silioquy, TO run in OR NOT TO run in

[iamspuddy]

its a dog thing but for wildfowling so i put it here.

my dog a young chessie runs in when i shoot  , not his problem as i have not discouraged it as he is only used for fowling and we have strong tides here ( river severn and surrounding areas ) 

i can understand if you have a peg dog  and shoot with or close to other people , but wildfowling is predominantly  a solitary sport so my thoughts were, i want him in the water asap before its out of site . 

i just wondered what other wildfowlers do regarding this , as i have friends on both sides of the argument .

steve

 

 

 

 

[Big Mat]

I would rather mine didn't, especially if there are geese in the air, but sometimes running it saves you for a long search fetching something.

 

I have just finished repairing a hide that a rather over enthusiastic young Labrador went straight through last season ?

[lancer425]

With you both on running in a little and if strong tides too its not the crime it is in other shooting sports, but i will say being rock solid on the call off in a retrieve at any point is absolutely essential.

  Young dogs can be strong willed if not held hard on this aspect.

  Running in can if its endemic in the dog be a proper pain if busy on say duck decoying you need good control of a steady dog, so they know what is  going on, banging out ducks as dogs on retrieve is never a clever thing to do. anymore than missing out on shots because the dog decided to go it alone all by itself, you need control when you want it.

 So yes up to a point but you can not let them do it routine or you end up in difficulties one way or another..

Edited November 14, 2017 by lancer425

[iamspuddy]

I'm sort of half way house , if he goes and i don't want him to, a whistle or shout and he turns round and comes back , but i don't have to tell him to go initially as he sees the bird and hears the shot and is off  .

 

[motty]

I don't know why anyone would want their dog to run in. It only takes a second to send a dog.

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, iamspuddy said:

I'm sort of half way house , if he goes and i don't want him to, a whistle or shout and he turns round and comes back , but i don't have to tell him to go initially as he sees the bird and hears the shot and is off  .

 

 I supose i am 78ths control 8th give the dog his head time and experience pays dividends here . As long as you are the  ultimate decider on if he goes rather like basic retrieving training its yours not his you decide not him as long as they understand that.

Use them enough and most dogs  will pick up on what happens and when and when not to do things, is what all good team work is about and gets better the more you are out fowling.

 

5 minutes ago, motty said:

I don't know why anyone would want their dog to run in. It only takes a second to send a dog.

I dont think anyone wants them to run in as such routinely, but its not such a problem on strong tides like rivers that’s the point being raised here, its more to be accepted up to a point, in some circumstances, not encouraged as  such just tolerated when appropriate. .

[motty]

9 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

 I supose i am 78ths control 8th give the dog his head time and experience pays dividends here . As long as you are the  ultimate decider on if he goes rather like basic retrieving training its yours not his you decide not him as long as they understand that.

Use them enough and most dogs  will pick up on what happens and when and when not to do things, is what all good team work is about and gets better the more you are out fowling.

 

I dont think anyone wants them to run in as such routinely, but its not such a problem on strong tides like rivers that’s the point being raised here, its more to be accepted up to a point, in some circumstances, not encouraged as  such just tolerated when appropriate. .

As I said before, it takes only a second to send a dog. If required, it can be sent on a retrieve before the bird has hit the water. In my view, running in is never acceptable.

Imagine you knock down a triple on wigeon. Your first lands twenty yards away on dry land. Your second and third land forty yards away in the fast moving tide. Unfortunately your dog has run in and is looking for your first bird. Your dog comes trotting back with the first bird while the others are now drifting away.

[bishop]

I agree with Motty on this one.I have a year old lab here thats pretty good on the whole but if he does run in he gets reprimanded .It has to be this way although i do feel it ,unavoidably,dampens his spirits.Imagine a strong tide , a winger flapping away low  a few feet above the tide and out to a rough  sea.Do you really want your hound running on without you knowing if and where he will end up,possibly drowning through sheer over enthusiasm?Naaaa keep the dog safe .part of the famly 1st and foremost.Disclipline can feel harsh when they are young  but it may well save their lives .And i had a double earlier this season ,exactly what motty was on about.The lab stayed firm im delighted to say and insinctively went for the bird furthest out that was at that point a flapper.The duck  dived and the dog came back in and stole the first bird !!!I had to laugh,The furthest away surfaced again so he legged it back out for his original prize ,but its a learning curve and so rewarding when it all comers together for them

Edited November 15, 2017 by bishop

[lancer425]

9 hours ago, motty said:

As I said before, it takes only a second to send a dog. If required, it can be sent on a retrieve before the bird has hit the water. In my view, running in is never acceptable.

Imagine you knock down a triple on wigeon. Your first lands twenty yards away on dry land. Your second and third land forty yards away in the fast moving tide. Unfortunately your dog has run in and is looking for your first bird. Your dog comes trotting back with the first bird while the others are now drifting away.

As i said earlier you need to decide what you will accept, and see your point and exactly what i meant here in my first post on the subject below

, >Running in can if its endemic in the dog be a proper pain if busy on say duck decoying you need good control of a steady dog, so they know what is  going on.

         

Edited November 15, 2017 by lancer425

[Penelope]

12 hours ago, iamspuddy said:

its a dog thing but for wildfowling so i put it here.

my dog a young chessie runs in when i shoot  , not his problem as i have not discouraged it as he is only used for fowling and we have strong tides here ( river severn and surrounding areas ) 

i can understand if you have a peg dog  and shoot with or close to other people , but wildfowling is predominantly  a solitary sport so my thoughts were, i want him in the water asap before its out of site . 

i just wondered what other wildfowlers do regarding this , as i have friends on both sides of the argument .

steve

 

 

 

 

What if you have to take a shot at a winged duck on the water and your dogs runs in? With the best will in the world a dog should be steady and not move until told, eventually the dog will run in at every shot even if quarry is not brought down.

[JDog]

Running in cannot possibly be acceptable whether on a game shoot, wildfowling or decoying. All it shows to me is that it is the dog not the human which is in charge.

If I start to watch  YouTube video of shooting and there are dogs that run in I switch it off immediately.

 

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, JDog said:

Running in cannot possibly be acceptable whether on a game shoot, wildfowling or decoying. All it shows to me is that it is the dog not the human which is in charge.

If I start to watch  YouTube video of shooting and there are dogs that run in I switch it off immediately.

 

Spot on.

[figgy]

Seems an American thing to let your dog run in. If your happy for your dog to do so it don’t matter what others think. So long as your dog retrieves the downed birds that’s all that matters. 

My dog likes to run in but I stop him as I don’t want him going in when other birds are coming in. 

[ips]

agree with motty.

steadiness to shot, flush or fall should be the default for all gundogs.

[shakin stevens]

In some circumstances you are that low in a gully and your  dog doesnt even see what you have shot , so it would be no point it running in.

You sometimes have to cast them on to find the bird, if its a strong bird I will send mine in , regardless of how many birds are coming off , seen loads of geese make it back over mud , and never picked .

[mudpatten]

 

I much prefer, and strive for, a dog that doesn`t run in to FALL but I fully understand what you mean about retrieving in difficult terrain like the Severn.

My pet hate is a dog that runs in to SHOT. Dogs that are permitted to do this are an unmitigated pain in the ***.

[iamspuddy]

Just to clarify 

maybe i should have worded my initial post a bit better ,my dog runs in because thats what i chose because of some of the terrain i shoot , other parts are perfectly "normal" .

Dog safety is paramount and i have the confidence in his recall that if he did go i can always stop and recall him

on a "safe " shoot he won't run in if i tell him to wait  before i shoot  ,

this works for me .

[ips]

if it works for you then all is good. But surely its better all round if the default in the dogs head is to be steady rather than the other way around. ??

[marsh man]

99% of my wildfowling now is evening flights on flooded marshes with only myself to worry about , my last dog used to be off as soon as he saw a duck clipped , dead or going down at an angle with a wing down and to tell you the truth it didn't bother me one bit , on one of the above posts it mentioned about directing your dog onto a chosen retrieve , well in the dark you cant see the dog and he the cant see you , so you have to rely on his ability to find game , and I am sure they develop there own method of doing things.

On a good season he would pick up 100+ duck and several geese , he done the retrieving and I just done the shooting , when it came to game and pigeon shooting then that was a completely different type of shooting , I used to take the same dog on a lot of shoots and if I was lucky enough to be standing on a peg I would slip a lead over his neck and slip the other end over my stick or the stick with the number on and that is where he stayed sitting down until the drive was over , the same in a pigeon hide , for the first few times when the fowling season is over I would put a loose lead on him until I was sure he had got duck shooting out of his head and then he could be trusted to stay put.

I have helped out on several field trials and if I am honest about it not one of my dogs would have made the grade of some of the better dogs I have seen entered , but when it come down to using game finding knowledge , I dare say my dogs would have given them a good run for there money , at the end of the day I love seeing good dogs work , but if you are happy with whatever standard yours are at and they are under control then just get out there and enjoy there company .

 

 

 

[flippermaj]

I agree with motty a dog should be steady.

i have two dogs, the old one is my first dog and I didn't do a good enough job and the dog runs in to the extent that I only have to raise the gun and he has moved off a couple of yards in anticipation and will spook the birds, therefore he has to be pegged down and I then have to battle to get him off the lead for a retrieve as he is all revved up.

my second dog in contrast is rock steady (not sure quite how that happened!).  First few times out I would shoot something and then think eh? Where's the dog as I was used to the old one running in.  I would then look to my feet to see him sitting there waiting to be told to go out!

Which is better, the steady dog by a country mile.

[6.5x55SE]

When Whitefront's was a regular feature in the bag i took a Driven game shot with his very well trained dog to a secluded water splash hoping to get him his first Whitefront.

At last knockings seven dark shapes appear 2 shots from the guest nothing my first connected. My lab ignored the dead Goose disappeared for what seem a age only to return with another Whitefront whilst my guest worked his to pick my first Goose my lab disappeared again.

We had made it back to the seawall whilst my ears got beat with I'd never own a Dog like yours etc my answer was he stops when i shot he goes when he knows best his eyes and ears are far better than mine he is a proper Fowler's dog his attitude changed when i said i take you don't want you're first Whitefront  

Apologies for a long winded reply for a coastal Wildfowling dog i want a controllable dog with its own mind that i use it's ears and eye's to help bag a bird or 2

[marsh man]

I know exactly what you mean Boyd when you say , you want a controllable dog with its own mind that use its eyes and ears when it come to retrieving wildfowl .

I often smile to myself when a trainer cant bring a dog on to his standard and then advertise it as , it would make a good wildfowling dog , as I said in a previous post , I have seen some very good dogs on some of the trials we have held , a credit to there trainers , but on the other hand I have seen some very poor dogs , some that looked like they couldn't eat there dinner unless there shown where it is and then told to eat it .

We had one where a Pheasant was shot by a walking gun , the bird laid in full view on the plough , the handler nearest to the gun was asked to get it , after a lot of arm waving and whistling the dog was constantly looking and waiting for instructions , in the end the dog was called back as he / she had ran out of time  , maybe it might have made a good wildfowling dog if it was left to work it out without the help of the trainer , but I would have my doubts .

P S....... On that trial a young keeper from Sangringham won it with a dog that was in class of its own , we finished on time with no run offs as he had already won on his last retrieve. 

[scolopax]

I would always want the opportunity to shoot a wounded bird on the water before the dog went for the retrieve. So that kind of answers the question.

[iamspuddy]

i agree with the above comments  ,but i also think its horses for courses.it suits me to do it ar*e backwards , on a splash, pond ,even top of the tide i have it covered with a "wait" command . But we have 14m spring tides if i shoot something in a half empty river on a big tide  it disappears at a very brisk walking pace, couple that with the dog running out through 30m soft  gloopy mud before it hits the water and then possibly returning through 100m of the same mud with the retrieve coming back  i want him on the hoof as soon as the bird is falling . But not before ,and thats what we have been working to.

 As for a 3 bird shoot scenario , can't do it in this situation ,one bird only . 

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, iamspuddy said:

 

 As for a 3 bird shoot scenario , can't do it in this situation ,one bird only . 

. You wont in fast rivers unless running more than one dog. 

Knocking five out made life even more complicated, that was until the 12th of September 1981.