleeved gun on one but that is irrelevant to the context of this thread.

[Kes]

I disagree with this. Many fields have footpaths running through them?

If you read the extract I posted above, it all becomes clear?

[ShropshireSam]

Thanks guys .... I wil certainly not be admitting to armed trespass!! Lesson learnt on that one. I will start with an apology for retrieving pigeons from across his boundary without his permission and take it from there.

[yickdaz]

its a grey area have to admit, but I will stand by what I said earlier just use discretion I hate leaving shot birds in a crop or over the boundary and when you know a bird has fallen just yards behind you and it would be a mile trip in the car to the neighbours farm just to ask am I ok just to pick a few dead pigeon up yards from the boundary I was shooting on but I suppose the law is the law, I have never been challenged by an irrate farmer in 27 years , but if it happened I would just say sorry about that I,m just picking a few dead birds up that have fallen on your side, I won,t do it again.

and just to go off course a little pardon the pun I have actually picked up land by trespassing ,well walked across next doors land to ask for permission after seeing the farmer in the field behind me

Edited January 10, 2014 by yickdaz

[AULD YIN]

Had me worried as i always thought i could retrieve from other property with care of fences and crops so to clarify i found this, its from Police Scotland,,,,,,,,,

Trespass to land is a civil matter and as such the police have no jurisdiction. Under common law, the landowner has a right to re-entry on the land; however the ejection of the trespasser is fraught with danger for the landowner. Initially, the landowner should ask the occupier to leave the land and if he/she does then all is well. The problems start however, if he/she refuses to leave the land.

It is also a criminal offence under the Trespass Scotland Act 1865 for a person to lodge in premises, occupy or encamp on any private property, without the consent and permission of the owner.

Anything done by a member of the public in exercising their access rights under the Land Reform Scotland Act 2003 does not amount to trespass. The Scottish Outdoor Access Code details these rights and how they should be exercised.

The owner of the land could commit several criminal offences if he forcibly removes the trespasser and his/her property from the land. The best and safest course of action is to obtain a court order, which if breached may then turn into a criminal matter.

If the police do attend an incident such as this, they are merely there as observers for any possible criminal offences committed by either party. The police cannot assist in the removal of the trespassers or their property from the land in question.

The police do have some powers against larger groups of occupiers if damage has been caused. Trespass is very complex and guidance should be sought where appropriate.

johnnie

[leeds chimp]

Bit late now but the best way I have found is go and speak to the land owner and say you shoot next door for Farmer X....by the way..is it ok if i get anything that I shoot on his farm but lands on yours....more than likely yes....then bring up about shooting on his "while you are in the area"

[Wingy]

Not sure about pigeons but would imagine it's the same - any wild deer belongs to whoever owns the land it is on at the time dead or alive.

So if shot on your side then runs and dies on someone else's land it belongs to them!

As said if you take your gun = armed trespass

As for cartridges no problem it's not the same as section 1 ammunition

Wingy

[bullet1747]

when I first started I txt the farmer saying I was on the rape field he had just cut the day before ,I txt him cause it was six in the morning , he phoned about ten and asked where I was as he hadn't cut any yet ,I explained to my shock I set up in the joining field to his ,I said I would pack up straight away to the reply of I'll sort it for you , he phoned the land owner to explain my mistake, I had a visit about ten mins later from the owner I was very sorry and would pack up straight away I told the owner , no problem he said carry on and here is a lot more permission for you top result

[hedge]

Chaps,

 

This is another thread based on what the Law says we can and can't do, and not what we `think` is okay.

 

I know we have "I have always done" or "my Grandad told me" or "I've never had a problem" but c'mon guys we really SHOULD all know this and if we don't, then we are leaving ourselves open to criticism. This is exactly what the anti's want - misinformed shooters who may leave themselves open to prosecution and/or bad publicity. It's not what the sport needs.

 

We've all done it - hopped over a fence or sent the dog just over a boundary to retrieve a shot bird. And why wouldn't we? We have a morale obligation? The Law doesn't recognise that. Don't forget - if you are shooting 100 yards from the boundary and you shoot a bird your side of the fence and your lead shot travels over the boundary - that is still considered as armed trespass.

 

The reason why there are very few issues is that you very rarely come across other people when you are shooting, the landowner isn't bothered, or perhaps no-one knows the Law! It still doesn't make it right.

 

There are plenty of inexperienced shooters coming on this forum to get good, sound advice from people with "25+ years shooting experience". We need to make sure we are giving the right advice. If you do end up in court, the Law won't recognise how long you have shot for, or morale obligations, or "Grandpappy told me it was okay". What the Law says and accepted Best Practice don'talways agree but let's not mislead people.

 

I don't want to imagine someone standing in the wrong field arguing with a landowner "someone on PW told me it was ok" - that certainly wouldn't stand up in court.

 

I love my sport and I really do think we need to stop saying "as I recall" or "I've always done it that way".

 

When I was younger, I knew of someone who for 25 years used to have a drink too many and drive his car (he was a bit `old school`).He also didn't wear a seatbelt. Just because he'd done it for years didn't make it right. Just because he hadn't been caught didn't make it right. One day he hit a tree and paid the ultimate price.

 

Sorry to labour the point but it's our responsibility to know the Law and ensure that we inform others correctly. I know it's a ball ache at times - but this is a public forum so let's make sure we promote a positive and well informed shooting community.

 

End of rant.

[pontbeck]

Excellent post and I'm sure many PW members , including the OP, now know what the law is on retrieving over your boundary.

[Big Mat]

Chaps,

 

This is another thread based on what the Law says we can and can't do, and not what we `think` is okay.

 

I know we have "I have always done" or "my Grandad told me" or "I've never had a problem" but c'mon guys we really SHOULD all know this and if we don't, then we are leaving ourselves open to criticism. This is exactly what the anti's want - misinformed shooters who may leave themselves open to prosecution and/or bad publicity. It's not what the sport needs.

 

We've all done it - hopped over a fence or sent the dog just over a boundary to retrieve a shot bird. And why wouldn't we? We have a morale obligation? The Law doesn't recognise that. Don't forget - if you are shooting 100 yards from the boundary and you shoot a bird your side of the fence and your lead shot travels over the boundary - that is still considered as armed trespass.

 

 

 

Just to highlight this point, i read somewhere that the law does not actually refer to shotgun pellets, but to rifle ammunition. ( I will check if i can find it ) ( possibly BASC website? )

Edited February 14, 2014 by Big Mat

[Mentalmac]

Haha I'd love to be a landowner - mmm Free pigeon for tea - thanks Mr Shooter! :-)

[hedge]

 

Just to highlight this point, i read somewhere that the law does not actually refer to shotgun pellets, but to rifle ammunition. ( I will check if i can find it ) ( possibly BASC website? )

 

Big Mat,

 

I was trying to look it up but couldn't find this.

 

I have found the following guidelines from The League Against Cruel Sports. It suggests that shooting over someone else's land is treated as a civil matter as trespass, rather than a criminal act. I know that clay grounds can't allow lead to go outside of their boundary and that can also fall under noise nuisance.

 

http://www.nwhsa.org.uk/Troubled%20by%20the%20shoot.pdf

 

 

Airspace trespass: A person who owns land also owns the airspace above it, up to a height

required for the reasonable enjoyment of the land. If someone fires over the land without the land

owner's permission then this constitutes a trespass for which the land owner can pursue a civil

claim (see definition in introduction).

 

Land trespass: Trespass to land consists of any unjustifiable intrusion by one person upon land

in possession of another. The slightest crossing of the boundary is sufficient and it is no defence

that the trespass was due to a mistake of fact or law (e.g. the trespasser cannot claim that they

did not know the land belonged to someone else), provided the physical act of entry was

voluntary. If you have a trespass claim it is not necessary to prove that you have suffered actual

damage and nor do you need to show a motive on the part of the trespasser. If a person is

standing on their own land and shoots game which falls on neighbouring land they cannot enter

that land to retrieve it without permission. It should also be remembered that an individual does

not have to enter the land themselves - if they invite others to do so then they are liable for

trespass as well as those who enter the land. Allowing a dog onto another's land is also a

trespass.

 

It's also very clear about retrieving shot birds either directly or indirectly via the use of a dog. (It does refer to `game` in the guidelines but they appear to have been written for game shooting and I see no reason why this wouldn't apply to any shot quarry).

 

We live and learn!

[yickdaz]

a very simple way around it,, go and see the neighbouring farmer whos boundary you will be shooting on and ask would it be ok to collect any birds that falls on his side , I did this myself 2 weeks ago he has a field of rape bordering our land so we can decoy them on our side but it is 100% set in stone birds are gonna drop on his side, I asked for permission at the same time but he said a few guys shoot on his land and it wouldn,t be fair to them if I let you shoot, I said that's fair enough , then was told you can pick any shot birds from my land no problem

[Cheshirebowman]

On 10/01/2014 at 20:55, Longchalk said:

I also believe you can't legally pick up roadkill, if you accidentally hit a deer or a pheasant say whilst driving..... But the next person following along behind you can have it.....Anyone care to confirm or deny?

This is true. 

[holloway]

On 10/01/2014 at 20:48, sitsinhedges said:

If you go onto someones land without permission you are trespassing. The fact you may have shot something is irrelevant.

exactly this ,check first not afterwards .

[TIGHTCHOKE]

GORDON BENNETT!      

[JKD]

12 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

GORDON BENNETT!      

I was going to give you a nudge re this thread, but thought no,,,, you'll find it in time 🤓😂

[TIGHTCHOKE]

[enfieldspares]

I reckon whatever it was that fell over the boundary has composted itself by now.