mick miller Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 A future after Westminster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 A future after Westminster.That would come under the heading 'lining their own pockets'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Oh yes, how silly of me. Well, maybe just like a Turkey wouldn't vote to keep Christmas... See clearly I shouldn't question the moral compass of our elected representatives, if the whole expenses thing taught me anything it taught me that they're mostly jolly decent selfless types. Who was it that said that the very desire in someone to become a politician should preclude them from ever becoming one? Edited February 19, 2016 by mick miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Oh yes, how silly of me. Well, maybe just like a Turkey wouldn't vote to keep Christmas... See clearly I shouldn't question the moral compass of our elected representatives, if the whole expenses thing taught me anything it taught me that they're mostly jolly decent selfless types. Who was it that said that the very desire in someone to become a politician should preclude them from ever becoming one? Bill Connely famously used that line in one if his jokes, however the lining of pockets is a far too simplistic argument. Too late tonight for sensible posts so shall leave it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 I know we dont know the numbers, but why do you all think that the majority MPs appear to be Europhile? I don't buy the 'lining their own pockets' argument so what makes them think we should remain in? Just because you don't buy it, doesn't mean it's not so. I think there are a few reasons. Some undoubtedly see the EU as a career progression, and some have vested interests where a massive pool of cheap labour is good for them and their paymasters. Government ministers can easily offload difficult decisions and place the blame for those decisions on to the EU. It's much easier to stick with the status quo for many of them, they don't have to work so hard. I think there are plenty of sceptics in the Conservative party, not so many in the leftist parties, but as the EU is a socialist construct that's hardly surprising. To those who see us as 'Little Englander's' I would say that we are the second largest economy by GDP in the EU and on target to overtake Germany in the next 10/15 years. Does anyone honestly think Germany couldn't make it on it's own? Of course it could, and so can the UK... easily. And let's not forget if the UK were to leave, the EU would not be the largest trading bloc anymore. It's quite likely the whole sorry shambles would collapse. Had this ever been about trade, and trade alone I would have no problem with staying in. It isn't about trade, it never has been. In fact the demise of the UK's coal, steel and heavy industry can almost certainly be linked to our membership of what was the EEC. Ted Heath was warned by senior civil servants of the way Europe was heading. He knew full well that the 1975 referendum was really about a federal Europe, not a trading agreement, yet he chose to lie to the British public and sold the deal as a 'common market'. David Cameron is lying again. Without treaty change his 'special deal' means nothing, absolutely nothing. It can be overturned at any time by the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 I know we dont know the numbers, but why do you all think that the majority MPs appear to be Europhile? I don't buy the 'lining their own pockets' argument so what makes them think we should remain in? Actually, at the moment there are more Conservative MPs wanting to leave than there are those that want to stay. At least according to the BBC. Labour`s party line is stay but MPs are not bound to follow that line. There doesn`t seem to be a list as to which choice individual MPs will opt for atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 OUT, and take all the laws and rules the EU imposed on us with them - just who do they think they are! Our Country was GREAT Britain before snide politicians sold us out with dodgy deals and weasel words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 I vote irrelevant. Doesn't matter what YOU vote. The above could well be right. The vast proportion / ratio of OUT votes on here don’t match the results of the opinion polls that I have seen that show the public opinion of a 50/ 50 split or near. Will this vote be swayed by a small amount of politicians of the royal family working behind the scenes? Last night I saw on the box that they reckoned that if Boris was to come out against staying then Dave’s goose could be cooked within his own party. Surely the royals must be concerned with how this will go because in the future this country will just become a county of Europe and they will be demoted to nothing. All it seems to me is just a struggle to get to the trough first. I’m sure that behind the scenes a lot of strings are being pulled and palms greased to get a bit of turn over the other camp. The way that I look at it is that Dave is not asking for a lot and this is being resisted so much so that he wont get a lot and most of it will be turned back in the future. If he can’t get the small things now what chance has anyone in the future? It is a situation that in the future the nature of the country nature will be buckled and morphed into something that isn’t what it is now or has been. Is this what we really want where more children speak a foreign language in a class and our children will have to observe foreign ideology and norms of custom. Will all of this end up in a disfigured mess of a country? I think that for these reasons I am in the OUT box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) The decline of our heavy industry started long before the European project got underway and was always on a one way ticket. I think the UK is still something like the world's 7th or 8th largest manufacturing nation globally and our creative industries are getting on towards being bigger employers than heavy traditional industry ever was, yet we don't have the romantic attachment to them as we do to coal mining, ship building, etc despite being healthier, cleaner and much more socially integrated. Odd really. I agree with you Poontang that the UK absolutely could flourish incredibly with or without being part of the EU, however so long as we have the sort of misleading nonsense as permeates most of this thread talking the UK down we are crippling ourselves. So many people talk about the UK in what is almost some sort of misty eyed obituary of past greatness. It is toxic and harmful. A Nation thrives on the attitude and industry of its citizens, it doesn't have to rely on a suit in a parliament as ultimately they are steared by us, but sadly too many in the UK just don't want to roll their sleeves up and get stuck in, they want to abrogate responsibility to somebody else to do it for them. That's why we blame the bosses, the banks, politicians, bereaucrats and technocrats because it is an easy cop out. We can build conspiracy theories of how it all doesn't matter because some big boy ultimately decides what happens, it is all utter tripe. The rhetoric of dependency, fear and ignorance. Silence the whiners, the naysayers and the doom mongers and we might just discover that this is a brilliant country whether inside the EU or not. That for me would be a much more valuable prize. That rant aside, still say out Edited February 20, 2016 by grrclark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjh Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 undecided i can see benefits on both sides, for me it comes down to how will leaving or staying benefit my family and my country in the long term in key areas Jobs Education Health Trade & Industry Regulations Human Rights, Justice, life quality security my vote will be decided on who i think offers the best on these key issues, looking forward to the debate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Your posts were fine until that nonsense. Little Englander indeed. Truth obviously hurts.. Salgeons plans were based on 'enormous oil reserves ' which Scotland don't have and the oil that is there was too expensive to extract at over 100 USD, I'm sure you are awar the oil price e has ore than halved since then. Additionally Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are Net deductors from public coffers, even more so when you factor in that the biggest employers in Scotland and NI are the state. Scotland does not have a self sustainable economy, neither do NI or Wales and England would be financially better off without them. These are facts, not nonsense, but I can see how they may be unpalatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossberg-operator Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 As a migrant: IN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) We accepted migrants before the EU, it's just you had to have a skill. Father, German, Engineer. Mother, herself a union of English/French & Polish, Nurse. Unlike vast swathes of Europe, especially eastern Europe, the British have always been rather open to the idea of useful economic migrants. Edited February 20, 2016 by mick miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krugerandsmith Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 With Dave about to return with our future in is hands (or the EU's) and a possible referendum in June, what are the views of PW members? IN or OUT For what its worth my vote is OUT OUT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsbob Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 As far as I am aware Migrants will not be allowed the vote on the basis this is a matter that can only be decided be the indigenous population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 OUT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsonicnat Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 The Trouble is,,The people who want IN will Vote... The people who could turn it round as it is in all voting in this country,,They are too idle to use their vote.. What started me off on this early stage is,, If you look at how many people have looked at this Thread,and how many have voted,its the old,, I cannot be bothered to type in one word. IN or OUT. This attitude is what will probably sink us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodp Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Truth obviously hurts.. Salgeons plans were based on 'enormous oil reserves ' which Scotland don't have and the oil that is there was too expensive to extract at over 100 USD, I'm sure you are awar the oil price e has ore than halved since then. Additionally Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are Net deductors from public coffers, even more so when you factor in that the biggest employers in Scotland and NI are the state. Scotland does not have a self sustainable economy, neither do NI or Wales and England would be financially better off without them. These are facts, not nonsense, but I can see how they may be unpalatable. Why do you keep bringing Scotland up, and using it as some sort of precedent? Everyone knew Scottish independence was a folly and doomed to failure to start with !! And, why do you assume England will suffer from the weakening of sterling? Have it crossed your mind we could (probably will) get stronger ? England isn't a nation of folk who like to sit in the sun outside cafes drinking wine for two hours at lunch. We're a nation of fighters, go getters (a lot of us at least). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Who says Sterling will get weaker? We leave and the first thing that happens is that the Monopoly Money that is the Euro will collapse as we won't be pumping billions in keeping it afloat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houseplant Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 I'll be voting as I am allowed to do according to the rules and will be voting out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 The Trouble is,,The people who want IN will Vote... The people who could turn it round as it is in all voting in this country,,They are too idle to use their vote.. What started me off on this early stage is,, If you look at how many people have looked at this Thread,and how many have voted,its the old,, I cannot be bothered to type in one word. IN or OUT. This attitude is what will probably sink us. You might think this, but it is not necessarily true. Turn out on single issue referendums throughout the world are usually much higher than elections. Look at the two most recent UK referendum votes in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Both were over 80% turnout. It's all to play for and that's what worrying the politicians. I haven't decided yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Truth obviously hurts.. Salgeons plans were based on 'enormous oil reserves ' which Scotland don't have and the oil that is there was too expensive to extract at over 100 USD, I'm sure you are awar the oil price e has ore than halved since then. Additionally Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are Net deductors from public coffers, even more so when you factor in that the biggest employers in Scotland and NI are the state. Scotland does not have a self sustainable economy, neither do NI or Wales and England would be financially better off without them. These are facts, not nonsense, but I can see how they may be unpalatable. No the truth doesn't hurt, but ignorance offends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Why do you keep bringing Scotland up, and using it as some sort of precedent? Everyone knew Scottish independence was a folly and doomed to failure to start with !! And, why do you assume England will suffer from the weakening of sterling? Have it crossed your mind we could (probably will) get stronger ? England isn't a nation of folk who like to sit in the sun outside cafes drinking wine for two hours at lunch. We're a nation of fighters, go getters (a lot of us at least). International market links sterling to eurozone as has been illusated time after time, the market views UK as weaker out of Europe, hence Sterling will fall/crash... Much of the Sterling reduction we have seen in the last four months is the pricing in of a Brexit. No the truth doesn't hurt, but ignorance offends. Ignorance is not being aware of or not acknowledging the facts, the diametric opposite of my comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPJA Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 OUT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Why do you keep bringing Scotland up, and using it as some sort of precedent? Everyone knew Scottish independence was a folly and doomed to failure to start with !! And, why do you assume England will suffer from the weakening of sterling? Have it crossed your mind we could (probably will) get stronger ? England isn't a nation of folk who like to sit in the sun outside cafes drinking wine for two hours at lunch. We're a nation of fighters, go getters (a lot of us at least). I don't keep bringing Scotland up, I am responding to previous posts that were incorrect. The market will view UK as weaker out of Europe, that's what essentially values our currency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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