TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Will they succumb to the accountants? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/15/mps-scramble-rescue-iconic-red-arrows-hawk-jets/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-dot Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Hope so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 I hope not, they are worlds best something for us to be proud of. They showcase Britain’s airforce pilots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon Shredder. Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Hope so... Come on then what's your objection based on this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Also hope not, brilliant displays and something for the UK to be proud of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-dot Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 UK government are closing hospitals and cutting back on all public services up and down the land in the name of austerity and yet these planes will turn up at the opening of an envelope blowing red white and blue smoke. Seen it a hundred times.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan7626 Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 It would be a crying shame if we lost the red arrows. Often see then fly over and can't help but feel proud they are British Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriBsa Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 I am confused by the article, perhaps it is poorly written. As I understand it, the Red Arrows fly the RAF's advanced basic trainer the Hawk and before that the Gnat. So are they saying order more Hawk trainers en mass for the RAF now or risk losing the manufaturing capability and in future have to buy a foreign aircraft? Are the Red Arrows being used as an emotive argument as part of a larger decision? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 The red arrows should certainly be retained. However, retaining a particular model of aircraft is not the same thing, and should not be the same issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clakk Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 They are saying if they dont replace till 2030 when they are due to retire from service the production line will be gone ,long gone .The current cuts to BAE include Hawk production line as no orders in sight = no need for the Production line. So in 2030 the Red arrows will need new arrows but we wont have any British made planes available atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 UK government are closing hospitals and cutting back on all public services up and down the land in the name of austerity and yet these planes will turn up at the opening of an envelope blowing red white and blue smoke. Seen it a hundred times.... Although in the "hope not" camp being ex RAF, the above, unfortunately, is a valid argument. How many towns still have the various armed forces recruitment offices? I was in an RAF gymnastics team and our displays were always at schools. Why? The primary role of the display teams of the modern era (if not always) - the Black Knights, the Blue Diamonds and the Red Arrows - is recruitment. With the reduction in Service numbers, is this level of expenditure still valid or will the occasional newspaper/media/TV advert suffice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph5172 Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 They are saying if they dont replace till 2030 when they are due to retire from service the production line will be gone ,long gone .The current cuts to BAE include Hawk production line as no orders in sight = no need for the Production line. So in 2030 the Red arrows will need new arrows but we wont have any British made planes available atb Didn't they try the same with Layland DAF by renewing the Royal Mail and Government fleet with DAF vans - it only delayed the inevitable (as DAF were just piles of junk!) They should be retained, if i recall they cost between 6-9 £million a year to run (all in) in the grand scheme of spending it isnt actually that much, and as a training platform for fast jet pilots in close maneuver and advanced flying i doubt you could get better than a stint with the Red Arrows. Should they bring into service a replacement jet (new design or current) a good 13 years ahead of schedule i dont know to be honest, i would have thought the spares and service support would have been calculated to give a date of 2030 so its a bit like getting rid of your car early and constantly buying new as one day they may stop making it. I remember reading the actual cost of the jet was 2.XX Million They could buy 20 new ones now and mothball them, the service support contract will still be the same as the platforms are still flying, (old ones for 13 years or new ones immediately with a working set of spares) you will only ever prolong the support contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-dot Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 As Billy Connoly said.... no a bad turn but on too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriBsa Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 They are saying if they dont replace till 2030 when they are due to retire from service the production line will be gone ,long gone .The current cuts to BAE include Hawk production line as no orders in sight = no need for the Production line. So in 2030 the Red arrows will need new arrows but we wont have any British made planes available atb The problem is, we don't back our own industry. It's no good blaming the EU on this, take a look at France and it's track record of building it's own planes. Dassault seem to do very well and manage to win export orders. Instead, we have gone for european collabaration i.e. Jaguar, Tornado and Tempest. The game has always been the same in that each country says it will buy X amount to get a big slice of shared production and then surprise surprise once manufacturing is divied up they cut back on their nation's requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) The problem is, we don't back our own industry. It's no good blaming the EU on this, take a look at France and it's track record of building it's own planes. Dassault seem to do very well and manage to win export orders. Instead, we have gone for european collabaration i.e. Jaguar, Tornado and Tempest. The game has always been the same in that each country says it will buy X amount to get a big slice of shared production and then surprise surprise once manufacturing is divied up they cut back on their nation's requirements. Think TSR2 and there's the reason why. Edited October 16, 2017 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clakk Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Short sighted ,short term profit ,take your money and run ,seems to be the modern finance model for British industry .Long term 5th biggest defence industry in the world is going down the ladder asap.You can build new infrastructure but where are the experienced engineers and assembly workers long retired or working elsewhere . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) Gentlemen, the BAE Hawks flown by the Reds are the T1a model. Not been made for years! The RAF bought two Squadrons of the later more capable T2 but do not appear keen to buy more for the display team. Current plans see the T1a's going on until 2030 by utilising the stored aircraft and components with less hours used on them. Edited October 16, 2017 by TIGHTCHOKE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph5172 Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Gentlemen, the BAE Hawks flown by the Reds are the T1a model. Not been made for years! The RAF bought two Squadrons of the later more capable T2 but do not appear keen to buy more for the display team. Current plans see the T1a's going on until 2030 by utilising the stored aircraft and components with less hours used on them. Knowing that do you think they are making the best of the situation knowing they can keep the capability (and the training advantages) till 2030 at relatively low cost and by that time things may have changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Pity they are unable to see their way to ensuring a viable future? NHS, nearly gone, when will people wake up? Stupid HS2, words fail? Air craft carrier, well nearly but no planes? Ain't we doing well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 The Pilots and the ground-crew involved in the Red Arrows or the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team as they are officially titled are the very best of the best. They stay a few years and then move on taking their knowledge and good practices with them and pass them on to the wider air force. With planned stored aircraft and components keeping them in the air until 2030, it would appear that the plans are already in place to keep them flying. BAe Systems did not get the contract they were hoping for with the Indian Air Force and the latest version of the Hawk will unfortunately be the last of the type. If someone had the wherewithal to actually plan ahead, find the funding and get BAe Systems to build a short run of 20 Advanced Hawks, that would allow for continuity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 The other side is BAE are announcing cut backs due to a down turn in orders, Indian orders cannot be relied on politics comes into it, they don't just want a plane, they want the technology, to assemble and build themselves. Sure I heard on the radio calls from mps to save the red arrows and build them in Britain not france safe guarding jobs at BAE, so political. Also *** Vauxhall saying 400 jobs to go as its cheaper for them to build in France. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanj Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) The other side is BAE are announcing cut backs due to a down turn in orders, Indian orders cannot be relied on politics comes into it, they don't just want a plane, they want the technology, to assemble and build themselves. Sure I heard on the radio calls from mps to save the red arrows and build them in Britain not france safe guarding jobs at BAE, so political. Also *** Vauxhall saying 400 jobs to go as its cheaper for them to build in France. Of course its cheaper to build in france, isnt their car industry bankrolled to some degree by the state ? The Pilots and the ground-crew involved in the Red Arrows or the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team as they are officially titled are the very best of the best. They stay a few years and then move on taking their knowledge and good practices with them and pass them on to the wider air force. With planned stored aircraft and components keeping them in the air until 2030, it would appear that the plans are already in place to keep them flying. BAe Systems did not get the contract they were hoping for with the Indian Air Force and the latest version of the Hawk will unfortunately be the last of the type. If someone had the wherewithal to actually plan ahead, find the funding and get BAe Systems to build a short run of 20 Advanced Hawks, that would allow for continuity. Maybe there should be a few more strings attached to the overseas "aid" we give to India Edited October 16, 2017 by spanj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krugerandsmith Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 Will they succumb to the accountants? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/15/mps-scramble-rescue-iconic-red-arrows-hawk-jets/ Very good formation team but .... I preferred the ... Black Arrows, more aircraft and still hold formation display records to this day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 Personally cant stand the Red Arrows, complete waste of money in my opinion - but it would be a different matter if the Aircraft they used was a decent fighter that could be "Combat ready" with a few minor alterations - much like the American display teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 Personally cant stand the Red Arrows, complete waste of money in my opinion - but it would be a different matter if the Aircraft they used was a decent fighter that could be "Combat ready" with a few minor alterations - much like the American display teams. The Red Hawk T1as would be sprayed grey and fitted with an Aden gun and a pair of Sidewinders as local air defence assets as soon as things got going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.