guzzicat Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Is it just snobbishness to view the word "sleeved" stamped on a pair of barrels with disdain ? I bought a sleeved Webley side by side 12 ,The join is invisible ,it is totally save to shoot ,bulit in 1897 & finally shot out a few years ago the sleeving has given it another century of life,yet it,s value is less than a gun on it,s last legs bore wise after having the work done. Which would you rather use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow white Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 I have a lovely Charles Osborne 20 sxs ejector resleved have tried to sell and people look down there noses at it the joint is invisible but because it is resleved just snobbish it will be good for another hundred years if cleand.so the ansewer to your question is yes in my Appian it is snobbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Is it just snobbishness to view the word "sleeved" stamped on a pair of barrels with disdain ? I bought a sleeved Webley side by side 12 ,The join is invisible ,it is totally save to shoot ,bulit in 1897 & finally shot out a few years ago the sleeving has given it another century of life,yet it,s value is less than a gun on it,s last legs bore wise after having the work done. Which would you rather use? If you like the gun and you shoot well with it,where is the problem? It is a gun not a fashion accessory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 It's all about originality where value as a collectors piece is concerned- but for a gun to use then I always think that if the gun was worth going to all the trouble of resleeving then it must be of good quality to start with. I have a Pollard side lock built around 1890 that I could never have afforded had it not been resleeved-it's value would have put it out of my reach- but the devaluing effect of the sleeving has allowed me to afford to buy such a gun and gain great pleasure from using such a quality English piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 It's also about the quality of the sleeving ive shot guns that have been totally ruined the balance is all wrong and in one case the the barrel where very poorly regulated with the left barrels poi being 6' left and lower than the right, this meant the owner could hit a barn door with one barrel but shot well with the other equalling a useless gun. On the other hand I seen some outstanding workmanship the gun handled better than some of the originals ive used of that model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Sleeving is a repair that could be considered the same as having new wings and bonnet fitted to you car that have not been made by or fitted by the maker . If you have a gun with good original barrels that's worth £1500 ,the same gun with sleeved barrels might be worth only £1200 . The same gun with scrap or unsafe barrels is worth £300 as a stock action and forend . Although I have seen /sleeved very nice guns with good 26" barrels sleeved to 30" because of trendy prejudice against short barrels .So what dose that do to the value ? There have I agree been some appalling sleeving work done over the last 50 years as well as some that is undetectable .Talk of balance is one of the points that people make but then they never handled the gun new when its barrels measured .729" and had .040" and not the .740 with less that .020" it had before sleeving so how could they tell ? Having personal and professionally been involved with sleeving barrels since the late 70's I am well aware of the prejudice. But having sleeved between 1500 and 2000 guns of all makes and qualities for both trade [ even engraving "sleeved by xxxxxx" for them ] and private customers in the UK ,USA, Australia , Belgium , Holland and Sweden ,with virtually no complaints as to balance or shoot ability . Personally as gun for shooting well sleeved barrels are better than pitted ,thin, old ones every time . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Sleeved barrels done right are fine but why the word sleeved has to be stamped so is beyond me. Surely it could be more discreet. I mean its like it is being shouted to the world as though it was a leper, SLEEVED! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Most modern guns, foreign O/U and SBS, even very expensive ones! Have barrels built on the mono bloc system....which is pretty much the same as sleeving! The issue with English guns Is of originality...........as a comparison, how much would a 2014 original car cost? And how much would that same car cost/be worth if it was a damage repaired cat D? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzicat Posted May 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 My Webley is stamped on the action flats,so not visible,0f course the gun must be stamped for a true value, my McCrirrick was rebarreled by the maker & is engraved thus, as said sleeving as a shooting option keeps price down & at the end of the day keeps them safe to shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Not to go into along history but since the late 60's the word sleeved has been stamped on the flats in Birmingham ,on the new tubes in London . Most people would knot know a sleeved gun unless they were told so . Having said that there is always some smart soul who can "always see the joint " as one person pointed out to me that he could , "have a look at those barrels that have just come back from black ,I told him " .Picking up a set he did indeed point the joint .Which was pretty amazing really as the barrels he was looking had not ben sleeved . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manton Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Most modern guns, foreign O/U and SBS, even very expensive ones! Have barrels built on the mono bloc system....which is pretty much the same as sleeving! The issue with English guns Is of originality...........as a comparison, how much would a 2014 original car cost? And how much would that same car cost/be worth if it was a damage repaired cat D? The real difference between modern monoblock guns and a sleeved gun is that in monoblock guns the breech end is a solid steel block but in sleeved guns the barrels are sleeved into a mass of original joints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Most modern guns, foreign O/U and SBS, even very expensive ones! Have barrels built on the mono bloc system....which is pretty much the same as sleeving! The issue with English guns Is of originality...........as a comparison, how much would a 2014 original car cost? And how much would that same car cost/be worth if it was a damage repaired cat D? I take your point but how much would a1923 Morris be worth fully restored with non origial parts and much welding ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 I take your point but how much would a1923 Morris be worth fully restored with non origial parts and much welding ? I take your point too but how many 1923 Morris cars now exist? as opposed to the many thousands of older English guns in circulation? Rarity makes the 1923 Morris car valuable.........even a "spoodled up" one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 The real difference between modern monoblock guns and a sleeved gun is that in monoblock guns the breech end is a solid steel block but in sleeved guns the barrels are sleeved into a mass of original joints. I am aware of this! I did say they were "pretty much the same" i.e. tubes fitted into a breech end....as opposed to traditional English double gun barrel construction..........the point I was trying to make was that it is strange that the market values new guns made on the monobloc system..........but it doesn't value older guns renovated in a similar way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manton Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 As a person who is interested in vintage guns I have a problem with the "authenticity" of a sleeved gun. By this I mean that a Tolley wildfowling gun with sleeved barrels is not quite in the spirit of a Tolley gun to me with two nondescript tubes, the shooting qualities of which may be nothing like the originals As an engineer I also have questions about the process itself . For asthetic reasons the joint must finish smooth so the barrels must be of reduced diameter to fit into the original breech, this is fine as they are reinforced by the original section of the barrels but what about the area exactly at this shoulder where the barrel is in fact of a reduced diameter. Surely this must be an area where stress will concentrate if the gun is dropped or as it is fired. i am well aware of the superiority of modern steels and the fact that the guns pass proof but still ! perhaps this is why the proof house marks them as sleeved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blasterjudd Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think this is all about English snobbery with English guns as Americans pay much the same for a gun sleeved or not sleeved ....... just take a look on the Web ! If an English guns barrels are badly pitted surely it's worth keeping and getting another life times use from it I think sleeving a barrel is a very small price to pay for a well made English gun which is probably far better quality than any new shotgun produced today and even when devalued it allows more people to own a slice of real english craftsmanship without hurting their pockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpowder Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I think this is all about English snobbery with English guns as Americans pay much the same for a gun sleeved or not sleeved ....... just take a look on the Web ! If an English guns barrels are badly pitted surely it's worth keeping and getting another life times use from it I think sleeving a barrel is a very small price to pay for a well made English gun which is probably far better quality than any new shotgun produced today and even when devalued it allows more people to own a slice of real english craftsmanship without hurting their pockets. Here here. Blackpowder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye18 Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I think this is all about English snobbery with English guns as Americans pay much the same for a gun sleeved or not sleeved ....... just take a look on the Web ! If an English guns barrels are badly pitted surely it's worth keeping and getting another life times use from it I think sleeving a barrel is a very small price to pay for a well made English gun which is probably far better quality than any new shotgun produced today and even when devalued it allows more people to own a slice of real english craftsmanship without hurting their pockets. very well said fella! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyshooter Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I bought a Thomas Wild sleeved s/s from Wabbitbosher a week ago, a really pretty little side lock, double triggered gun . Because of family illness I have not had a real chance to try it out as of yet, only fired it once with each barrel. First a very big thank you to Wabbitbosher, feels like I have stolen the gun from him, I'm so pleased with it. I have not had the chance to witness snobbery over the sleeve issue, and really do not give a 8x28gram load what any body thinks about it, just know, I am shooting a gun that will be safe to me and with people near to me when it is fired. To look over the fence of a gun that had been used several years ago (not found out the age as of yet, as no serial number visible, only the address of where it was made) and will still be serviceable for many years to come is more than enough for me. I have a sleeved gun I love, the snobby folk only have a dream, tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Its not snobbery at all I'd prefer something original and will pay more for something that is i know that way if i look after it its always going to be an acceptable piece to a collector in a few years time and there for the gun is likely to hold its value. Unless its of any other merit just another sleeved boxlock non ejector is going to be of little interest to a collector and there for its only market is to shooters and maybe not going to hold its value so well. If we were valuing all guns on their ability to shoot cartridges we'd all be shooting biakals. All this thread to me is recognizing which is no new phenomenon is that there are many many guns being sold that are exceedingly high quality compared to many modern guns, with a connection to our sporting history and manufacturing heritage that you can't buy anywhere else, for very little money which handle and perform better than modern guns. Accept it and run with it and take the opportunity to snap up some excellent guns for next to nothing. boxlock non ejectors are looked down on some how, slow, boring and two a penny, and even excellent ones rarely fetch more than £1000, but they make fantastic guns i solely use BLNE on driven game now and find it no handicap yet the market values them significantly lower than ejector guns so i can pick up a fantastic BLNE for less than a average BLE. I have a lovely Charles Osborne 20 sxs ejector resleved have tried to sell and people look down there noses at it the joint is invisible but because it is resleved just snobbish it will be good for another hundred years if cleand.so the ansewer to your question is yes in my Appian it is snobbish. With 20 bores becoming more and more popular I'm surprised you struggle to sell it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Personally if I was spending into the thousands on a sxs I would want it completely original.if I was spending a few hundred on a gun for a bit of pigeon or rough shooting then I would not be worried about sleeves.its not snobbery I just like things that cost a good deal to be right.when I bought my classic car I bought it with the factory straight six engine and not a retro fitted v8 or diesel.each to their own I guess.but snobbery it ain't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsDad Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Bostonmick has hit it on the head. Its originality that counts. Hence the price difference between highly similar guns but where the sleeved one is of a lesser value. No one is looking down their noses at someone with a sleeved gun; the UK market for English guns reflects what the vast majority are looking for; and that is a gun that is as close to original as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpowder Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Accept it and run with it and take the opportunity to snap up some excellent guns for next to nothing. boxlock non ejectors are looked down on some how, slow, boring and two a penny, and even excellent ones rarely fetch more than £1000, but they make fantastic guns i solely use BLNE on driven game now and find it no handicap yet the market values them significantly lower than ejector guns so i can pick up a fantastic BLNE for less than a average BLE. Interesting post DW good quality British box lock non ejectors are exceptionally cheap. How often do we need ejectors when pigeon or rough shooting, seldom I would say and most of us pick up our spent shells anyway so just as easy to slip them from the breech and into your pocket as it is to catch them on ejection or scrabble on the ground for them. Blackpowder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 So you are fortunate enough to inherit a " best London " or even a reasonable "named" gun, but the barrels are in a dangerous state . New barrels will cost over £7000 sleeving under £2000 . Come on folks we often hear quibbling on this site over a few quid difference in prices people charge , so where is the sense In spending more money than is needed , lets be honest would you know if the man on the next peg had a sleeved gun ? Sleeving has given thousands of old guns a new lease of life and back in the 70's when I first got involved it was a widely held belief that a sleeving job would give the gun another 20 or so years use . That said I regularly see guns that were sleeved in the early 60's still going strong , Personally I would put far more trust in a set of sleeved barrels than a repaired broken stock no matter what it is glued with . But every one has their own thoughts . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 I have take a guy out who had a sleeved gun he bought it for the action in truth, a nice London made side lock ejector, as we chatted it became apparent what he'd done. He want a nice English sidelock to his spec he could afford to buy one, so he found a suitable "gun" that had a broke stock and dangerous barrels. He had the action serviced all new innards, the barrels where sleeved to his choice of 32 inches, and the stock made to his dimensions in lovely walnut. He ended up with a beautiful gun made to his spec for a lot less than a new one and this gun will be just as reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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