Looks like Lincolnshire have kicked off compulsory doctors reports

[bostonmick]

2 hours ago, David BASC said:

If you are a member , call for help and advice

I am a member of both BASC and CPSA. The question should not be for individuals to contact you for advice. Why should law abiding sportsmen who have complied with all the home office guidelines then be placed under further stress with forces making their own demands and doctors either charging whatever is their whim or refusing to supply any information as they just do not like guns. Not that they know why they don't like them. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by bostonmick

[David BASC]

Yes, there should be fair and equal application of law, if you feel you are not being treated properly with your licence renewal then let us know, we will help if we can, the advice we can give will always be based on the information we are given and yes members do have the £250,000 legal expenses cover within their membership package.

David

[panoma1]

David, Is that the way BASC has decided to test Lincolnshire police's imposition of a "no medical report no certificate" condition?...... By supporting individual BASC member application refusals, in a court which creates precedent? 

[Graham M]

Strange isn't it. One of the biggest mass murderers in history (Harold Shipman) was a doctor.

Victoria Chua, a nurse who was convicted last year of murdering 19 of her patients.

Niels Höge, a German nurse who killed 90 patients by injecting them with cardiovascular medication.

Ward sister Barbara Salisbury, who tried to kill elderly patients in order to free up NHS beds.

Beverley Allitt, a nurse who murdered 4 babies and tried to murder 3 more before being caught.

Elizabeth Wettlaufer murdered 8 elderly patients in her care and attempted to kill 4 others.

Staff nurse Colin Norris, nicknamed "The angel of Death", murdered 4 patients in his care.

And there are probably many more. 

And yet doctors get on their high horses about anyone who wants to legally own a firearm.

 

[Vince Green]

But the most dangerous outcome is that people wont go to their doctor for help when they have a problem because they know the confidentially between a doctor and a patient doesn't exist anymore.

[Scully]

19 minutes ago, Graham M said:

Strange isn't it. One of the biggest mass murderers in history (Harold Shipman) was a doctor.

Victoria Chua, a nurse who was convicted last year of murdering 19 of her patients.

Niels Höge, a German nurse who killed 90 patients by injecting them with cardiovascular medication.

Ward sister Barbara Salisbury, who tried to kill elderly patients in order to free up NHS beds.

Beverley Allitt, a nurse who murdered 4 babies and tried to murder 3 more before being caught.

Elizabeth Wettlaufer murdered 8 elderly patients in her care and attempted to kill 4 others.

Staff nurse Colin Norris, nicknamed "The angel of Death", murdered 4 patients in his care.

And there are probably many more. 

And yet doctors get on their high horses about anyone who wants to legally own a firearm.

 

?

Edited April 12, 2018 by Scully

[Bazooka Joe]

Ok David, Basc has had more than enough time to seek advice on this matter, so what's the update.

Quote

yes members do have the £250,000 legal expenses cover within their membership package.

You've mentioned this a few times now,

I'm getting the impression Basc want individuals to fight a case in court instead of Basc.?

Basc are the ones who need to make the stance for ALL it's members & contest this.

[bostonmick]

1 hour ago, David BASC said:

Yes, there should be fair and equal application of law, if you feel you are not being treated properly with your licence renewal then let us know, we will help if we can, the advice we can give will always be based on the information we are given and yes members do have the £250,000 legal expenses cover within their membership package.

David

So has BASC not heard how Lincolnshire are treating its certificate holders unfairly to the rest of the country. Well let me be the one to inform you now. As for the insurance package I believe there to be over 30 thousand certs on issue in lincs alone so will your underwriters cover each and everyone of these up to the 250k.i think you would soon see your cover being withdrawn. This is not a case of a few who feel they are being unfairly treated. This is one of the largest rural counties in England and thereby many thousands of individuals. A singe Court case could as we know take years to complete so what is the BASC advice on what the shooter does with this enforced break. Wake up BASC before the members put you to sleep permanently 

[Piebob]

I'm desperate to hear what the advice might be!  Are there no Lincolnshire BASC members on here about to renew?

[bostonmick]

6 minutes ago, Piebob said:

I'm desperate to hear what the advice might be!  Are there no Lincolnshire BASC members on here about to renew?

I doubt you will hear much at all. I would say that people will just pay the doctors demands to maintain their shooting. There may be the odd case where the apiicant has a problem with their doctor but feel sure this will be fudged over by BASC. 

[rogcal]

Perhaps I should explain a little more about my reasons for disposing of all my firearms and not renewing my certs.

Certain aspects of shooting no longer appealed to me and a few mobility issues didn't help either.

The fact that I shall be moving and no longer own several acres of land would remove the requirement to have a "need" to possess firearms for pest control purposes however, I did fancy taking up pistol shooting again after the move as I would be close to an authorised range but this would be based on how strongly I felt about it when the time came.

I rang the licencing dept to discuss renewing both certs but not holding any firearms on them to allow me a choice of what if any shooting disciplines I'd follow after I'd moved and settled in.

Their response was pretty ambiguous and given the fact that I'd have to jump through their newly imposed hoops for what maybe no reason at all if I decided not to pursue any form of shooting, I decided to dispose of everything and surrender my certs.

I suppose I could reapply at some later date and seeing as I shall still be living in Lincolnshire those same hoops will still need jumping through but with my move will come a change of GP which could make things easier as my current GP is a conscientious objector to firearms and has made his feelings on the subject quite clear in the past .  This is one aspect of the "new" LincsPol licencing regime does worry me greatly and in my case if my GP refused to complete a report because of his personal objections to firearms, I would have to ask one of his colleagues to carry out the function and as I have only seen him over the last 15 years, the only info his colleague would have to go on would be my medical history alone and not know a thing about me as a person.

[zipdog]

A better system would be when anyone is granted a shotgun or firearms certificate their GP is notified and a note placed on their file. Then, if at any stage in the future, the GP is aware of a problem which he believes impacts on a persons judgement or their ability to use a firearm correctly the doctor can inform the police of his concerns.

[bostonmick]

13 minutes ago, zipdog said:

A better system would be when anyone is granted a shotgun or firearms certificate their GP is notified and a note placed on their file. Then, if at any stage in the future, the GP is aware of a problem which he believes impacts on a persons judgement or their ability to use a firearm correctly the doctor can inform the police of his concerns.

That is already in place

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, zipdog said:

A better system would be when anyone is granted a shotgun or firearms certificate their GP is notified and a note placed on their file. Then, if at any stage in the future, the GP is aware of a problem which he believes impacts on a persons judgement or their ability to use a firearm correctly the doctor can inform the police of his concerns.

This is the system we have now.
When your doctor ,or any other HCP access your medical notes, it come up on the screen that firearms are kept at this address .
When a cert is granted or undergoing appraisal , the doctor is asked if there is any reason why the applicant should not have a cert issued.
The problem we are having with counties like Lincolnshire, is the doctors are charging the applicant, with the backing of the police for this service.

[andrewluke]

1 hour ago, bostonmick said:

So has BASC not heard how Lincolnshire are treating its certificate holders unfairly to the rest of the country. Well let me be the one to inform you now. As for the insurance package I believe there to be over 30 thousand certs on issue in lincs alone so will your underwriters cover each and everyone of these up to the 250k.i think you would soon see your cover being withdrawn. This is not a case of a few who feel they are being unfairly treated. This is one of the largest rural counties in England and thereby many thousands of individuals. A singe Court case could as we know take years to complete so what is the BASC advice on what the shooter does with this enforced break. Wake up BASC before the members put you to sleep permanently 

don't expect BASC to help an individual in court,an ex member of my wildfowling club had problems getting his shotgun cert after suffering depression,he had a cert previous to suffering depression,he took it to court with the help of BASC, on the day of his appearance in court he waited and waited outside to meet the BASC representative who was meant to help him,the BASC representative did not turn up,the ex member of my wildfowling club dealt with the situation by himself and got his cert no thanks to BASC .

[bostonmick]

As far as I am aware and no doubt someone may be able to correct me if wrong. But it is your right to have a shotgun. Unless the authorities can show just cause why not. I think we all would agree that people with certain conditions should not be granted. However a GP having a personal dislike to guns and not responding to police can In no way be classed as just cause. I will pay any modest fee if it makes for smooth continuation. However this would mean the end of any subscription to any organisation from that time. Fac has a different set of rules where good reason and also approved areas in which to use them. We already give authority for access to or medical records. We have it flagged up on doctors computer everytime we visitsurvery. Now they want to a third route for the same information where will it end. 

20 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

don't expect BASC to help an individual in court,an ex member of my wildfowling club had problems getting his shotgun cert after suffering depression,he had a cert previous to suffering depression,he took it to court with the help of BASC, on the day of his appearance in court he waited and waited outside to meet the BASC representative who was meant to help him,the BASC representative did not turn up,the ex member of my wildfowling club dealt with the situation by himself and got his cert no thanks to BASC .

Maybe his court date clashed with one of their many annual dinner and free bar events

Edited April 12, 2018 by bostonmick

[Gordon R]

Quote

David, Is that the way BASC has decided to test Lincolnshire police's imposition of a "no medical report no certificate" condition?...... By supporting individual BASC member application refusals, in a court which creates precedent? 

That is the pertinent question that lies on the table for BASC.

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

As far as I am aware and no doubt someone may be able to correct me if wrong. But it is your right to have a shotgun. Unless the authorities can show just cause why not. I think we all would agree that people with certain conditions should not be granted. However a GP having a personal dislike to guns and not responding to police can In no way be classed as just cause. I will pay any modest fee if it makes for smooth continuation. However this would mean the end of any subscription to any organisation from that time. Facebook has a different set of rules where good reason and also approved areas in which to use them. We already give authority for access to or medical records. We have it flagged up on doctors computer everytime we visitsurvery. Now they want to a third route for the same information where will it end. 

Nope.
If you were to tell an FEO 'I just want one' without saying 'I am thinking about starting clay pigeon shooting' or ' I have some land to do pest control'
I wouldnt have thought you would be granted.
The rules between sec 1 and 2 are different though, as with sec 1 you have to have the 'good reason' in place BEFORE the application.
Where as for sec 2 , the intention for reason is sufficient.

I would say ,if a GP would not confirm you are fit to possess, because 'he doesnt like guns' then change your GP and report him, as he is clearly acting out of his remit.
I like you, would pay a reasonable fee, as the way I see it, its once every 5 years, and not a heavy cost.

[Graham M]

I have given David a hammering before on this site on the subject of John Swift and his stance on lead (before he came clean about wanting us all to change to non-toxic).

He was very keen to push the BASC stance then because he had some answers on the subject. I feel that he is now desperately looking for answers to this subject and simply cannot find them at Marford Mill.

I personally would like to give him at least SOME time to come up with an answer that is credible.

 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Yes he can have as long as he likes, unfortunately I suspect Lincolnshire Police will not wait for him or BASC!

[bostonmick]

. I have no intention of giving David a hard time. In fact I have in the past said all shooters should support BASC. I admired the man for coming onto an open forum and taking the stick he sometimes got. However this is a different thing now. We have a force publicly flying in the face of home office guidance which was laid out for them and us to adhere to. The police have made this stand and done it in a Way that the whole country could see that we as sportsmen have no back up whatsoever. As our largest organisation has just buried its head in the sand hoping it all goes away. Advice like if you feel you are being unfairly treated give us a call does not cut it when it is blatantly obvious to the whole country lincs are. 

[mossy835]

we should not have to go to basc if there is a problem.it should be sorted be for it comes to that.

[Seadog1408]

Let's hope BASC step up to the plate and challenge this without the need of members having to fight this on an individual basis.

[bostonmick]

4 minutes ago, mossy835 said:

we should not have to go to basc if there is a problem.it should be sorted be for it comes to that.

By who may I ask. 

3 minutes ago, Seadog1408 said:

Let's hope BASC step up to the plate and challenge this without the need of members having to fight this on an individual basis.

Lincolnshire police took to national television to throw down the gauntlet. And all of our organisations have avoided picking it up like the plague. 

[McSpredder]

9 hours ago, Graham M said:

One of the biggest mass murderers in history (Harold Shipman) was a doctor......And yet doctors get on their high horses about anyone who wants to legally own a firearm.

Since the end of WW2, two notorious GPs may have murdered almost 400 of their own patients (215 deaths attributed to Harold Shipman, and 163 to John Bodkin Adams).   How does that compare with the total killed by licenced gun owners over that period?

 

UK certificate holders currently outnumber GPs by about fifteen to one (approx 750,000 SGC/FAC holders, just over 51,000 registered GPs).   Do these statistics suggest that a citizen is far more likely to be killed by a GP than by a licensed gun owner?