shaun4860 Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 In America the military is a good career option for the poor. They get education, health cover etc that they couldn't get outside. My mate Rick's son went into the USAF at 17 lowest of the low and came out at 38 with a degree in aeronautical engineering and certified to work on all Boeing civil aircraft to the highest level. Tell me one British service man who could say the same? I think you do our servicemen and women a disservice My nephew joined the RAF and has so far had a very good career, Just passed his Sargent's exams and is a qualified fast jet tech, If/when he leaves I have no doubt he will be able to pick and choose his career in civvy street as his qualifications will stand him in very good stead, Even he will admit he wasn't the greatest academical but is very good at being hands on, I don't think that US service people leave any better qualified than our service people that want to put the effort in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Just no more MEN!,no more heavy industry where men worked and got hammered for not acting like a man.The youth of today are out of control, we have a generation of kids knocking out more kids (sometimes as soon as they leave school).The UK is turning into a holding pen for the Jeremy Kyle show!I look round our office and see guys with face creams and hand lotions on their desks for gods sake!At lunch time they gather and talk about Xbox and Playstations lol. Bring back the cane to the schools, belt the living **** out of the little ******* the minute they back chat.Then you may have something that's capable of protecting our country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 There appear to be a lot of sweeping generalisations going on, as a lot of people seem intent on bemoaning the youth of today. Yes, there are scrotes about, for a plethora of reasons, but hasn't there always been? They are thankfully outweighed by the vast majority of youth who grow up to be well balanced and well turned out adults. In my teens there were about the average number of pupils who teachers claimed wouldn't amount to much, including myself, but whom nevertheless went on to be decent people. I can name quite a few of those in the lower IQ classes who have gone on to do very very well for themselves, including two who are now millionaires, employing quite a few people. To balance it out I can also name a few in the higher IQ classes who have totally wasted their intelligence and their lives, one of whom was the son of a senior teacher in our school. He was sectioned some years ago following drug addiction. I can accept that a stint in the military may have been the saving grace of some, but I feel there is a fair amount of rose-tinted spectacle viewing going on; there will have been just as many scrotes doing National Service, and resenting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delwint Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) Just no more MEN!,no more heavy industry where men worked and got hammered for not acting like a man.The youth of today are out of control, we have a generation of kids knocking out more kids (sometimes as soon as they leave school).The UK is turning into a holding pen for the Jeremy Kyle show!I look round our office and see guys with face creams and hand lotions on their desks for gods sake!At lunch time they gather and talk about Xbox and Playstations lol. Bring back the cane to the schools, belt the living **** out of the little ******* the minute they back chat.Then you may have something that's capable of protecting our country. What Davyo said 😁 Edited December 30, 2016 by Delwint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 I don't think that US service people leave any better qualified than our service people that want to put the effort in. This, and I know several who benefitted greatly, including a relative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben0850 Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 The Bad Lads Army programme on channel 4 several years ago showed how scallies could be turned around with a bit of firm guidance. Problem is that we've hardly any bases, our ships are tied up and our aircraft don't work and most military work is now being handed over to private contract mainly run by the US so there's nothing for them to do anyway. I remember that programme, I think much of the issue today is lack of parental guidance and discipline. Kids growing up and allowed to do as they please whether that's dropping litter, anti social behaviour or worse. No father figures to look up to and dragged up with zero respect for anyone or anything. If some type of boot camp or apprentice scheme can correct some of that then I'm all for it, my guess is though unless compulsory as soon as anything like hard work kicks in the youngsters will be off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Just no more MEN!,no more heavy industry where men worked and got hammered for not acting like a man.The youth of today are out of control, we have a generation of kids knocking out more kids (sometimes as soon as they leave school).The UK is turning into a holding pen for the Jeremy Kyle show!I look round our office and see guys with face creams and hand lotions on their desks for gods sake!At lunch time they gather and talk about Xbox and Playstations lol. Bring back the cane to the schools, belt the living **** out of the little ******* the minute they back chat.Then you may have something that's capable of protecting our country. And National Service is the answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 And National Service is the answer? I don't think it is, discipline from day 1 is the answer, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 As someone who works with kids, I pity those who think there is no good out there. The big majority turn out fine - even some who were real horrors at school, when I bump into them again a couple of years after leaving, they have grown up and are decent individuals. You will always get a proportion of those who go bad but then again, there always have been. Attributed to Socrates, who died in 399bc: "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." What goes around comes around.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 I think you do our servicemen and women a disservice My nephew joined the RAF and has so far had a very good career, Just passed his Sargent's exams and is a qualified fast jet tech, If/when he leaves I have no doubt he will be able to pick and choose his career in civvy street as his qualifications will stand him in very good stead, Even he will admit he wasn't the greatest academical but is very good at being hands on, I don't think that US service people leave any better qualified than our service people that want to put the effort in. Well said. I'd bet my next month's RAF pension that the qualifications gained by any of our armed forces apprentices would match, if not exceed, the degree standard mentioned above in any given discipline. Although I can't answer for the current situation having been out longer than I was in, with regard to the USAF we're not comparing like with like - particularly in relation to the RAF. I worked beside the USAF guys on many occasions and their set up is/was different with regard to trade boundaries. Go on a flight line while the aircraft are getting prepped for the first sortie of the day and you'd find one, perhaps two, RAF lads per aircraft. The USAF numbers required to do the same would be nigh on ten times that. Not saying their system is/was wrong, just different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollieollie Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 My point was not all encompassing, by lazy scrotes i mean the ones who would not entertain national service, in this day and age they know how to play the system well and would get away with it even so they are the ones who i expect would benefit the most. I have until last month been involved in scouting for a huge portion of my life both as a child and an adult leader, scouts tend to be great kids most of whom would participate in national service. I am just highlighting how modern society would not work with the old model of national service. A new national service would only be that in name and i think would be more like some sort of personal development/apprenticeship scheme designed by the government so they can appear to be addressing problems we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 There appear to be a lot of sweeping generalisations going on, as a lot of people seem intent on bemoaning the youth of today. Yes, there are scrotes about, for a plethora of reasons, but hasn't there always been? They are thankfully outweighed by the vast majority of youth who grow up to be well balanced and well turned out adults. In my teens there were about the average number of pupils who teachers claimed wouldn't amount to much, including myself, but whom nevertheless went on to be decent people. I can name quite a few of those in the lower IQ classes who have gone on to do very very well for themselves, including two who are now millionaires, employing quite a few people. To balance it out I can also name a few in the higher IQ classes who have totally wasted their intelligence and their lives, one of whom was the son of a senior teacher in our school. He was sectioned some years ago following drug addiction. I can accept that a stint in the military may have been the saving grace of some, but I feel there is a fair amount of rose-tinted spectacle viewing going on; there will have been just as many scrotes doing National Service, and resenting it. I would have had to do national service but simply and legally bought my way out, as do tens of thousands from all socio economic groups with no detriment to their social behaviour. National service is of any real use in cheaply maintaining a defensive army, quarrelsome nations that need to preserve a certain status in the world and lets be honest, need to go to war regularly to maintain that status need professional, well trained and "conditioned" personnel. The idea that national service will fix todays youth is a mere pipe dream. The problem today is not lack of a national service but the society itself which time and again teaches us that crime, dishonesty and downright callous behaviour pays well and will go unpunished, a legal system which is geared towards protecting the super rich and so expensive as to make it near impossible for the common man to seek justice. A media system that scrambles the minds of those growing up into believing that a celebrity with large boobs is a thing to look up to and mocks those who try and open our eyes to fix society's ills. People who buy their way out of national service don't suddenly turn into chavs in other countries do they ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbob Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Maybe im old fashioned but working in a university i think its a great idea most of the foreign students do two years before or after there degree and the only time it bothers them is when theres trouble in there country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Just no more MEN!,no more heavy industry where men worked and got hammered for not acting like a man.The youth of today are out of control, we have a generation of kids knocking out more kids (sometimes as soon as they leave school).The UK is turning into a holding pen for the Jeremy Kyle show!I look round our office and see guys with face creams and hand lotions on their desks for gods sake!At lunch time they gather and talk about Xbox and Playstations lol. Bring back the cane to the schools, belt the living **** out of the little ******* the minute they back chat.Then you may have something that's capable of protecting our country. You seem to have a lot of deep rooted anger. Wishing violence on others for having different interests opinions to you isn't going to solve that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 I don't think it is, discipline from day 1 is the answer, I think teaching some self respect and self worth from day 1 would help more. Its ok knocking 7 bells out of kids to teach them where they went wrong,but a lot of the time,showing self control of yourself and respect,are a better example. And no,Im not talking naughty steps and time outs,where many say 'well it didnt do me any harm' it obviously did,because it the first resort,rather than the last. As far as national service goes,its pretty unworkable in this day and age,but a forced citizenship course isnt. If you have employment or further education when you leave school,then fine,you dont need to do it,but if say before the age of 25 ,you find yourself idle... A lot of kids these days dont know how to wipe their ..noses.. A lot of them would benefit from learning some essential life skills,basic stuff ,like cooking ,cleaning , exercise,finding out where they are,and who they are. They can maybe find out where they want to be in life. Or..we can carry on like we are doing, breeding generation after generation of work shy people who cost the taxpayer more and more. Think how many average working people it takes to pay the average £30,000 a year to keep a family of 4 on benefits? It cant possibly last,as more and more realise they are possibly better off not working,or have no intention in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol p Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Not so much the armed services, but three years compulsory service in the police, fire or ambulance service with the entitlement of an educational grant involved might go somewhere to to building some national fibre again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalahari Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 National service wouldn't have to be the armed forces, but we would have to, because of equality laws, find something for young women to do and they would certainly complain and go to the courts in droves! David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 First point is that if there was some discipline in the home and schools there wouldn't be need for National Service to instil this. But if you did have National Service it would be separate and alongside the regulars, not mixed in with them. And finally Lloyd's point about obesity in over 40's; It's National Service we are talking about. Not the flipping Home Guard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 First point is that if there was some discipline in the home and schools there wouldn't be need for National Service to instil this. Yup....soon as they took the wack out of the schools it went tits up IMO.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromwell7 Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Just no more MEN!,no more heavy industry where men worked and got hammered for not acting like a man.The youth of today are out of control, we have a generation of kids knocking out more kids (sometimes as soon as they leave school).The UK is turning into a holding pen for the Jeremy Kyle show!I look round our office and see guys with face creams and hand lotions on their desks for gods sake!At lunch time they gather and talk about Xbox and Playstations lol. Bring back the cane to the schools, belt the living **** out of the little ******* the minute they back chat.Then you may have something that's capable of protecting our country. My generation didn't have the cane at school and I was capable at serving. The social issues we have run far deeper "knocking the **** out of little *****" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 I think teaching some self respect and self worth from day 1 would help more. Its ok knocking 7 bells out of kids to teach them where they went wrong,but a lot of the time,showing self control of yourself and respect,are a better example. And no,Im not talking naughty steps and time outs,where many say 'well it didnt do me any harm' it obviously did,because it the first resort,rather than the last. As far as national service goes,its pretty unworkable in this day and age,but a forced citizenship course isnt. If you have employment or further education when you leave school,then fine,you dont need to do it,but if say before the age of 25 ,you find yourself idle... A lot of kids these days dont know how to wipe their ..noses.. A lot of them would benefit from learning some essential life skills,basic stuff ,like cooking ,cleaning , exercise,finding out where they are,and who they are. They can maybe find out where they want to be in life. Or..we can carry on like we are doing, breeding generation after generation of work shy people who cost the taxpayer more and more. Think how many average working people it takes to pay the average £30,000 a year to keep a family of 4 on benefits? It cant possibly last,as more and more realise they are possibly better off not working,or have no intention in the first place. The way that many old style establishments such as police probationer training and army recruits operated was to instil fear and discipline from the very first second and then reign the harsh treatment back as the recruits progressed. It worked for generations, but is not suited to today's namby-pamby world where everyone is entitled to respect whether they have earned it or not. The country will continue to breed generations of people who will never work for several reasons. For one thing there aren't as many jobs per person in the population due to mechanisation and other improvements and certain governments have allowed a situation to develop whereby people who will work for peanuts can be shipped in and make the indigenous labour redundant. Back in the 1920s during the depression many town councils created work for their residents in building and general improvements. Of course in those days there was no benefits system so the out of work people were glad of any small wage that could be earned. Now, the benefits system can be so comfortable for some that they won't willingly work for the small difference in income. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullet1747 Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Having been in the forces and seen the score on the streets , I'm all for it leave school serve one year , thet run away bring them back add a month on simples Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 I don't think any professional army wants conscripts and I don't think it helps the nation in a time of war let alone peace time especially considering the expense of training the modern infantry soldier let alone trades with all the current gear,it's a far cry from pre war Britain in the 30's. As for lack of discipline I don't think that's strictly true either and neither does it help the child learn right from wrong, anyone intent on beating a child for back chatting as stated above has deeper issues and possibly some manifest perversion for violence, ive found that often those so vocal about lack of up bringing often sit about and do nothing when something needs to be done only to carry on about it later like they excised some form of social cancer. I'm far from a bleeding heart liberal and have served in the forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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