guzzicat Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Out. It never worked, French farmers pouring diesel on English lamb is only one instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simjakcal Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 its a mess so im out ! so if we do get a total out vote to leave. How long exactly will it take us to get out ? we talking days weeks months or years ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armsid Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) i voted for trade with europe in the,70,s that has gne by the wayside and so has all our industry no engineering no tractors no lorries no car industry at the level it was and nowhere to take apprentices now it has all gone owned by the germans .redcar steelworks has closed and reports that german steel is on par but their energy costs are half ours no level playing field out asap Edited October 12, 2015 by armsid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 OUT!!! The auditors have refused to sign off the EU accounts for the past twenty years because of fraud and corruption and I can't imagine voting to belong to anything so overtly corrupt, never mind paying millions a day into it. .Also, how come it always seems like it's Germany that calls the shots? Out!!, I say, out! out! out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 If Europe was what it was supposed to be, doing what it was supposed to do, I would vote to stay. To be honest its just a disaster, on every level, and it can't go on like this The experiment has failed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Out, and the sooner the better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris1961 Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) OUT ASAP use the money to fund the army police and nhs Edited October 12, 2015 by chris1961 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eieieio Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 I used to think that we should stay in, now I think we should get out. Too many economically weak countries have been allowed in who flood markets with cheap labour. Immigration is a massive issue too putting pressure on resources for our little island. There are also silly rules and loopholes - For example, British pig farmers have to rear to higher welfare standards (and rightly so) but farmers in Denmark don't, yet Danish producers can sell to the same markets so just undercut as their lower welfare standards have lower costs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 We have as much trading rights in Europe as Mexico has and we are supposed to be a member of the EU. So leaving will not disadvantage us in any way and will save us billions every year. What is not to like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsonicnat Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Look at it this way, the yanks never joined, they cope ok as we did before.. Only taking us for a gravy train anyway,, it was a trade issue, now its not.. its running us with out having any say in it really, Germans and French in bed together trying to bleed us dry.. GET OUT.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 We have as much trading rights in Europe as Mexico has and we are supposed to be a member of the EU. So leaving will not disadvantage us in any way and will save us billions every year. What is not to like? I'm sorry, but I've heard this argument many times but it makes no logical sense to use it as an example of why we should leave. Mexico has a free trade agreement with the EU, of which we are a member so therefore it can trade freely directly with the UK, if we leave the EU we no longer have a free trade agreement with mexico. What bit of that is better if we leave? Ok, some will say we can create our own free trading agreements, but that requires bureaucracy, money and time on both sides (assuming that Mexico would want a free trade agreement with the UK in the first place), and in the end we would just agree to the same terms and standards as the EU requires - largely because we will have done that with the EU to continue trading with them. There are lots of things wrong with the EU currently but trading with Mexico is not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I'm sorry, but I've heard this argument many times but it makes no logical sense to use it as an example of why we should leave. Mexico has a free trade agreement with the EU, of which we are a member so therefore it can trade freely directly with the UK, if we leave the EU we no longer have a free trade agreement with mexico. What bit of that is better if we leave? Ok, some will say we can create our own free trading agreements, but that requires bureaucracy, money and time on both sides (assuming that Mexico would want a free trade agreement with the UK in the first place), and in the end we would just agree to the same terms and standards as the EU requires - largely because we will have done that with the EU to continue trading with them. There are lots of things wrong with the EU currently but trading with Mexico is not one of them. I believe the point he was trying to make is that we can arrange trade agreements for ourselves with Europe that don`t put us at a disadvantage, just as Mexico has. And without having to follow the at times ridiculous policies that the EU imposes on us in other walks of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kelly Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I have no idea which is the best way to go. What I am looking forward to is seeing the pro European argument being made in the run up to the vote. All we ever hear is what's wrong with Europe, what we never hear is what we gain from being part of Europe. The vague idea of free trade, well OK, but I can't believe we couldn't negotiate that anyway if it's mutually beneficial. There must be a reason to stay in Europe, but I have no idea what it really is. Hope the pro EU campaign is well run and puts a good case, because without a good case I can't imagine there's any chance we;ll stay in, and that might be a mistake. Time for the politicians to go to work and do what we pay them for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) OUT OUT OUT. We can only take so much pure contempt for our own aspirations, self respect and way of life. Too many European and British MPs have belligerently pulled our trousers down too often about human rights, race, religion and immigration etc. Other countries protest about government abuse of their voters much better than we do. EDIT: Perhaps they are thinking of the defence aspect, IE we are a bigger adversary in Europe than outside it. Edited October 13, 2015 by Dave-G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I'm sorry, but I've heard this argument many times but it makes no logical sense to use it as an example of why we should leave. Mexico has a free trade agreement with the EU, of which we are a member so therefore it can trade freely directly with the UK, if we leave the EU we no longer have a free trade agreement with mexico. What bit of that is better if we leave? Ok, some will say we can create our own free trading agreements, but that requires bureaucracy, money and time on both sides (assuming that Mexico would want a free trade agreement with the UK in the first place), and in the end we would just agree to the same terms and standards as the EU requires - largely because we will have done that with the EU to continue trading with them. There are lots of things wrong with the EU currently but trading with Mexico is not one of them. we wouldn't have to pay millions in membership on top of the bureaucracy, all of which would go unaccounted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) IMO you have to look at Europe itself and say to yourself is this an organisation thats worth being in. Its like a headless chicken, there is no leadership and no policy for moving the process forward. Its stagnant and leaderless. Nothing gets done and its getting worse not better. Edited October 13, 2015 by Vince Green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett1985 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 its an OUT vote from me. billions of pounds leaving the UK yearly to go to other countries while our own country suffers isn't what the EU should be about. in 2013 we contributed 13.5 billion euros and directly received back just 6.3 billion euros. yes, you could argue that there are other benefits such as free trade and European courts etc, but is that all really worth 7.2 billion euros? my opinion is probably not. and lets be honest, we could still trade with whoever we wished. if we are not in the EU, we cant be dictated to by them over trading. worst case scenario would be that Germany dictate that other EU citizens are not to trade with us... but that wont happen as there are too many German owned businesses within the UK. they're too smart to cut their nose off to spite their face. the real question though, is will we get this referendum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 we wouldn't have to pay millions in membership on top of the bureaucracy, all of which would go unaccounted for.That is a separate matter. I was addressing the [non]issue of the Mexico trade agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpkiller Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 At a guess mexico isnt in the eu so non of its constraints apply so they can do whatever deal they like. Being in the eu traders have alot of constraints and costs which isnt really a free market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I'm sorry, but I've heard this argument many times but it makes no logical sense to use it as an example of why we should leave. Mexico has a free trade agreement with the EU, of which we are a member so therefore it can trade freely directly with the UK, if we leave the EU we no longer have a free trade agreement with mexico. What bit of that is better if we leave? Ok, some will say we can create our own free trading agreements, but that requires bureaucracy, money and time on both sides (assuming that Mexico would want a free trade agreement with the UK in the first place), and in the end we would just agree to the same terms and standards as the EU requires - largely because we will have done that with the EU to continue trading with them. There are lots of things wrong with the EU currently but trading with Mexico is not one of them. You have got it completely wrong. We have as much trading rights in Europe as Mexico does. Mexico goods are subject to the same controls as British goods. Mexico pays nothing to the EU. We on the other hand are the second biggest net contributor after Germany! We leave the EU our goods will still be subject to the same amount of controls, but we get the billions we give to Europe to play with in the budget instead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banger123 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Out as it stands at the moment. If fundamental change is not forthcoming (which I very much doubt will be) then I can see no point in staying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 You have got it completely wrong. We have as much trading rights in Europe as Mexico does. Mexico goods are subject to the same controls as British goods. Mexico pays nothing to the EU. We on the other hand are the second biggest net contributor after Germany! We leave the EU our goods will still be subject to the same amount of controls, but we get the billions we give to Europe to play with in the budget instead! With all due respect I haven't got anything wrong, in fact you have largely reiterated what I have said. The EU isn't just about trade, it is a economic AND political union, whereas countries that only have FTAs with the EU (Mexico, Peru, Columbia, South Korea) are countries that agree to EU terms (laws) to allow them to trade freely (or cheaply) with the massive EU economy. There are also countries such as Iceland and Norway that are outside the EU but in the EEA so they also have to adhere to trade and economic legislation, but they also pay a contribution to the EU (it works out that Norway pay more per capita than the UK). If we leave we will in all likelihood join (or remain in) the EEA, most of out trading legislation will remain the same as the EUs AND we will probably pay a contribution. So we won't necessarily, as you suggested, save billions by leaving. On the other hand the EU as a economic force is undeniably powerful globally so that as a group we have more negotiating power than individually (it's no coincidence that countries with FTAs change their rules to conform and not the other way round). I think a more logical argument to have is in comparing the potential benefits between remaining in, or leaving, the EU as a political and economic union rather than pointing out the similarities of being in a trade agreement. For me, and leaving aside trade, I think I understand the use and benefits of centralised banking, the free movement of goods, money and people (although the enlarged area was rushed and counterproductive in many ways) and the ability the EU has to actually make tangible changes on a large scale that wouldn't otherwise be possible or practical (in the environment for example), but I'm not comfortable with the un-accountability of the EU decision makers, the push for further social and political union and the direction the council want to take us. I also think it is bloated, tired and not fit for purpose in it's current form but I wouldn't like to see it implode as that would be a disaster for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 the real question though, is will we get this referendum? I believe there has to be due to the way it has been put forward. I dont think they can back out of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rimotu66 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I have voted 'out' with my heart, I am an Englishman not British and not European ( that's how I feel so no need to correct me). I am not clever enough to work out if we would be better in or out though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) With all due respect I haven't got anything wrong, in fact you have largely reiterated what I have said. The EU isn't just about trade, it is a economic AND political union, whereas countries that only have FTAs with the EU (Mexico, Peru, Columbia, South Korea) are countries that agree to EU terms (laws) to allow them to trade freely (or cheaply) with the massive EU economy. There are also countries such as Iceland and Norway that are outside the EU but in the EEA so they also have to adhere to trade and economic legislation, but they also pay a contribution to the EU (it works out that Norway pay more per capita than the UK). If we leave we will in all likelihood join (or remain in) the EEA, most of out trading legislation will remain the same as the EUs AND we will probably pay a contribution. So we won't necessarily, as you suggested, save billions by leaving. On the other hand the EU as a economic force is undeniably powerful globally so that as a group we have more negotiating power than individually (it's no coincidence that countries with FTAs change their rules to conform and not the other way round). I think a more logical argument to have is in comparing the potential benefits between remaining in, or leaving, the EU as a political and economic union rather than pointing out the similarities of being in a trade agreement. For me, and leaving aside trade, I think I understand the use and benefits of centralised banking, the free movement of goods, money and people (although the enlarged area was rushed and counterproductive in many ways) and the ability the EU has to actually make tangible changes on a large scale that wouldn't otherwise be possible or practical (in the environment for example), but I'm not comfortable with the un-accountability of the EU decision makers, the push for further social and political union and the direction the council want to take us. I also think it is bloated, tired and not fit for purpose in it's current form but I wouldn't like to see it implode as that would be a disaster for all of us. That says it all Norway is not even in the top 5!!! We should get out and stay out! Let it implode if it likes. France and Germany will not stand for total collapse so it will keep on. But we will have an instant budget surplus! Edited October 13, 2015 by secretagentmole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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