turbo33 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I would be sponsoring PC, and Andy Crow with cartridges if it were me Then by arrangement with PC/Crow, get articles into magazines. Repeated bags of over the ton look good from a marketing point of view. That will help capture the audience, then make it easy for them to find and buy from you. Exciting web site, favourable delivery options etc. Just my views Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 In a saturated market place, you need to find something unique about your product. If it significantly better to the end user? Does it offer something that others don't? What is your reason for being in the marketplace? You won't receive the benefit of the doubt as you are an unknown brand. Publicity will help you get your name out, but if you're not offering the end user something they can't already get people won't buy them. You currently push a couple loads in the 28-32g appropriate for birds. There are lots of loads in every local gunshop that do the same thing. What makes your special? What does yours give me that no one else does? If you found a niche in the market that wasn't being filled, then you have a point to enter. Then once you have a some prominence and a reputation for a good cartridge you can branch out into other offerings. I can tell you one niche I'd like to see- fiber or photo wad steel. Give me a ~30g #4 fiber (in a 12 or a 3" 20) at 1400 fps and a ~42g BB at 1400 in a 3 1/2" 12. Those don't exist on the market but if you could make one and they performed then there would be no reason not to switch. thanks, rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 People will then look for your game carts to stick with what they like, and loads use clay loads for pigeons so your 30g 6s or even a 28g 6s carts become very usable to a lot of people as they are clay cart priced. Could even be a clay and game cart at 28g 6.5/7 shot use the same cart for both. Figgy This is exactly where I think George could find his niche in the market, a shell that could cleanly kill pigeons and pheasants at a good range and would also break clays in competition where 28 grammes is the limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 In a saturated market place, you need to find something unique about your product. If it significantly better to the end user? Does it offer something that others don't? What is your reason for being in the marketplace? You won't receive the benefit of the doubt as you are an unknown brand. Publicity will help you get your name out, but if you're not offering the end user something they can't already get people won't buy them. You currently push a couple loads in the 28-32g appropriate for birds. There are lots of loads in every local gunshop that do the same thing. What makes your special? What does yours give me that no one else does? If you found a niche in the market that wasn't being filled, then you have a point to enter. Then once you have a some prominence and a reputation for a good cartridge you can branch out into other offerings. I can tell you one niche I'd like to see- fiber or photo wad steel. Give me a ~30g #4 fiber (in a 12 or a 3" 20) at 1400 fps and a ~42g BB at 1400 in a 3 1/2" 12. Those don't exist on the market but if you could make one and they performed then there would be no reason not to switch. thanks, rick I have worked with the fibre shot cups and steel there is some very good loads out for the 12g. There was a comment on another thread saying that they had spoke to one of the cartridge companys about the fsc and they said they could"t get it to work only in a 3" its nonsense they do work and they work well someone needs to do some leg work with them for all the none home loaders to be able to benefit and have the chance to use them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 This is exactly where I think George could find his niche in the market, a shell that could cleanly kill pigeons and pheasants at a good range and would also break clays in competition where 28 grammes is the limit. Thats all well and good but alot of clay grounds have a shot size restriction of #7s so no bigger shot than that. But i am of the same thinking as i loads 28g #5 plas an felt and there great all rounder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Thats all well and good but alot of clay grounds have a shot size restriction of #7s so no bigger shot than that. But i am of the same thinking as i loads 28g #5 plas an felt and there great all rounder But if you can only get bottom end clay cartridge money for them then there is no profit in it for George. so would you pay more for an all round #7 cartridge? if so would you not just buy one of the imported cartridges with 2.4mm or #7 shot on the box? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I think your approach to get them into the hands of a end user is not a bad idea in principle , but if as the manufacturer you are having difficulty on getting shops to stock then the shooter stands little chance . At the end of the day the shooter needs cartridges and if he cannot easily get yours he will use something else. Consider your packaging also , you will sell far more cartridges to pigeon shooters if the box or case has the word pigeon on it " Ultimate pigeon " for example instead of "Ultimate game" It will not matter a jot if the only difference is the printing I guarantee they would sell better at the same price. Think about what gaps are in the market , some of us have mentioned that a 30 gram 7 load would be ideal for pigeon but they are difficult to find at the right price . Free sample may help convince shooters but unless a shop in their area is going to stock them it would be a waste of time and money . If you can get a new shop to stock then start them on promotion , you will make less but sell more and once they are popular and selling well you can increase the price a little . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 It don't matter what product you have, you need to find a gap and fill it better than any other company does. You make a fantastic shell lets say better than any other lets say? What you then need is a great sales dept to get them on the shelves, strangely enough a great sales and marketing dept will shift your gear fast even if its just ran stuff. Give a poor sales dept fantastic goods and its still dead on its feet. Ford were not the best cars when they took over the UK market from the existing UK brands all those years ago they were the best marketed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derfley Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I have worked with the fibre shot cups and steel there is some very good loads out for the 12g. There was a comment on another thread saying that they had spoke to one of the cartridge companys about the fsc and they said they could"t get it to work only in a 3" its nonsense they do work and they work well someone needs to do some leg work with them for all the none home loaders to be able to benefit and have the chance to use them This strikes me as a great idea, a fibre shot cup 2.75" 12 bore cartridge with both steel and lead options. Produce a great cartridge that fits a gap in the market to get into RFD's then build on from there. Getting on the shelves is going to be the hardest part of the process, advertising will help with this. As a side note, the last three RFD's I've spoken to are simply pricing their cart's at cost +10-20% so there is not a lot of margin there. The other question is can you sell them to RFD's at a price that would give them a better margin, that may help with getting them on the shelves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 This strikes me as a great idea, a fibre shot cup 2.75" 12 bore cartridge with both steel and lead options. Produce a great cartridge that fits a gap in the market to get into RFD's then build on from there. Getting on the shelves is going to be the hardest part of the process, advertising will help with this. As a side note, the last three RFD's I've spoken to are simply pricing their cart's at cost +10-20% so there is not a lot of margin there. The other question is can you sell them to RFD's at a price that would give them a better margin, that may help with getting them on the shelves. I would"t load lead into them they are more expensive than normal felt fibre wad i am not saying that you cant load lead it just would"t be cost effective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) 30 years ago I was going to spend my gratuity (plus commutation) plus some on a commercial loading machine. I'd come up with a brand name, 'Dove Tail'. This reflected an integration of components for the production of pigeon cartridges. For lead, as pattern kills and the market place was heading in the wrong direction in my view to achieve this, I was going to slow things down. Also, rightly or wrongly, in view of increasing noises about the use of plastic wads, they were not on the menu. I'd planned 3 loads - 1oz No 7 for decoying, 11/16 No 6.5 for long range decoying and flight line and 11/8 No 6 for roost. Naturally, anyone buying them didn't just have to use them for pigeon. At the time I was well placed with many contacts to get the marketing into gear. However, it didn't happen - I was made an offer (of a job) which I couldn't refuse. I've always regretted not going for it. George, good luck and I wish you every success. Edited August 5, 2014 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIDES EDGE Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I would"t load lead into them they are more expensive than normal felt fibre wad i am not saying that you cant load lead it just would"t be cost effective I suspect one of the reasons that the fibre cups are more expensive is due to them not being massed produced if the demand was made it should bring down the cost and as I have said on similar posts we should be going away from plastic wads in all cartridges . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Wow there are some great idea's posted, that's it for me for a while going on holiday and hope to drop in to one supplier for some more reloading stuff next week. Good luck with this george the market place is full with different makes of cartridges so it will not be easy or cheap to displace anothers products from the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughshooter Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 This seems very civilised all of a sudden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 This seems very civilised all of a sudden I was thinking that, great news Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I have just been on Just cartridges website ,I myself don't use game shells but George's prices knock spots of the competition most mid range end stuff is about £230 - £260 per 1000 with the top end stuff at £280+ This must be a good selling point for a start Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 A cartridge is a cartridge is a cartridge!! what makes one better than another when similarly loaded and designed for a specific purpose? how do you get shooters to buy them? how do you persuade retailers to stock them? Price, price and again price....... I've just obtained 1000 x 12g x 65mm game cartridges, fibre wad x 30g x 6's they were advertised for £230 per 1000 if I could easily obtain similar loaded by George for less money....I would have spent my money with George! as I have no doubt Georges offerings are as good as any! P1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propercartridges Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Let me say this. I can go and get Gamebore, Eley, Lyvale, RC and Hull cartridges easily. Standard game loads are made by every company so unless yours are radar guided or something why are they better than brand x? IMHO you need to find a niche market, and one of those would be wildfowling and non toxic loads, in steel AND OTHERS. Bismuth and Tungsten are getting hard to source. Now if you had something like that......... One of the gunshops in the area used to stock your cartridges but at the time (around 2010) they were charging £70 a slab and I could get Gamebore Super Game at £55 why go for something new and unproven which is more expensive? you see people you put them in a gun shop and they choke the deal that's £280 per 1000 can you tell me the size of the cart eg 32 36 40 thanks George will wait for reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propercartridges Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Wow, suddenly I can understand everything George says without google translate. Proper impressed, I am Put me down for a thousand next time your near dorset where r u in dorset coming at the week end hopefully please pm me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 But if you can only get bottom end clay cartridge money for them then there is no profit in it for George. so would you pay more for an all round #7 cartridge? if so would you not just buy one of the imported cartridges with 2.4mm or #7 shot on the box? i use to use hull sovereign for everything but then started doing more game /pigeon shooting and they just din"t do it for me so now i dont use #7 only for clays #7 shot yes they do kill but not as good as #5s. I have had a few hours this afternoon shooting some 24g #5 and boy they do the job even down range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I suspect one of the reasons that the fibre cups are more expensive is due to them not being massed produced if the demand was made it should bring down the cost and as I have said on similar posts we should be going away from plastic wads in all cartridges . yes i think you would be right but while the price is so high people arnt going to use them as much the fowlers will use a few to try them but i think that would be about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magman Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 have you though about bespoke cartridges to the rich (can you have empty's made with a name on !!!!! ) Other than that maybe start at a local clay ground taking orders to be delivered on the day and progress to a few and go from there , or even find local Pheasant shoots and try to organize group buys with them ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propercartridges Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 for the bits and pieces cheddite cx2000 with usually 12mm brass head or fiocchi with 616 12 head wads cheddite or gualandi fibre Diana and faye also doing some work for sundeala powder double based pb Clermont or cz explosia for the shot one only up to now locattelli tower dropped shot I would say the best you can get winner of Olympics for I don't know how many years do you see any other claim to fame the best rolls of the table not stops half way like pearls so chaps ask the others what they r using see if it matches any of this swag it might but look at the price compared to me 189 for 32 gram made with this above can any body do better have you though about bespoke cartridges to the rich (can you have empty's made with a name on !!!!! ) Other than that maybe start at a local clay ground taking orders to be delivered on the day and progress to a few and go from there , or even find local Pheasant shoots and try to organize group buys with them ? yes magman can put name ect for about 30 pounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JABB Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Personally I feel you need to follow the market. Down south this is clay driven FIBRE. There is a game market too, but everyone I spoke to wanted clay loads mainly. If you had a full range, RFDs may be more interested. If you just say I do these three, as I make money on these, you won't get far. Put a package together. Game loads. Clay loads, and follow what people want, not what you want. FIBRE down here is what is expected in 80% of grounds / farms. 90% also seem to buy on cost followed by brand. You are good on cost to punters but on a restricted range. A couple of people on here, Figgy for one, have said how good the clay carts were. Get them back, get someone well known shooting them, get the supply of a full range sorted, then approach dealers. If you go at it with one or two, you won't get in. Also, there seems to be a greater interest in lighter loads. Carl Bloxham for instance supplies 24g, 7.5 shells. George, I would love to help you, and will distribute samples to all the local dealers within 25 miles for you. I would love to get your cartridges here. I would love to try your 24g clay loads, and a lighter game load personally. I also am not far from Charlie Bull at JC. I have his details and would approach him if asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propercartridges Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 look chaps play right and left on the r is a case on the left is a case no difference then a wad no diference powder to push 28 gram then for 32 maybe a fiver a thousand so lead at about say 1800 a ton equals £1.80 a gram so diference is 4 grams x 1.80 equals 7.20 in lead so take the fiver for the powder and 7.20 for the lead that's 12.20 plus vat so how in the creation of hens back teeth do we arrive at say 160 for a 28 gram cheapy and 260 plus for some of the 32 gram on the market now can any body tell me that so this is how I arrive at mine at 189 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.