poontang Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 Because I find it ironic, to say the least, when you complain about 'unelected bureaucrats' in Brussels but you are happy to be a subject to an old German lady and suffer in silence 'lords' who are also unelected and most of them have a very murky past. As others have mentioned you really should read up on British history. I'm quite happy with our monarchy and style of government, it may not be perfect but then nothing ever is. Anyway, if you don't like it, well you know where the door is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 Steady Gents. We don't want to get this thread closed down due people getting personal. Expression of views is OK but I can see the moderators starting to twitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) Because I find it ironic, to say the least, when you complain about 'unelected bureaucrats' in Brussels but you are happy to be a subject to an old German lady and suffer in silence 'lords' who are also unelected and most of them have a very murky past. I wasn`t aware the queen was born in Germany. Irrespective of her family heritage she`s as British as I am. And yes technically we`re all her subjects. However the amount of power she wields these days is mainly ceremonial. In theory there are actions she could take but the likelihood of her choosing to refuse to sign a Bill into Law, or refusing to allow a PM to form a government is pretty much nil. As for the Lords they too have very restricted power. They can delay Bills and push for amendments but they can`t actually stop them passing. They`re also elected btw, just not by the public. I would suggest that you do some serious reading on politics and the monarchy. Edited February 22, 2016 by Danger-Mouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 I wasn`t aware the queen was born in Germany. Irrespective of her family heritage she`s as British as I am. And yes technically we`re all her subjects. However the amount of power she wields these days is mainly ceremonial. In theory there are actions she could take but the likelihood of her choosing to refuse to sign a Bill into Law, or refusing to allow a PM to form a government is pretty much nil. As for the Lords they too have very restricted power. They can delay Bills and push for amendments but they can`t actually stop them passing. They`re also elected btw, just not by the public. I would suggest that you do some serious reading on politics and the monarchy. Hmm, in that case EU commissioners are elected, just not by the public too. My problem with the commission isn't so much the appointment of the commissioners but the power the president has - if he doesn't agree with your countrie's appointment then that commissioner is pushed out of the circle of influence. It is too small, cliquey and open to corruption for my liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 As stated above please don't let it degenerate into personal spats, It's a good thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Hmm, in that case EU commissioners are elected, just not by the public too. My problem with the commission isn't so much the appointment of the commissioners but the power the president has - if he doesn't agree with your countrie's appointment then that commissioner is pushed out of the circle of influence. It is too small, cliquey and open to corruption for my liking. True, but EU commissioners formulate policy. The Lords may only amend it. That`s quite a significant difference. Plus commissioners are supposed to act in the interests of the union, not their own individual nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 I see this morning a number of business leaders are supporting the in campaign, I wonder whose side they are on?? Same goes for Corbyn really, there will be a number of people who vote the opposite way, although the out campaign also has a number of divisive characters.. If only Boris was t campaigning to be PM, for me the decision would be a lot simpler without the background noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Watched another programme on it last night.... It would be nice if the 2 parties would just give us the facts rather than just trying to scare us into siding with their option. But that's politics for you, We will all be sick of it by the time of the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Trying to understand how the EU actually works is a very worth while exercise in this debate because it has never been explained to most of us. We "sort of" assume we understand how laws get made and things get decided but its more complicated than most of us would think. You have the European Parliament in Brussels full of highly paid MEPs but they basically do nothing and have no real say about anything. Its a talking shop but all they do is talk. Smoke and mirrors, its mostly a cosmetic sham.. The rest is a bit of a mystery really because a lot goes on behind closed doors . A lot of directives appear out of the mist with no input or consultation from any elected representative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 The way the EU operates is to give lots of money to poorer countries so that they can afford to buy goods made by the richer countries, and also to make these goods for richer countries at cheaper rates resulting in more profits. They also impose laws on all countries veiled as ecological measures such as imposing a 20% rate of green energy which bottom line means that millions of us have to suffer the negative effects of wind farms while a few well connected businessmen make a shed load of money out of it. If elected government ministers such as Michael Gove are saying that they are powerless to stop EU imposed laws what chance have the rest of us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Well seeing what date the vote is, alot of people will be sat infront a tv watching champions league final, and a fair few people will be travelling to Glastonbury with there wellies at the ready for a weekend of live music.. How many of them are going to be voting. And its a fair few people..... Also I dont get why some people get personal on here, we all have an opinion and a right to it. Its amazing what sat infront a keyboard or smart phone can do to some people.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Well seeing what date the vote is, alot of people will be sat infront a tv watching champions league final, and a fair few people will be travelling to Glastonbury with there wellies at the ready for a weekend of live music.. How many of them are going to be voting. And its a fair few people..... Also I dont get why some people get personal on here, we all have an opinion and a right to it. Its amazing what sat infront a keyboard or smart phone can do to some people.. It won't really make any difference, polls are open all day, how many people go to Glastonbury? 100,000? Of those who won't be able to vote?... Weeing in the sea... If we get a 50% turnout, that's the best part of 30M people.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Watched another programme on it last night.... It would be nice if the 2 parties would just give us the facts rather than just trying to scare us into siding with their option. But that's politics for you, We will all be sick of it by the time of the vote. I totally agree that each side peddles fear and use cherry picked statistics to back up their opinions, It's very off putting and makes both sides look like car salesmen (no offence to those in the car trade, but you know what I mean). The fundamental problem is there are no hard comparable facts out there, it is just conjecture based on possible outcomes, and each side uses worst and best case scenarios to hammer home their point of view. If other similar countries had gone through this then we could have a benchmark to work from, but this is groundbreaking in it's implications and scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Trying to understand how the EU actually works is a very worth while exercise in this debate because it has never been explained to most of us. We "sort of" assume we understand how laws get made and things get decided but its more complicated than most of us would think. You have the European Parliament in Brussels full of highly paid MEPs but they basically do nothing and have no real say about anything. Its a talking shop but all they do is talk. Smoke and mirrors, its mostly a cosmetic sham.. The rest is a bit of a mystery really because a lot goes on behind closed doors . A lot of directives appear out of the mist with no input or consultation from any elected representative. I totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 I totally agree that each side peddles fear and use cherry picked statistics to back up their opinions, It's very off putting and makes both sides look like car salesmen (no offence to those in the car trade, but you know what I mean). The fundamental problem is there are no hard comparable facts out there, it is just conjecture based on possible outcomes, and each side uses worst and best case scenarios to hammer home their point of view. If other similar countries had gone through this then we could have a benchmark to work from, but this is groundbreaking in it's implications and scale. This. Truthfully there is no easy comparison side by side list of good and bad. Without being disrespectful most people are looking to be told what to think, they want a smoking gun argument that makes their choice easy. It is a complicated issue and most don't want to have to think about it because that means having to learn a geat deal of new and complicated things, most of which is frankly dull and boring. We want our say in deciding, but without having to put in the leg work. That is why we have sound bite tabloid politics. People will follow a figure of trust, be it a family member, public figure, successful people, passionate personality, etc. The campaign will be one of big dramatic statements because that works, capture the mind of the disaffected with bold issues and that's enough for both sides. The better informed decide for themselves anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 The U K has a long history of conflict with our European neighbors, the French see us as a traditional enemy & take every opportunity to stick the knife in our backs when they think it is safe to do so, the Germans have been defeated by us twice in the last century & bear a grudge, the East Europeans are immerging from behind the ‘Iron Curtain’ convinced we are evil imperialists, the Spanish are still smarting from the miserably failed armada & the Irish like to blow us up. Should we bail out of the EU this bunch of foreign miscreants will quickly take their big long awaited chance & gang up on their common foe. Staying in the EU ‘though unpleasant’ is our only opportunity to give as good as we get whilst keep these reprehensible malefactors in their rightful subservient place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubble Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 The U K has a long history of conflict with our European neighbors, the French see us as a traditional enemy & take every opportunity to stick the knife in our backs when they think it is safe to do so, the Germans have been defeated by us twice in the last century & bear a grudge, the East Europeans are immerging from behind the ‘Iron Curtain’ convinced we are evil imperialists, the Spanish are still smarting from the miserably failed armada & the Irish like to blow us up. Should we bail out of the EU this bunch of foreign miscreants will quickly take their big long awaited chance & gang up on their common foe. Staying in the EU ‘though unpleasant’ is our only opportunity to give as good as we get whilst keep these reprehensible malefactors in their rightful subservient place. What a strange post, especially the last paragraph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted February 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 The U K has a long history of conflict with our European neighbors, the French see us as a traditional enemy & take every opportunity to stick the knife in our backs when they think it is safe to do so, the Germans have been defeated by us twice in the last century & bear a grudge, the East Europeans are immerging from behind the ‘Iron Curtain’ convinced we are evil imperialists, the Spanish are still smarting from the miserably failed armada & the Irish like to blow us up. Should we bail out of the EU this bunch of foreign miscreants will quickly take their big long awaited chance & gang up on their common foe. Staying in the EU ‘though unpleasant’ is our only opportunity to give as good as we get whilst keep these reprehensible malefactors in their rightful subservient place. In his novel '1984', George Orwell describes a future in which the people are controlled through mass propaganda, surveillance and the constant rewriting of facts. Bit like the EU. Leaving the EU would allow Britain to trade more freely with the rest of the world. It's also important to remember that Britain doesn't need to be a member of the EU in order to trade with it. Given that the EU sells far more to us than we do to them, the remaining EU member states will seek a trade agreement with the UK that seeks to maintain the same level of free exchange of goods, services and capital as is the case today. First and foremost, Britain's prosperity (and therefore jobs) depend on free trade across the globe rather, the benefits of political union are less apparent. If the UK became independent again, it could also capitalize on its Commonwealth ties to have free trade deals with the likes of India, Australia and Malaysia, all Commonwealth countries the EU has made no headway with. As a country that traditionally embraces trade, the UK could add a range of other emerging markets such as China, Indonesia and the UAE - again ones that the EU is yet to agree terms with - and offer UK businesses a real competitive advantage over their rivals in mainland Europe and beyond. The EU is not well set-up to arrange these types of deals because they usually require the approval of all 28 EU member states. Any country can scupper a deal if it doesn't see the benefits, which is unfortunate for a traditional free-trader like the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Watched another programme on it last night.... It would be nice if the 2 parties would just give us the facts rather than just trying to scare us into siding with their option. But that's politics for you, We will all be sick of it by the time of the vote. That is EXACTLY what i want.......im voting out...but still want more facts............i dont want to be lied to anymore...like when we went in...no alternative agendas anymore.....i expect if we go out, there will be "pain"...but i can put up with that for a time knowing we again have the power of guiding our own destiny...........what makes me vote out is looking forward into the future of the EU if we remain...and that really worries me......it fills me with dread watching Europe become a huge socialist mega state with the rulers based in Brussels living the life of rielly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett1985 Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 The U K has a long history of conflict with our European neighbors, the French see us as a traditional enemy & take every opportunity to stick the knife in our backs when they think it is safe to do so, the Germans have been defeated by us twice in the last century & bear a grudge, the East Europeans are immerging from behind the ‘Iron Curtain’ convinced we are evil imperialists, the Spanish are still smarting from the miserably failed armada & the Irish like to blow us up. Should we bail out of the EU this bunch of foreign miscreants will quickly take their big long awaited chance & gang up on their common foe. Staying in the EU ‘though unpleasant’ is our only opportunity to give as good as we get whilst keep these reprehensible malefactors in their rightful subservient place. FML Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Hasn't taken Dave long to start taking personal swipes at Boris, I find it quite loathsome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 My views are far more simple than the vast majority of those on this forum lucky enough to understand the matter and fight for their corner (one way or the other) - that we were lied to by the Government to trick us into entering will cost them my vote no matter how much they try and hoodwink us again into staying-it's simply a matter or principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 What I do hope for is a decent turnout, Something like the Scots did for their in/out vote. Anything below 60% will be sad for something as important as this, I fear apathy will set in and it will be around 40% You will then get people whinging no matter which way it goes and when you ask them if they voted, the answer will be no! It's the same at general elections, the people that whinge the most are those that didn't vote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djrwood Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 OUT!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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