Chris Packham/Grouse Shooting - Merged Threads

[scotslad]

And that's why our spokespersons need the same or higher level of media training.

Portraying anti shooters as extremists is the wrong tack.

They're in the majority.

We need some kind of charm offensive.

 

I know wot ur saying felly, and ur spot on about the orgs and even training some keepers up as media spokesmen. U just have to look at the good beefy has done in the short time u forgot about the birds has been going, i imagine he's media trained from his cricketing days?

 

But i'd say he is spot on to call packham an extremeist, same with avery, lacs etc, lacs regulary intimidate hunts and think nothing off voilence so if there standing alongside extremists then i don't see the problem with labelling them as that.

There not just anti -shooting, and plus a lot of wot there spouting is damned lies, i'm pretty sure they will know that but hoping to sling enough mud some will stick.

 

 

Not sure where that fishing piece is coming from, i take it it is in scotland as on about right to roam etc.

Seems there m,oaning about there FREE fishing being stoppped so the owners cn try to make some money on there estate, imagine that cheeky toffs!

U can't fish most rivers for free or lochs, yet they expect these to be free and have unlimited access to them, althou to be fair up till now most have been as so few folk want to fish them, just pure wild fish usually under 1lb and u might have a 10-20mile walk in to it

 

 

I'm obviously baised but i also suspect so is the authour and not just about fishing.

In scotland the % of uplands used fro grouse shooting is relatively small (hardly any 10 miles west of the A9) with a lot of island moors, and not blanket shooting the ay it is down south.

There is a few very big well keepered moors that usually do fairly well by scottish standards (but would be classed as poor by english bags for acreage or keepers) most scottish moors will lose a lot of money most years, a small % may break even and a tiny fraction will make a profit year on year.

1 moor i know has 4-5 FT keepers and only shot 1 poor/average year in past 10, must be costing a fortune on wages, accom motors and atv's etc.

 

The SNP government is talking about bringing in sporting rates, hence why lairds may start having to charge for the previously free fishing, so if anything its the SNP's fualt.

I would of imagined red stag stalking would of had a far bigger impact on hill trout fishing, as such a large % of uplands is used for red stalking compared to grouse shooting and continues far longer.

 

And u can still hill walk throu any estate u want on or off footpaths no matter wether shooting grouse/stags etc but just not lioter or impede

Edited August 13, 2016 by scotslad

[panoma1]

Hardly surprising! What a snob! This sort of elitist verbal masturbation gives real sportsmen a bad name!

[Oddman]

Packham claimed moor management responsible for Boxing Day floods

 

This is a particularly divisive and irresponsible claim in a community still recovering from the floods and worried when the next one may happen

 

5 minutes of searching on EA website and I found the data to refute it (my graphic)

 

CpuFN64WcAAQogE.jpg:large

[scotslad]

Hardly surprising! What a snob! This sort of elitist verbal masturbation gives real sportsmen a bad name!

 

Think i've picked that fishing thing up differently. Is it meant to have been written by a snob?

 

I seriously think its a hoax, no snob/toff/laird/landowner would be speaking favourably about the SNP goverenment (last paragraph) esp as there trying to reintro a sporting tates tax soon and still threatening land grabs by communities that the land owners have no say over.

 

Also can't see snp intro-ing any law that makes it easier to prosecute 'normal' voters from fishing for free, quite the oppisate in fact

[panoma1]

Think i've picked that fishing thing up differently. Is it meant to have been written by a snob?

 

I seriously think its a hoax, no snob/toff/laird/landowner would be speaking favourably about the SNP goverenment (last paragraph) esp as there trying to reintro a sporting tates tax soon and still threatening land grabs by communities that the land owners have no say over.

 

Also can't see snp intro-ing any law that makes it easier to prosecute 'normal' voters from fishing for free, quite the oppisate in fact

It was comments re: the "much anticipated" opening banquet and ball, and the chef bought up from London to cook the Grouse that hit a bum note for me!........also the advice about keeping the riffraff of the hill and in their place wouldnt exactly endear the writer to most real people!

[keg]

Google " Ban Blood Sports on Ilkley Moor" to see what a media campaign can do. This little **** called Luke Steele has created an issue where non existed just a couple of years ago with lies and half truths.

 

He's also a convicted criminal.

[scotslad]

It was comments re: the "much anticipated" opening banquet and ball, and the chef bought up from London to cook the Grouse that hit a bum note for me!........also the advice about keeping the riffraff of the hill and in their place wouldnt exactly endear the writer to most real people!

 

But i doubt it is actually written by a real toff or landowner, far more likely to be a hoax by an anti, or some disgruntled fisherman,

Must admit not entirely sure the situation with hill lochs if they close them for grouse shooting, but like a said be hundreds of other hill lochs to go to not on grouse shooting estates, red deer stalking would have a far bigger imact over a far wider area of lochs.

 

 

For a start he calls them hills lakes and tarns, both english phrases, in scotland would be hill lochs and lochans, and also the bits highlighted abount SNP/holyrood no landowner would be sticking up for them with the sporting rates changes and land reform bill going throu the now.

Also fishing law has changed/changing but has pretty much made an awful lot of rivers 100% catch and release for salmon and sea trout and brown trout, revinues have plummetted, a beat near me used to hae a long waiting list for season tickets couldn't sell any season permits this year.

 

I've read it and reread it and still can't see the part about riff raff and keeping them in there places.

 

I realise ur generally pro shooting/grouse shooting but even if the above is true and written by a toff why should bringing a chef up from london even matter in this day and age?

I'm sure this will happen for many events/occasions (weddings, fancy balls, sport events etc)

It just shows that there is always a bit of class envy when grouse shooting is mentioned even amoung other shooters

I've travelled down to south of england to cut trees down and put fences up, hardly the most skilled of jobs that locals coudn't have done to the same standard. Businessmen will fly to meetings all over UK/Europe/world for 1 day

So travelling a few hundred miles nowadays is no real biggy

[felly100]

I think the general consensus is he's trolling.

http://www.flyfishing.co.uk/general-fly-fishing-discussion/349068-glorious-twelfth-no-fishing-now-allowed.html

[JDog]

The post by kevin55 is clearly a spoof designed purely to set fishermen against shooters and 'others' against toffs.

[kevin55]

You could be right, his 1st post earlier this was:

 

Hello, I'm David originally from London I now live in the Scottish Highlands where I own some land and fishing on several lakes and streams. Thank you of having me as a member of your fishing forum.

[Scully]

Have just been talking to a NGO representative earlier today, and she told me she is 95% sure M&S haven;t bottled it, but the birds simply aren't there in the numbers on the specific moors they have contracts with. She claims to have inside information, and assured me M&S are very disappointed.

[CharlieT]

Have just been talking to a NGO representative earlier today, and she told me she is 95% sure M&S haven;t bottled it, but the birds simply aren't there in the numbers on the specific moors they have contracts with. She claims to have inside information, and assured me M&S are very disappointed.

The cynic in me says how very convenient.

[islandgun]

I think the general consensus is he's trolling.

http://www.flyfishing.co.uk/general-fly-fishing-discussion/349068-glorious-twelfth-no-fishing-now-allowed.html

That was interesting cheers, the person posting as "white settler" obviously has some serious issues, reading his past posts and using my vast physcological yet unresolved profiling skill i am able to state that he is clearly a **** and a charlatan, the term "white settler" is a derogatory term for incomers to Scotland, his post's are designed to create as many enemies as possible. I suspect he is disliked by all who know him and has decided to stir up as much trouble as possible.

I remember anti English graffiti in the east of Scotland a good few years ago which caused a stir locally the culprit was eventually caught and found to be a german girl with a grudge. he is no more a toff than i am and should be ignored

[bjlfishing]

Ive just got in from two days of flanking on one of the most famous grouse moors, where other than grouse ive seen untold amounts of other birds curlew green plover or lapwings snipe etc kestrels merlins the list goes on .anyone who disputes that grouse management is a negative thing on our uplands is in cloud cuckoo land the money generated that goes back into the rural economy is a major factor the employment on a shoot day Is unreal over 50 staff today from 6 year olds upto 70 plus, if grouse shooting didnt exist then the moors would turn to a vast wilderness devoid of all life in a very shirt time

[scotslad]

Well said bj.

 

I've been involved in beating lines for pheasant since i was a boy but the whole grouse expereince is totally different and totally blew my mind 1st time i went, far more a whole community spirt, local farmers, shepherds come to beat/flank or loan quads 4x4's, even so many nieghbouring keepers coming to help. Few wives often make lunches for guns ad beaters and do meals for guns at night

Don't tend to get that the same with pheasant as they all have there own birds to feed right throu shooting season, so don't have the time to be on other shoots very often.

And the money involved just blows my mind, it brings some real money into areas that often don't have much, esp some of those N eng areas the valleys are pretty bleak when u drive to a moor with very little in the way of employment, grouse will bring a massive ammount in. A lot of estates have now built some really quite fancy lodges/holiday houses too now, all extra work for locals building, maintaining, cleaning and cooking

 

 

Must adnit i'm with charlie in the convienient/bottling it camp.

 

I'd imagine M&S would do a lot of homework etc and estates would have to jump throu hoops to get the contract, so i find it very hard to believe that all the estates that have signed up aren't shooting. Even in a bad year for grouse these big estates are still shooting quite a few grouse, a season. So for all the estates picked not to be shooting any is very unlucky. Esp if they picked a few estates scattered about to minimise any poor local weather effect of grouse numbers.

I would be very surprised if those 'chosen' estates have not got 1000 odd brace lying in larders at minuate between them after 2 days shooting, probably a lot more, that may seem a lot but to big moors its not really

 

Would be intresting to hear wot sort of number they were talking about stocking? Don't imagine they would be a great seller, not the nicest gamebird i've ever ate, infact probably 1 of the worst, but also possibly down to my cooking

If they were really keen on stcking game would they not be better off starting with cheap nice things like rabbit or pigeon.

My mates wife once paid 6 quid a rabbit of a butcher in glasgow, mental

[JDog]

Bravo bjlfishing.

 

M&S have chickened out. Given a reasonable grouse year their fridges could easily have been full.

[Scully]

Without confirmation I'm not sure how anyone can claim M&S have 'chickened out' or 'bottled it'! It may well be the case but without confirmation it's just hearsay, and we all know how we feel regarding hearsay when it casts doubt on the actions of shooters don't we?

I got the information regarding M&S from a source in possibly the best position to know....the NGO, and told by a representative that while there are many grouse moors to choose from, not all are in contract to M&S. I did hear that Iceland are making inroads into game products also, but don't know how true this is either.

My daughter is at this very minute at work in one of our local hotels ( my son did his shift there this morning ) catering to guns who have come down off the moors local to us, so I'm well aware of how important the shooting industry is to the local economy, and will be throughout the forthcoming pheasant shooting season also.

I would derive great satisfaction to learn that M&S was stocking grouse, or indeed any game, and would like to believe they are bigger than the piffling 80,000 plus which have signed Chris Packhams petition. 80,000? From a population of how many? Really? It would be a sad state of affairs if that were indeed the case.

[scotslad]

Sorry it still seems like a botlle job to me and there just saying enough to save face

 

I'll probably find out this week as down for my first day with mutts and get on well with the moor owner and he's geneally pretty well connected.

 

Like i said i find it completely unbelievable that quite a few large well manged moors are not shooting, esp in N eng. And even in an average/poor year these moors will be poducing thousands of brace a season. 1000 brace is not a lot of birds for most moors with multiple FT keepers

 

Yes they may not be shooting the full ammount that was ordered but that's life dealing with totally wild birds.

M&S should have known that, unlike other suppliers they can't bully them to produce so many 'units' exactly when they want.

If supply is shorter than they wanted they could of put the price up a bit more anyway, or just advertise as limited stock.

But in reality there never has been so much grouse flowing throu game dealers doors and in freezers as last few years (even with last year being abad year) so yes i do find it hard to believe all these estates cherry picked to supply grouse are all have such a bad year.

 

I also fail to see wot special conditions marks can put on a grouse moor to make the grouse 'better' not like there farm stock, where a farmer can infuence all sorts of things from the breed, feed andhousing etc. 1 grouse is the exact same as another most are handled fairly well after being shot nowadays into flyproof ventalated trailers and taken to larder at lunch time if hot

 

Usually marks are a pita to deal with and insist on exculsivity from ur farm too, for all they pay u slightly extra the hoops u have to jump throu are unreal and usually not worth it

 

Must admit grouse is more likely to put someone off eating game if that is ur first taste and not cooked well, esp if an older bird, they would be far better selling partridge, pigeon or rabbit as easily cooked less gamey tasting game to get folk more intrested.

[Scully]

That's entirely up to you of course, but I'll wait until the facts emerge, as they surely will. You may well be right, but I sincerely hope not, otherwise we're stuffed. It's not like we'd be prepared to do anything about it, is it?

I find it hard to believe that a company such as M&S have 'bottled it' due to the totally untrue claims of shot grouse being 'toxic' and the gnashing teeth of 80,000 plus antis in the face of a potential buying adult population of 38,000,000.

It doesn't say a lot for us shooters does it if M&S can be swayed by 80,000 voices as opposed to how many shotgun and firearm owners?

[longspoon]

Packham is an over opinionated fool that spouts half truths, ought to be consigned to oblivion to join that other fool Oddie........just my opinion !

[keg]

Agreed, but if half the population believes him, it matters not a jot what we think, we aren't the ones who need convincing.

[JDog]

Country file just did a segment on grouse shooting. Avery is completely twisted in his thinking. The BBC did itself no favours either, especially when it included a clip of a flock of golden plover.

[Scully]

I don't think we came out of that too well. Very disappointed. The RSPB bloke scored some major PR there, regardless of how accurate/inaccurate his claims.

[scolopax]

The hope has to be that when it gets debated in parliament it is dismissed by our pro shooing Torty government and kicked into the long grass.

 

But I fear for north of the border with their rabid socialists in charge, and ourselves if a left wing government ever get back in power. So on the positive we have a looooong time to get our house in order.

[matone]

Unfortunately this is a fight that should have been heavily funded by the wealthy members of the shooting community for the last 30 years or so but most of them don`t really give a stuff about grouse shooting or anything else ,other than themselves .

That we now see ourselves on the back foot ,so to speak ,is no great surprise.

Moorkeepers and gamekeepers in general,have far more passion for their ground and birds than any of their employers.

Whatever we think of the antis ,they are passionate for their cause.