Brexit

[Twistedsanity]

So when we joined the European union farmers got paid subsidies to not grow crops on their land, presumably Brexit means an end to that and more home grown produce?

[four-wheel-drive]

So when we joined the European union farmers got paid subsidies to not grow crops on their land, presumably Brexit means an end to that and more home grown produce?

 

The problem is from what I have seen of it a lot of the subsidies go to the land owner not the person working the land may be wrong but that is the way that things have been explained on TV and radio.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

More good reasons for our leaving the massive white elephant.

[JohnfromUK]

It wasn't as straightforward as that. From (distant) memory, when we joined there was a so called "Green Pound" that was a fiddle factor which was used to calculate the value of financial support within the Common Agricultural Policy until 1999. What it meant was that for agricultural subsidies paid to European farmers, a less favourable exchange rate than the real exchange rate (this was pre Euro) was used, so effectively UK farmers received a lower price for their goods than European farmers.

What people tend to forget these days is that Ted Heath was so desperate to join the EU (it was called a Common Market then) that he would have sold his own mother (even his yacht and grand piano) for a penny just to be allowed in - remember the UK application had previously been rejected by De Gaulle in 1963 (he was an ungrateful pig as we had saved is skin and his country in WW2).

Therefore Heath signed up to a very bad deal for the UK (which in true politician style he boasted of as a triumph). What Heath's deal basically meant was that UK farmers were paid roughly half what other EU farmers were, and the UK as a whole was a MASSIVE payer into EU funds - most of which were then spent on agriculture. This was eventually largely corrected by Mrs Thatcher in 1984 in the form of a so called rebate (66% of the agricultural payments) - but the saving didn't go to farmers, but just into general government coffers. It was at that time that Mrs Thatcher managed to actually reduce the British national debt a bit.

Some of this rebate was subsequently given back to the EU by Blair in circa 2007

Edited July 26, 2017 by JohnfromUK

[ditchman]

The thing we will have to watch over are the starting again of butter mountains ...milk lakes wheat mountains beef mountains.............we must continue in some way to arrange with the rest of the EU....not to allow this to happen again...so we can keep grown goods stable on both sides of the channel..............

[JohnfromUK]

The thing we will have to watch over are the starting again of butter mountains ...milk lakes wheat mountains beef mountains.............we must continue in some way to arrange with the rest of the EU....not to allow this to happen again...so we can keep grown goods stable on both sides of the channel..............

The wine lake sounded attractive. Apparently Jean Claude Junker drank it.

[CharlieT]

The thing we will have to watch over are the starting again of butter mountains ...milk lakes wheat mountains beef mountains.............we must continue in some way to arrange with the rest of the EU....not to allow this to happen again...so we can keep grown goods stable on both sides of the channel..............

Those long gone problems arose because the Common Market, led by the French with French farmers in mind, encouraged farmers to overproduce the commodities that were beneficial to their own interests.

 

Now that subsidies are environmentally linked we are paid to manage the countryside for townies and the green lobby not food production.

[Twistedsanity]

So does that mean that the landowners will no longer get paid for doing nothing and we are likely to see our land used again and eat UK grown produce? Or not?

[JohnfromUK]

Your guess is as good as mine - because nobody has said what will be set up post Brexit. If I had to guess, there will be little actual change.

[ditchman]

So does that mean that the landowners will no longer get paid for doing nothing and we are likely to see our land used again and eat UK grown produce? Or not?

 

 

i think you will see a lot more UK grown produce ...British sugar are investing a lot of money ....and other companies in Co2 feeding dromes.....in the way down south genetics have modified string beans to be grown out doors in the cooler climates....most of them come from Kenya.......we will also see a reassurgance in British lamb and stuff that is imported from New Zealand...............wool carpet manufacturers are reporting and increase in sales which can only be good for the shearers and shepards............

 

i also think environmental subs' will be available and set aside will be better managed.....the farmers wont be allowed to take the money and run....they will have to put a little more effort into managing the contryside ...and to prove that they are willing...........

 

i think...we have a very very bright future.....as long as we remember the bloody awful mistakes we made in the past and to stop greed in its tracks.....................aannd....we will thankfully see a healthy increase in or dairy industry for a change..............

[oowee]

JR Mogg my local MP together with other Brexit buccaneers, supports trade deals with anywhere including Argentina US and NZ. These deals would put at risk UK farming as we know it. Unable to compete for cereals and beef or lamb a switch to cash crop such as bio fuels might be an option (could be good for pigeon shooting).

[bostonmick]

I would not put to much store by this.we are at the moment being sold down the river by our so called leaders.a few weeks in the talks we have conceded we will pay a divorce fee.we will continue to allow free movement for a few years.and we will not throw migrant criminals out.along with putting all eu laws and regulations onto our books.as suspected it is a complete farce

Edited July 27, 2017 by bostonmick

[12gauge82]

The problem that is faced is the number of people in positions of power in this country who want the status quo to continue, I believe democracy is nothing more than an illusion to make the masses feel empowered thereby keeping them under control. I feel the vote on brexit has even bigger consequence than leaving the eu it's self and is now also a vote on whether the UK is a just and democratic society or one run by the elite for the few, anyone trying to overturn or water down brexit is feeding that.

[JohnfromUK]

Brexit was voted for and should therefore happen. I think most people agree on that. However no one I have met seems to know exactly what Brexit entails. We had the chief Remainers claiming it would mean economic disaster - and the chief Leavers claiming it would free masses of money that could go to the NHS.

I don't think anyone really knows the actual outcome in any detail; tariffs, duties on imports/exports, immigration and free movement, subsidies, carbon and pollution targets, in fact I think about the only thing we do seem to know is that we want our own court system to enforce the laws. Amen to that, but what those laws will be in the longer term, we don't know.

Europe wants our 'deal' to be seen as bad - or others will want to follow us - and their house of cards falls down. We of course want a 'good' deal. Most industry (car makers etc.) want tariff free. Many farmers want free labour movement (in some form) for seasonal pickers.

The EU wants a large divorce payment from us as (being major net contributors) our departure leaves a huge deficit in their spend spend spend budget plans. We want to pay nothing - as the money goes on things that won't involve us.

 

It is all a bit of a nightmare ........ but we voted for it, so it MUST happen

[12gauge82]

When brexit was put to a referendum there were two options, remain or leave, we all know what the outcome was, it's only since the majority voted the 'wrong' way that 'hard' or 'soft' brexit was mentioned, it is clearly nothing more than an attempt to reverse as much as possible the democrat will of the people.

[Vince Green]

We have to remember that EU agricultural subsidies have bankrupted many small farmers in the UK.

 

1) Because small farms don't qualify, you have to be more than a certain size. In France for example, this rule is conveniently by-passed .

 

2) In places like Spain, huge subsidies support industrial scale grown of things like tomatoes and the product are effectively dumped on the UK market at prices well below what British farmers can compete with.

 

3) Its riddled with fraud

 

4) Agricultural subsidies were originally only there to buy off French farmers who were too inefficient to compete with German farmers. Its an anachronism.

[Royboy]

Where I go shooting the Farmer voted stay and he said he can't understand any farmer that would vote to leave, he only rents this farm

[JohnfromUK]

Where I go shooting the Farmer voted stay and he said he can't understand any farmer that would vote to leave, he only rents this farm

I voted remain - despite loathing many aspects of the EU - because I understood what remain meant. What happened if we left was (in my view) neither George Osborne's & Mike Carney's predicted economic catastrophe - and nor was it Boris Johnson & Nigel Farage's paradise with savings all round and no immigration - all problems solved. Neither was ever going to happen - there are too many vested interests. To me leave was a whole series of unknowns ........

 

The vote went leave, I now fully support that (because I believe in democracy), but I am anxious to know what we are going to actually get (and what we won't get) from Brexit.

[ditchman]

The problem that is faced is the number of people in positions of power in this country who want the status quo to continue, I believe democracy is nothing more than an illusion to make the masses feel empowered thereby keeping them under control. I feel the vote on brexit has even bigger consequence than leaving the eu it's self and is now also a vote on whether the UK is a just and democratic society or one run by the elite for the few, anyone trying to overturn or water down brexit is feeding that.

 

 

 

very valid point..................

Brexit was voted for and should therefore happen. I think most people agree on that. However no one I have met seems to know exactly what Brexit entails. We had the chief Remainers claiming it would mean economic disaster - and the chief Leavers claiming it would free masses of money that could go to the NHS.

I don't think anyone really knows the actual outcome in any detail; tariffs, duties on imports/exports, immigration and free movement, subsidies, carbon and pollution targets, in fact I think about the only thing we do seem to know is that we want our own court system to enforce the laws. Amen to that, but what those laws will be in the longer term, we don't know.

Europe wants our 'deal' to be seen as bad - or others will want to follow us - and their house of cards falls down. We of course want a 'good' deal. Most industry (car makers etc.) want tariff free. Many farmers want free labour movement (in some form) for seasonal pickers.

The EU wants a large divorce payment from us as (being major net contributors) our departure leaves a huge deficit in their spend spend spend budget plans. We want to pay nothing - as the money goes on things that won't involve us.

 

It is all a bit of a nightmare ........ but we voted for it, so it MUST happen

 

 

 

before the EU...you must remember that seasonal workers were alll over the place here....IT IS NOT SOMETHING THE EU DREAMPT UP........i remember working on the local turkey farms.....and during the end of harvest...when we had to go bale carting ....the Portuguese and the Spanish came in "en-masse"...to take over the duties on the sheds............they were great to work with...got PAID EXACTLY THE SAME US US...lived in caravans and saved up A SHED LOAD OF MONEY to take home....they had no trouble with so called "freedom of movement"

 

the problem now is....they come over here wether they are wanted or not...work for less....and as a result you start to see wage suppression ....and dont tell me otherwise as it has happened all around here....and im sick of it....im sick of seeing my friends...being made redundant...then 2 months later all the jobs are filled with imports earning 20% less and working all hours...................

Edited July 27, 2017 by ditchman

[yod dropper]

There won't be any UK ingredients in the gravy train.

[Rewulf]

 

 

 

very valid point..................

 

 

 

before the EU...you must remember that seasonal workers were alll over the place here....IT IS NOT SOMETHING THE EU DREAMPT UP........i remember working on the local turkey farms.....and during the end of harvest...when we had to go bale carting ....the Portuguese and the Spanish came in "en-masse"...to take over the duties on the sheds............they were great to work with...got PAID EXACTLY THE SAME US US...lived in caravans and saved up A SHED LOAD OF MONEY to take home....they had no trouble with so called "freedom of movement"

 

the problem now is....they come over here wether they are wanted or not...work for less....and as a result you start to see wage suppression ....and dont tell me otherwise as it has happened all around here....and im sick of it....im sick of seeing my friends...being made redundant...then 2 months later all the jobs are filled with imports earning 20% less and working all hours...................

 

Bang on the money Ditchman

[Paul1440]

It wasn't as straightforward as that. From (distant) memory, when we joined there was a so called "Green Pound" that was a fiddle factor which was used to calculate the value of financial support within the Common Agricultural Policy until 1999. What it meant was that for agricultural subsidies paid to European farmers, a less favourable exchange rate than the real exchange rate (this was pre Euro) was used, so effectively UK farmers received a lower price for their goods than European farmers.

What people tend to forget these days is that Ted Heath was so desperate to join the EU (it was called a Common Market then) that he would have sold his own mother (even his yacht and grand piano) for a penny just to be allowed in - remember the UK application had previously been rejected by De Gaulle in 1963 (he was an ungrateful pig as we had saved is skin and his country in WW2).

Therefore Heath signed up to a very bad deal for the UK (which in true politician style he boasted of as a triumph). What Heath's deal basically meant was that UK farmers were paid roughly half what other EU farmers were, and the UK as a whole was a MASSIVE payer into EU funds - most of which were then spent on agriculture. This was eventually largely corrected by Mrs Thatcher in 1984 in the form of a so called rebate (66% of the agricultural payments) - but the saving didn't go to farmers, but just into general government coffers. It was at that time that Mrs Thatcher managed to actually reduce the British national debt a bit.

Some of this rebate was subsequently given back to the EU by Blair in circa 2007

Those oc that can remember that far back know that Heath was desperate due to the complete mess country was in.

 

Lets hope we don"t end up back there.

[Vince Green]

Those oc that can remember that far back know that Heath was desperate due to the complete mess country was in.

 

Lets hope we don"t end up back there.

 

One reason the country was in the mess it was in back then was the malevolent power exerted by the Unions. By joining the Common Market he inadvertently started a process which helped break the power of the union. Cheap, unregulated labour has flooded the country and now we have to deal with that mess.