Kes Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 The Security Services want access to more internet data (skype) etc, to combat terrorists who are increasingly using sophisticated means of communication. The political parties seem to disagree for the sake of it, necessary changes to the law to allow security services to check all forms of data are likely to be mired in party political bickering. I would be happy to see extended powers for the security services subject to some sensible (but not neutering) controls. Are the politicians letting us down again in the wake of Charlie ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Possibly I too would welcome extra powers but they will need extra manpower too. If you have nothing to hide then surely they will not find anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuji Shooter Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 They should just do it and not even bother to ask. If you have nothing to hide what's the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 The security services will monitor people they want to monitor using every conceivable electronic or conventional means available, they don't ask permission for that. What we are witnessing is more window dressing than of any real use in combatting terrorism, it IS a worry though in terms of curtailing ordinary peoples freedoms, stealth big brother dressed in preserving safety clothes in other words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Let them monitor anything and everything, I don't have anything to hide so why would I care what they see? If it keeps us safe then why not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye18 Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 The security services will monitor people they want to monitor using every conceivable electronic or conventional means available, they don't ask permission for that. What we are witnessing is more window dressing than of any real use in combatting terrorism, it IS a worry though in terms of curtailing ordinary peoples freedoms, stealth big brother dressed in preserving safety clothes in other words. +1 spot on hamster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainBeaky Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) This comes up every time a terrorist sneezes - the security services and the Home Office have been after extended powers for years. What the powers actually mean is the equivalent of opening all your postal mail for checking before it it's delivered. The talking heads spout the usual "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" non-sequitur, and imply, or even state explicitly, that anyone opposing the extension of monitoring is a terrorist sympathizer. They forget to mention that anyone with reasonable knowledge would be able to circumvent the surveillance anyway - the dark web exists, despite all efforts to the contrary - but function creep would soon mean council officials monitoring your email to check on benefit entitlement, or school eligibility. Sorry guys, but civil liberties are hard won, and once relinquished, are almost impossible to get back. Mr Franklin's quote is most apposite here: "Those who would sacrifice essential liberties in exchange for security, will end up with neither". Edited January 13, 2015 by CaptainBeaky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainBeaky Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Good grief - 3 "nothing to hide, nothing to fear"s already while I was struggling with autocorrect! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnphilip Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Good grief - 3 "nothing to hide, nothing to fear"s already while I was struggling with autocorrect! they wont want to check yours cos you will confuse them to much :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Let them look,lives are at stake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twistedsanity Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Every time there is an attack the government in power use it as an excuse to erode more of our rights and liberties(remember the things people gave their lives for in the wars? To protect our civil rights, freedoms and liberties?) , what happens when they have run out of rights and liberties to remove and the terrorists are still running rings round them? Martial law? Curfews? We are sleepwalking Into a surveillance state where we have no privacy whatsoever , CCTV, biometrics, RFD's, snooping on private mail, it's all very well to say "nothing to hide" if you trust that the information and privacy you are freely giving away will have no detremental effect on your life or on that of future generations by the current or future governments (not that the people in power would ever consider selling your data for profit or leave it on a laptop or memory stick on public transport). We all want a peacefull terror free life but there is no guarantee that this is the way forward or will make any difference whatsoever, they already have access to this information illegaly(read the snowdon files) and this is just a way of trying to justify the use of this clandestine spying and privacy invasion and be allowed to use it against us whenever and however they please. Remember Hitler was voted in in a free and democratic election, what if we mistakenly/foolishly/unwittingly vote in a similar character in future and they have all the powers they need sitting at their fingertips? Will having a good moan at whoever is in power in 20 years time get those freedoms, liberties and privacy reinstated? Most of what was written in the Magna Carta to protect our freedoms has been subverted already, I would rather they brought back capital punishment for the likes of Abu hamza and his pals that took away more freedoms and liberties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Here's the thing, it's all very well saying 'you've nothing to fear if you've nothing to hide' - that is until someone in power in the future decides that they don't like what you're saying/thinking/doing and changes the law. Don't think it hasn't happened because it has. A small example would be the views of a few members on here which contravene the Equality Act. Might seem an odd example and you might not like it but it's (currently) the law. Imagine that writ large. The problem with the erosion of civil liberties is that as they drip drip away many people hardly notice. They don't as a rule ever return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liamey Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Every time there is an attack the government in power use it as an excuse to erode more of our rights and liberties(remember the things people gave their lives for in the wars? To protect our civil rights, freedoms and liberties?) , what happens when they have run out of rights and liberties to remove and the terrorists are still running rings round them? Martial law? Curfews? We are sleepwalking Into a surveillance state where we have no privacy whatsoever , CCTV, biometrics, RFD's, snooping on private mail, it's all very well to say "nothing to hide" if you trust that the information and privacy you are freely giving away will have no detremental effect on your life or on that of future generations by the current or future governments (not that the people in power would ever consider selling your data for profit or leave it on a laptop or memory stick on public transport). We all want a peacefull terror free life but there is no guarantee that this is the way forward or will make any difference whatsoever, they already have access to this information illegaly(read the snowdon files) and this is just a way of trying to justify the use of this clandestine spying and privacy invasion and be allowed to use it against us whenever and however they please. Remember Hitler was voted in in a free and democratic election, what if we mistakenly/foolishly/unwittingly vote in a similar character in future and they have all the powers they need sitting at their fingertips? Will having a good moan at whoever is in power in 20 years time get those freedoms, liberties and privacy reinstated? Most of what was written in the Magna Carta to protect our freedoms has been subverted already, I would rather they brought back capital punishment for the likes of Abu hamza and his pals that took away more freedoms and liberties I agree 100 per cent with this. firearms, sorry I mean big bad nasty weapons that seem to fire by themselves will also be on the radar. Active government assassination squads with intelligence might be one way to tackle the current threats. But alas we are talking about the government, and how many would vote that they get it right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Lets say they pass this law which allows some governing body access our email, letters or whatever else has been written above; I for one get anything between 50 and 100 emails a day, do you really think there will ever be the manpower for some self pleasuring geek to be sitting there reading my emails whilst I confess my undying love for the hairy bloke next door? These things will be automated computer programs to pick up on words/phrases which would set an alarm to look deeper. Yes it will extend beyond catching terrorists, but if it manages to take the law to these scumbags, manages to break up a paedophile ring or stops someone doing benefit fraud then I'm all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Lets say they pass this law which allows some governing body access our email, letters or whatever else has been written above; I for one get anything between 50 and 100 emails a day, do you really think there will ever be the manpower for some self pleasuring geek to be sitting there reading my emails whilst I confess my undying love for the hairy bloke next door? These things will be automated computer programs to pick up on words/phrases which would set an alarm to look deeper. Yes it will extend beyond catching terrorists, but if it manages to take the law to these scumbags, manages to break up a paedophile ring or stops someone doing benefit fraud then I'm all for it. Fair points and it would be strange to argue against something that is potentially designed to protect people. But having said that, all laws which require citizens to give up freedoms do require careful examination because if not, they can be abused by our future leaders, and we have no way of knowing who those leaders are going to be. The Law of Unintended Consequences can and often does rear its ugly head in scenarios like this too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Fair points and it would be strange to argue against something that is potentially designed to protect people. But having said that, all laws which require citizens to give up freedoms do require careful examination because if not, they can be abused by our future leaders, and we have no way of knowing who those leaders are going to be. The Law of Unintended Consequences can and often does rear its ugly head in scenarios like this too. Totally agree!! Can I also add that we talk about "freedom" or "equality", but when we look at people like these gunmen or these hate clerics, how many of us think they deserve freedom, equality or the ability to exercise their human rights? I think most people would say they don't deserve any of this. Unfortunately, like anything in life, the minority spoil it for the majority, and if this is a case where I have to give up my freedom to stop others abusing theirs then I'm willing to do that. Edited January 13, 2015 by Cosd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRYAN3 Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I just read on post 7,second line up- Apposite. Thats the the second time today. Could someone please tell me WT* it means. Thanks in advance. Bryan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I just read on post 7,second line up- Apposite. Thats the the second time today. Could someone please tell me WT* it means. Thanks in advance. Bryan. Another word for appropriate.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Drip, drip, drip......and for what? How does the quote go ? A Governemnt which sacrifices a little freedom for a little security will get neither, and deserve neither, or something like that. All those involved in the Charlie Hebdo shootings were well known to French security services and featured highly on their radar, didn't they? Didn't work too well there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperfection Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I've done nothing wrong so i object to M15 monoring me. No they should not have any more powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Totally agree!! Can I also add that we talk about "freedom" or "equality", but when we look at people like these gunmen or these hate clerics, how many of us think they deserve freedom, equality or the ability to exercise their human rights? I think most people would say they don't deserve any of this. Unfortunately, like anything in life, the minority spoil it for the majority, and if this is a case where I have to give up my freedom to stop others abusing theirs then I'm willing to do that. that's my take on it, a little bit of suffrage may open the eyes of those who refuse to see. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Lets say they pass this law which allows some governing body access our email, letters or whatever else has been written above; I for one get anything between 50 and 100 emails a day, do you really think there will ever be the manpower for some self pleasuring geek to be sitting there reading my emails whilst I confess my undying love for the hairy bloke next door? These things will be automated computer programs to pick up on words/phrases which would set an alarm to look deeper. Yes it will extend beyond catching terrorists, but if it manages to take the law to these scumbags, manages to break up a paedophile ring or stops someone doing benefit fraud then I'm all for it. The thing is that all of your e-mails would probably be stored ad-infinitum. In the future, if something happens (not necessarily terrorism, because lets be realistic - eventually it will be expanded to everything, including how your insurance premiums are calculated) - an automated heuristic will categorise you based on your past 20 years of e-mail, and other communications, and round up 'suspects' based purely on an algorithm. If you think this is paranoia - these same algorithms are being employed right now on the likes of Facebook and Google to target advertising to you. Having a snoopers charter is all fine and well, but it will not deter the determined terrorist. It doesn't take a genius any more to write code which can obfuscate covert messages. The only people who will be inconvenienced are the law abiding. Likewise there needs to be oversight and CRIMINAL charges for people who misuse this data. But - when was the last time you saw a policeman or the CPS go to jail for lying or misrepresenting in court? This is a bit like gun licensing laws - who do they inconvenience? Only the law abiding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterford103 Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Any snooping laws passed will be immediatly bypassed by the terrorists , the only folks caught out will be those who haven't got the wit not to mention keywords .As an earlier poster said it's easy to talk about the weather , holidays ,work or items for sale all of which may have a hidden meaning or context - window dressing for the sheeple and Daily Fail readers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye18 Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Its all too 1984 ish for me.I dont want government sticking its nose in my business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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