Anyone else still undecided?

[ElvisThePelvis]

Having been firmly of the 'remain' inclination before all of the campaign BS purely due to economic concerns I found myself edging towards 'leave' due to the complete lack of an salient information from remain other than Camerons's 'the bogeyman will get you'.. However having closely watched the markets Friday and today as 'remain' is viewed as the likely outcome and the significant recovery I al now completely undecided. Is anyone else still yet to be convinced one way or another?

[Good shot?]

Definitely not, I am still for OUT and if we end up staying in and I was a lot younger I would be emigrating out of the UK for good.

[daveboy]

If we were not a member would you vote to join ?

[oowee]

If we were not a member would you vote to join ?

No as we would have to take the Euro, agree to ever closer union and would not have the rebate. As we don't have the euro, we have the rebate and we have an agreement to not have ever closer ties I want to stay. Just bought my oil supply in case we are out and the £ falls further against the $.

[malkiserow]

When standing in the gents toilets the talk is usually "better out than in" so I think most made their minds up years ago.

 

As shooters, we will get shafted faster in the UK alone as politicians will reflect what most UK people/voters think...... Europe has a stronger base for shooting and hunting...... if this is your only issue, it is clear where our sport is safest.

[rodp]

Having been firmly of the 'remain' inclination before all of the campaign BS purely due to economic concerns I found myself edging towards 'leave' due to the complete lack of an salient information from remain other than Camerons's 'the bogeyman will get you'.. However having closely watched the markets Friday and today as 'remain' is viewed as the likely outcome and the significant recovery I al now completely undecided. Is anyone else still yet to be convinced one way or another?

I'm surprised you put money above all else, willing to give your childrens future away for a few more £££. Personally, money comes way down my list of priorities when it comes to family.

 

You can't buy quality of life ...... for any amount of money.

[TONY R]

No im not undecided i wanted out for years still do and hope with all my heart after voting we will be out on Friday morning.

[derbyduck]

Definitely not, I am still for OUT and if we end up staying in and I was a lot younger I would be emigrating out of the UK for good.

when we had the vote for the common market my wife and I said if we went in we would leave the UK and emigrate to NZ ,well we went in and her mother talked her out of going , I should have gone on my own it took me 9yrs to offload her and her sniveling mother ! OUT for me and my newer wife .

[TONY R]

Definitely not, I am still for OUT and if we end up staying in and I was a lot younger I would be emigrating out of the UK for good.

I have been told if we are in on Friday , we start proceedings to move to British Columbia, wife is a head teacher and still young enough to meet the migration criteria so it will happen in due course.

I wont miss it here.

If were out will give it a couple of years get the two youngest lads out of school and then see what to do at that point in town.

Have a look it might be just the move you need.

https://www.welcomebc.ca/Start-Your-Life-in-B-C

Edited June 20, 2016 by TONY R

[steve_b_wales]

When standing in the gents toilets the talk is usually "better out than in" so I think most made their minds up years ago.

 

As shooters, we will get shafted faster in the UK alone as politicians will reflect what most UK people/voters think...... Europe has a stronger base for shooting and hunting...... if this is your only issue, it is clear where our sport is safest.

But is the talk about Europe?

[Deker]

when we had the vote for the common market my wife and I said if we went in we would leave the UK and emigrate to NZ ,well we went in and her mother talked her out of going , I should have gone on my own it took me 9yrs to offload her and her sniveling mother ! OUT for me and my newer wife .

 

I've already started talking to people in NZ and I'm visiting in December to have a chat, I really don't like the way the future looks if we stay in the EU.

 

rodp, you certainly can buy quality of life, you may not be able to buy happiness but you can buy quality of life

[ElvisThePelvis]

I'm surprised you put money above all else, willing to give your childrens future away for a few more £££. Personally, money comes way down my list of priorities when it comes to family.

 

You can't buy quality of life ...... for any amount of money.

It may not have occurred to you that the economy effects more people than just me....

If we were not a member would you vote to join ?

This is an excellent point, and probably the decisive one, on balance, no I wouldn't join.

[nobbyathome]

I was all for stay in at the beginning then after all the rubbish put out on both sides and then mr usa I am god Obama saying we need to be in or else I instantly turned to out I have watched many debates on in or out and to be honest I don't trust any of them so only three days to go and I am still unsure

Edited June 20, 2016 by nobbyathome

[rodp]

 

I've already started talking to people in NZ and I'm visiting in December to have a chat, I really don't like the way the future looks if we stay in the EU.

 

rodp, you certainly can buy quality of life, you may not be able to buy happiness but you can buy quality of life

No you can't, you can buy the trappings of life but not quality.

[pigeonblasterian]

I can`t decide if to go down first thing in the morning on voting day or later at night to vote to leave.

[Mike737]

I have been told if we are in on Friday , we start proceedings to move to British Columbia, wife is a head teacher and still young enough to meet the migration criteria so it will happen in due course.

I wont miss it here.

If were out will give it a couple of years get the two youngest lads out of school and then see what to do at that point in town.

Have a look it might be just the move you need.

https://www.welcomebc.ca/Start-Your-Life-in-B-C

Given that one of the 'Out' campaign's reasons is immigration, there's a certain irony here...

 

Mike

[Mike737]

But I will be voting OUT!

 

Mike.

[rodp]

Given that one of the 'Out' campaign's reasons is immigration, there's a certain irony here...

 

Mike

Not really, he and his wife will have something to give to their new host country, and fully intend to do so. Unfortunately we just seem to get the masses that want to take take take, and then whinge we don't give them their own rule of law

[Deker]

No you can't, you can buy the trappings of life but not quality.

 

If you can't then why are people giving everything they own so that they can get here for a better "quality of life", I know people who have emigrated especially for that reason who would also disagree with you, I guess it all boils down to what that person sees as "quality of life", for some it's simply fresh air and plenty of space, for others it may not be possible with money.

[rodp]

 

If you can't then why are people giving everything they own so that they can get here for a better "quality of life", I know people who have emigrated especially for that reason who would also disagree with you, I guess it all boils down to what that person sees as "quality of life", for some it's simply fresh air and plenty of space, for others it may not be possible with money.

That, the rest are just trappings.

[Pheasant Feeder]

I'm out and I will share with you a post that I posted on Faceache which gives my reasons.

 

 

In less than a week we the British people have probably the largest decision to make in recent history.

 

We the British people will be at a fork in the road, where we have to decide which path to take. We have to take one of the paths as there is no option to stay at the junction.

 

If we decide to take the road of remaining as part of the EU, then we continue on a journey that is not within our control. Whilst there may be many more “forks” along the remain road, we as 1 of 28 countries have only minor, if any influence as to which way the EU bus takes us.

 

There are already signs that give us a clue as to where it will take us, even further political union, the forming of a European Army and even more legislation, directives and regulations. In effect a European super state.

 

Prior to the start of this referendum I was almost indifferent and just accepted the EU’s interference of my everyday life as an inconvenience, and something to moan about.

 

As a result of the various claims and counter claims, the whole EU establishment has been thrust – rather uncomfortably – into the spotlight. The lack of transparency and accountability is for me indefensible.

 

Many people in this country underestimate the power of democracy. Just because we end up with a government that, you, might not have voted for doesn’t mean that democracy doesn’t work.

In 2010 the Liberal democrats made a pledge on University Tuition Fees, they subsequently failed to honour that pledge as part of a coalition government.

In 2015 the electorate (that’s you by the way) showed your dissatisfaction and subsequently the Liberal Democrats number of MPs went from 57 to just 8.

That is Democracy in action.

If you’re not happy with the performance of your MP or enough people are not happy with the government in this country we can vote them out. In effect sack them.

 

Whilst you can elect the MEP that you wish, their influence is so insignificant that they are almost a waste of money.

 

Any legislation is driven by the unelected European Council. Their own website even states;

 

The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament's opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it.

 

This is like our House of Lords proposing legislation, for the elected MPs in the House of Commons to comment on, for their views and proposals to be disregarded anyway.

 

In effect you can elect who you want to speak on your behalf but the ultimate decision is made by people who most, cannot name, and in any event are unaccountable for their performance and actions.

 

The EU is currently debating the use of Glyphosate (Round Up) a commonly used weed killer, amid some concerns about its safety. Glyphosate is a weed killer that farmers use routinely to enable the affordable production of food. As I type this the European commission has failed to reach an agreement either way. The license runs out on the 30^th June and yet a decision has yet to be reached. A typical example of trying to get 28 member states to agree unanimously on any issue.

 

 

When I first read stories of a European Army I initially thought that it was so far fetched and must surely be scare mongering. However having looked at the Lisbon treaty which makes reference to:

 

“Those Member States whose military capabilities fulfil higher criteria and which have made more binding commitments to one another in this area with a view to the most demanding missions shall establish permanent structured cooperation within the Union framework.”

 

The British armed forces are second to none, and the envy of the world. I have no doubts that when the Lisbon treaty also includes:

 

“Member States shall make civilian and military capabilities available to the Union for the implementation of the common security and defence policy, to contribute to the objectives defined by the Council. Those Member States which together establish multinational forces may also make them available to the common security and defence policy.”

 

This means in the very near future our young men and women could potentially be deployed and placed in harm’s way (some never to return) as a requirement of membership of the EU.

 

However can you imagine how effective a European army will be? As far back as 1998 the British governments strategic defence review identified the need for a Rapid Reaction Force. When security threats are appearing in days or even hours, how long would it take to deploy such an army? Bear in mind the European Commission can’t even decide on a weed killer!

 

As a member of NATO I’m quite confident that this country has the ability to defend our country against any likely threat, much more effectively than by being part of a fledgling army that is governed by a committee of unelected officials.

 

When it comes to the defence of this country I’m sure it is definitely a case of Stronger by being independent.

 

 

 

 

 

A great deal of the debate as focused on trade and economic predictions. I am not an economist and neither are most of the electorate, so it has been easy for figures to be banded around and statistics quoted, most of it in an attempt to confuse and scare people.

One thing I have learnt in life is that trade is important, it is what generates tax to pay for public spending.

Government needs trade to generate income for the government to spend.

Trade on the whole doesn’t need the government in order to happen. If I have a product that you want or need and it is at the right price we strike a deal and trade is done.

 

Of the figures that have been churned out, those that attempt to predict the future are the ones to view with the greatest suspicion. The doom and gloom mongers will have you believe that we will be isolated with no one wanting to trade with us, or that the tariffs will be so extortionate that we will be ruined.

 

Make no mistake he who pays the piper calls the tune. If we leave the EU, Germany is paying the piper and is subsequently the driving force behind the EU. Their motor industry exports around 1 million cars to Britain each year. The British automotive market is one of the most profitable markets in the world. Regardless of how disgruntled they may be, do you really see Germany jeopardising one of their largest export markets?

 

In 1973 the EU with 8 members accounted for 31% of world economic output. Now with 28 members it only accounts for 17%. So despite growing massively in size, it has actually halved its share of the world’s economic output. I can only attribute this to a never ending stream of directives’ and regulation by an organisation that has to justify its existence, the result of which stifles industry and entrepreneurship.

 

The scale of economic problems in the Mediterranean countries especially Greece is likely to be the biggest factor in the EU’s demise. When Greece cannot afford to make its next repayment what happens? Either Greece has to leave the Euro zone (arguably the wisest option). Some form of a forced wholesale political integration creating the European super state (arguably the ultimate aim of the EU elite). Or the continued asset stripping of the national infrastructure of Greece by the financial institutions.

 

In any event the binding by single currency of a highly industrialised nation like Germany with the low economic output of a country like Greece is nothing short of folly.

 

Youth unemployment across Europe is creating a generation of good honest people who will lack the skills and work experience to move Europe forward in the future. These are the very people whose taxes will be funding our pensions and social care in the future.

 

Many say we should remain to reform and shape the future of the EU. I think it is quite clear that we have tried for decades to do this. There is no greater example of how much influence we actually have in the EU than when David Cameron came away from the EU with virtually nothing of a deal to offer. Hence why it has not even been mentioned by the Remain camp during their campaigning.

 

People are rightly worried about the projects that they see funded by the EU, things like the Arts, Heritage and Regional Development funds are often valued by the people in these areas. However the EU doesn’t have any money, it is your money they are giving you back and telling you what projects you have to spend it on.

The problem is that for the £1million pound project funded in this country your money may well also be funding a £1million project in some area of Romania you’ve never heard of.

 

 

 

Taking the road to independence.

 

 

If we chose to take the road of independence, we are in control of our future. When the next fork in the road is reached it will be for Britain to decide the path that is best for Britain.

 

For too long our successive governments’ have been hamstrung by EU legislation to tackle issues that are important to the British people, the sceptical amongst us may think that it has been something of an excuse.

Having taken the road to independence our government will be wholly accountable to you the electorate, no more excuses blaming ‘Europe’ for their inability to govern.

 

The likelihood is that a vote to leave will see the resignation of both David Cameron and George Osbourne. The lies and scaremongering have undermined their credibility to such an extent.

To my mind the Prime Minister should have remembered he is there to serve the British people. He should have given us the facts and whatever deal he had managed to negotiate. He should have then stepped back, remained impartial and allowed the electorate to decide, before implementing the wish of the electorate.

 

That would have been the action of a true Statesman.

 

We will be in a position to trade unhindered with the rest of the World including the countries that make up the EU. Don’t forget the EU countries export more to the UK than we do to them. In this matter we are paying the piper, we can to a certain extent call the tune.

The EU although bureaucratic and inefficient, is not stupid. They may be unhappy by Britain choosing to leave, but they are not going to cease trading with one of their biggest customers. Trade will continue with the EU.

 

Many of the scaremongers will quite happily quote that it has taken 7 years to negotiate a trade deal, surely this is proof that the EU is not efficient to be fit for purpose.

A trade deal negotiated by the UK with any other country is negotiated based on what is best for the UK and the UK alone. No longer do our trade negotiations need to take into account the wishes of an Italian tomato grower.

 

In 1975 being in the EEC might have been the right thing to do, but given that the world has changed, changed at a pace no one then could have imagined. It is now no longer right for Britain.

In 1975 trade blocks were what appeared the way forward. Don’t forget in 1975 Berlin was divided by the Berlin wall and many of the countries now forming the EU were behind the Iron curtain. There was no internet, no E-bay no Google and certainly no mobile phones.

 

 

It is now as easy to trade with nearly any country in the world as it is to trade with Europe. The world as a result of technology has moved on, unfortunately the EU hasn’t. As it has realised that its initial purpose is verging on obsolete the EU dinosaur has sought to take on a whole purpose for which it was never intended.

 

In an age of rapid technological change, the world has become our market place, so why would we hinder our future prosperity by being trapped into a diminishing economic area.

 

I have often felt that the original 8 members of the EEC coming together to make trade easier was a good thing. When all those countries had common standards of living and prosperity there is a mutual benefit. However since this time other countries have joined, these countries have usually had lower levels of prosperity and standards of living. The only benefit to allowing their membership has been the movement of cheap labour. Politicians will deny that the free movement of labour has supressed wages but anyone with the most basic understanding of economics can see the relationship between supply and demand.

 

Immigration is often the elephant in the room, politicians are afraid to discuss the issue for fear of being accused of racism. Immigration is not a race issue. Any organisation be it a local corner shop all the way up to our public services has to be able to predict and anticipate the demand in order to ensure they have the ability to supply.

 

When our public services and infrastructure are subject to a rapid increase in demand it is bound to struggle or even fail. It is all well and good acknowledging that migrant labour contribute, in the form of taxes and economic output, yes they do and for that I am grateful. But in order to maintain the high standards of living and public services we have to have control. We have to ensure that the national infrastructure is in place to facilitate this immigration at a steady rate of growth, this isn’t racism this is good governance.

 

In order to be prosperous as a country we need immigration, but we need to be able to allow the most talented individuals to come to this country, those with skills where we have a shortage, regardless of where they come from. We need immigration that works for Britain. Those that don’t want any immigration should take a long hard look at what they have to offer, and ask why we don’t have enough British doctors, nurses, scientists and engineers to fill that void.

 

A vote to Leave is not a vote against immigration. It is a vote to widen the available market from which we as a country can select the best talent. This could mean an increase in migration from Africa, India and Asia, surely this will strike fear into any racists.

 

Our savings on EU contributions will be ours to spend on the projects and things that are important to us. We will still have Regional Development funds, still have arts council and heritage funding. We will still have farm subsidies but these will be targeted towards what are right for the local environment. The difference is that the net cost to the UK taxpayer is less. We the electorate can chose what is important to us.

 

The transitional period is likely to be a little unsettled, but the long term prospects are significantly more prosperous than remaining.

 

Our politicians some of whom have viewed the electorate as an inconvenience will be rocked on their foundations and reminded who they serve.

The political landscape due to the cross party support for both sides of the debate is likely to change forever. It is an opportunity to rid our system of the tribal mentality that is so toxic and full of spin.

 

Our businesses will thrive, we will be free from the burden of over regulation able to explore world markets as they develop, we can be the first into those emerging markets and subsequently reap the rewards.

 

National apathy can be a thing of the past.

Patriotism can be reawakened as a force for good.

 

Over 160 countries manage to operate outside the EU are we so lacking in self confidence that we can’t also make it on our own?

 

Our nation’s cultural heritage and rich history is world class.

 

Britain is the 5^th largest economy in the World, that’s right, in the World not Europe but the World.

 

We are one of only five permanent member of the United Nations Security Council.

 

 

We are so much more than a star on someone else’s flag.

 

This could well be the start of a British Renaissance

 

This referendum is an opportunity to once again make Britain Great.

 

Please don’t waste it.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Amen to that.

 

Let's get OUT!

[motty]

 

If you can't then why are people giving everything they own so that they can get here for a better "quality of life", I know people who have emigrated especially for that reason who would also disagree with you, I guess it all boils down to what that person sees as "quality of life", for some it's simply fresh air and plenty of space, for others it may not be possible with money.

That's exactly what we will have even less of if we stay in Europe.

[ElvisThePelvis]

Nice post, I especially like your comments about Cameron and Osbourne, they had the opportunity to cement all of the great work that they have done by presenting facts and standing by, but have completely screwed it up. I used to have the hugest respect for Cameron and thought he was the best PM in my lifetime, but not any longer. My biggest concern is how deep and sustained the repercussions will be as we become nothing but a financial instrument.

[harrycatcat1]

No not undecided, voting out, both Mrs Hcc and me.