Side by Side Club

[buze]

Any opinions on Winchester Model 23 "Pigeon Grade"? We found a tiny one (24" barrels) that is a perfect fit for my wife, and she shoots it very well. It has all the 'new features' like single trigger, barrel selectors etc, however, it needs a service and some work on the wood.

Any general opinion on these guns? Reliable? 

Some pics, including the one next to my 30" guerini for size comparison :-) !

 

[London Best]

The Winchester mod 23 seems to be well thought of and sought after. A friend of mine has had one since 1979 and won’t part with it.

I have to say that  personally, they are not for me. Most of them ( not yours I see) have beaver tail fore-ends and pistol grip stocks. Add single trigger and a barrel selector and, for me, that pretty much completes the list of what a sxs should not have. But that’s just me.

[Gunman]

OK well made guns but a a bit of a pig  to strip down and re assemble .Spares are a problem should you need them , no matter what any one says about sourcing abroad .

As a gun for a lady I approve of the straight hand stock as so many women find the size of a normal pistol/half hand is not always suitable to their hand size . Short barrels will cut weight and make the gun better handling for her .

If you are going to have the wood worked on you might consider having the forend slimmed down as well as having the toe reduced as I always found this helped women in general to get a more consistent and comfortable mount .

As to single triggers on a side by side , not a great fan but these seemed to be quite reliable and it is an "American" gun so it is to be expected .

 

[buze]

Actually single trigger is something I was looking for -- given her small hands, accessing both trigger on her existing gun is a problem as she literally have to move her hand back as she shoots. not terribly handy. The single trigger fixes that.

I know it's not a 'proper' trad SxS, but she already has one of these, lovely ,and quite 'precious' -- that Winchester would be ideal for banging about, rough shooting or walked on -- it's also very much easier to cart around than the 28" alternative in bushes.

I hear you about spares/fixes -- the gun is going to be serviced before I buy it anyway, so *hopefully* it should be reliable for the foreseable future!

[London Best]

11 minutes ago, buze said:

Actually single trigger is something I was looking for -- given her small hands, accessing both trigger on her existing gun is a problem as she literally have to move her hand back as she shoots. not terribly handy. The single trigger fixes that.

I know it's not a 'proper' trad SxS, but she already has one of these, lovely ,and quite 'precious' -- that Winchester would be ideal for banging about, rough shooting or walked on -- it's also very much easier to cart around than the 28" alternative in bushes.

I hear you about spares/fixes -- the gun is going to be serviced before I buy it anyway, so *hopefully* it should be reliable for the foreseable future!

Surely everyone uses double triggers by sliding their hand very slightly for the back trigger?  It must be nearly impossible to do otherwise. I can tell I move my hand for the second shot if I have to use a gun with a half pistol grip, as the grip is in the way. 

[buze]

2 hours ago, London Best said:

Surely everyone uses double triggers by sliding their hand very slightly for the back trigger?  It must be nearly impossible to do otherwise. I can tell I move my hand for the second shot if I have to use a gun with a half pistol grip, as the grip is in the way. 

No, I don't. I'm quite handy with a SxS and I put the first trigger on the near-tip of my index, and let my finger 'fall' on the second one for the second barrels. Moving my hand around while the gun is still shaking from the recoil seems like a rather challenging prospect to me.

[London Best]

@ Buze

I have used sxs for nearly sixty years, in fact, I only own double triggered sxs guns. I have two with half pistol stocks, both four tens as it happens and using those or someone else’s gun with anything but a straight stock is when I realise that I actually slide my hand. It is maybe only a quarter of an inch. Never aware that my hand moves with a straight stock but it obviously does. I can’t understand what you mean by “the gun still shaking from the recoil”. I am never aware of any recoil.

[NoBodyImportant]

5 hours ago, London Best said:

@ Buze

I have used sxs for nearly sixty years, in fact, I only own double triggered sxs guns. I have two with half pistol stocks, both four tens as it happens and using those or someone else’s gun with anything but a straight stock is when I realise that I actually slide my hand. It is maybe only a quarter of an inch. Never aware that my hand moves with a straight stock but it obviously does. I can’t understand what you mean by “the gun still shaking from the recoil”. I am never aware of any recoil.

I’m guessing by half pistol grip you mean American Style?  I can’t deny that American style is much more ergonomic and better to shoot but the English straight stock is hands down better to look at.  Something about those clean lines.  

[JJsDad]

 An example of what we refer to over here as a semi or half pistol grip.

Edited June 20, 2019 by JJsDad

[guzzicat]

8 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

 An example of what we refer to over here as a semi or half pistol grip.

Or Prince of Wales

[NoBodyImportant]

1 hour ago, guzzicat said:

Or Prince of Wales

Thanks

[JJsDad]

3 hours ago, guzzicat said:

Or Prince of Wales

Sorry, cant agree. A Prince of Wales stock is of similar appearance but is noticeably different in that the curve created by the grip is not so acute and as panoma1 pointed out the curve of the grip invariably ends in a flat. The link below shows a good example:

ttp://www.hallowellco.com/grip.htm

Edited June 20, 2019 by JJsDad
Link added

[panoma1]

As I understand it the semi or half pistol grip is the one illustrated above, the Prince of Wales grip does not have the rounded end!....

[button]

27 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

As I understand it the semi or half pistol grip is the one illustrated above, the Prince of Wales grip does not have the rounded end!....

Correct

[London Best]

At last!  People who know the difference between a POW and a semi pistol grip. I get really tired of seeing (dealers) adverts describing a semi as a POW. They should be made to learn such things before being allowed to deal in guns.

[buze]

On the plus side, we did manage 54 pages before the snobs arrived on their righteous high horses.

[AYA117]

6 minutes ago, buze said:

On the plus side, we did manage 54 pages before the snobs arrived on their righteous high horses.

    Harsh but very funny

[button]

1 hour ago, buze said:

On the plus side, we did manage 54 pages before the snobs arrived on their righteous high horses.

Worthy post - thanks for that 

[Old farrier]

While we’re sort of on the subject

how about sleeved barrels on a English gun 

compared to worn out original 

or is rebarreling  by the makers (if there still in business) the way to go 

anyone got experience of having it done 

i ask as it seems most new guns are built on a sleeving type principle 

your thoughts please 

All the best 

Of

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

how about sleeved barrels on a English gun 

compared to worn out original 

or is rebarreling  by the makers (if there still in business) the way to go

Sleeved barrels are a good solution if well done (but if not struck up properly can make a gun muzzle heavy) - they have a pretty hefty reduction in value compared to a 'well in proof' original set.  A well sleeved gun is a good shooter.  Damascus - when sleeved is usually blacked to match the new tubes.  I have a couple of sleeved hammer guns.

Worn out originals (i.e. in effect out of proof, and not re-provable) have little residual value unless the gun is a big name, superb wood, or some other redeeming features - simply due to the high cost of bringing it back into use.  Remember 'out of proof' guns cannot be sold.

Re-barrelling by the makers (or any other) is very expensive - and once done, the gun would (in my humble view) be only slightly lower value than original in good order.  Unless it is a best gun with a major name, the cost of re-barrelling may well exceed the sale value.  Note that chopper lump replacement barrels are more expensive than dovetail lump usually.

I have a Wm Powell with replacement by the makers barrels done circa 1948 with dovetail lumps.

Just my views.

[London Best]

Nowt wrong with sleeved barrels to restore a gun to be a good shooter. I have owned and used one for nearly twenty years in the past. Unfortunately, “the market” will not pay sensible money for them and a sleever will always fetch less than original or new barrels. On the other hand, this means bargains for anyone wanting a sound gun with a new lease of life.

[Old farrier]

9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Sleeved barrels are a good solution if well done (but if not struck up properly can make a gun muzzle heavy) - they have a pretty hefty reduction in value compared to a 'well in proof' original set.  A well sleeved gun is a good shooter.  Damascus - when sleeved is usually blacked to match the new tubes.  I have a couple of sleeved hammer guns.

Worn out originals (i.e. in effect out of proof, and not re-provable) have little residual value unless the gun is a big name, superb wood, or some other redeeming features - simply due to the high cost of bringing it back into use.  Remember 'out of proof' guns cannot be sold.

Re-barrelling by the makers (or any other) is very expensive - and once done, the gun would (in my humble view) be only slightly lower value than original in good order.  Unless it is a best gun with a major name, the cost of re-barrelling may well exceed the sale value.  Note that chopper lump replacement barrels are more expensive than dovetail lump usually.

I have a Wm Powell with replacement by the makers barrels done circa 1948 with dovetail lumps.

Just my views.

Thanks for your reply and sensible honest answer 

[DUNKS]

I own and shoot a beautiful turn of the century Richard Ellis and Son English hammer gun. The gun is sleeved to the highest order. Balance is perfect and it shoots true.

The fact that the gun is sleeved allows me on my limited budget a chance to own and shoot such a gun. Had it had the original barrels in perfect condition it would have been out of my reach.

I also have a Daintith. again English and around the same date which has stunning woodwork and engraving. Also has cosmetically beautiful Damascus barrels which are terrible in the bores. Tight on the face but obviously out of proof. I would love to have it sleeved but the the gun is not worth the expense and half it's beauty is its useless barrels.

.

Edited June 20, 2019 by DUNKS

[Jaymo]

Took my old girl out at the weekend on clays, only dropped a few so there is life in an 1891 ( circa) ‘Sleeved’ Charles Lancaster....

[panoma1]

43 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

While we’re sort of on the subject

how about sleeved barrels on a English gun 

compared to worn out original 

or is rebarreling  by the makers (if there still in business) the way to go 

anyone got experience of having it done 

i ask as it seems most new guns are built on a sleeving type principle 

your thoughts please 

All the best 

Of

Most O/U guns (and SBS for that matter) of foreign manufacture have barrels assembled on a mono bloc system, i.e. the tubes and breech are made separately and then joined together....sort of like sleeving!.....no one seems to have a problem buying new guns with monobloc barrels, but a gun with sleeved barrels is not desirable and that is reflected in the price!

Sleeving was invented in the 1960's by a guy named Chris Ashworth who lived in Severn Stoke in Worcestershire, I believe he was the proprietor of the local garage?........

There is nothing wrong with a gun with properly sleeved barrels......as a shooter....it is the fact that it is not original, that negatively affects the price!

I had a G E Lewis double bar lock hammer gun sleeved in the 1970's by Roland Watson in the Birmingham gun trade, very nice gun, but had to part with it trying to keep the wolf from the door!...often wonder where it is now!