UNBELIEVABLE WHAT THE HELL ?

[ELIMINATOR]

1 hour ago, bostonmick said:

So does this mean that if you have a relative who has been convicted of a crime involving violence you will lose your guns. It seems that even if they have a different address the police still consider this enough reason to refuse/revoke. The police know we have no protection as basc are as much use as a ashtray on a motorbike. 

Basically yes mate, or even a none relative, just a friend who is known to police is enough to take your guns if they want too.

[ELIMINATOR]

13 hours ago, robbiep said:

I disagree.

No police officers that I know have any issue at all with the general public having guns - some of them shoot as a hobby themselves, which they'd have to give up if that was true. I've introduced 2 police officers that I've met socially to clay shooting, one of whom now has his own SGC.

In this case, the son has been found guilty of carrying an offensive weapon. In a later incident, he stopped his motorbike to have a public slanging match with an ex (no reason at the time to stop at all), for which he was again charged (and I assume convicted).

The son also uses drugs - the reason for such use is irrelevant as far as the police are concerned. He uses drugs, which means he buys drugs from a dealer (who most likely sells other 'harder' drugs too), and probably associates with other users.

I note that the firearms were taken by the police in August 2017. The son is now 23 years old, so was 22 at that time, and these cases of alleged violence, carrying an offensive weapon, drug dealing (though not substantiated) had been going on for at least 2 years. So going back to when the son was at most 20 years of age - if not before.

Whilst I sympathise with the OP's plight, the police are faced with a close family member who appears to have very poor judgement, a propensity to violence and aggression, drug use and association with drug users or dealers.

I'm not sure what other steps they could reasonably be expected to take.

I was a member of a gun club and rented a gun safe, and I told the police I would be happy to agree to store all my guns there and not take them out of the club until they were happy that my son didn't live with me, then I could return to overland shooting once they where satisfied. I put this to the police even before they asked me to surrender my licence, all they said was they would put it to the ACC (What ever that is)

So why was this option not agreed upon, as there is no fear of anyone getting to my guns

[robbiep]

24 minutes ago, ELIMINATOR said:

I was a member of a gun club and rented a gun safe, and I told the police I would be happy to agree to store all my guns there and not take them out of the club until they were happy that my son didn't live with me, then I could return to overland shooting once they where satisfied. I put this to the police even before they asked me to surrender my licence, all they said was they would put it to the ACC (What ever that is)

So why was this option not agreed upon, as there is no fear of anyone getting to my guns

Because a year ago, your son was still involved in ...shall we say a more 'dubious' side of society. The police saw that, and if they think there is a risk that he might come under pressure from the people he associates with (drug dealer debt, for example), then you might in turn come under pressure. Guns held elsewhere or not, there is judged to be a risk.

The police have dropped the ball on a number of occasions in the past few years where they really should have revoked, but failed to do so. They have been very publicly slammed for those failings.  As a result they now err on the side of caution.

36 minutes ago, ELIMINATOR said:

just a friend who is known to police is enough to take your guns if they want too

That comment just looks like sour grapes. 

I suggest that you might want to look a lot closer than the police if you want to assign blame. 'Fruit of your loins' and all that ...

[stuartyboy]

I sympathise with the op if all is what has been said is true and unbiased. It does seem unfair.

But, make no mistake. The police do not want guns in civilian hands. Why would they? It offers no benefit to them, they don't care if you can shoot a target or a rabbit. They would rather you take up golf. If anything goes wrong, they will get slated rightly or wrongly. Its a risk they have to take but they would rather not have to. That's why all shooters need to be squeaky clean and to be seen to be squeaky clean. Any doubt and the Police will protect themselves by revoking. Their management will support them, the general public will likely too.

I should say, when I refer to the police, I'm referring to higher level of management. Not the coppers on the street. Some of whom may shoot, likely the majority won't. Some will be very anti tho have to be seen to be impartial.

[ELIMINATOR]

2 hours ago, robbiep said:

 

That comment just looks like sour grapes. 

I suggest that you might want to look a lot closer than the police if you want to assign blame. 'Fruit of your loins' and all that ...

It is a bit of sour grapes I'm afraid, 30 years with guns, never had an issue, jumped through all the hoops they asked me too, and yes I put some of the blame on my son, of course I do, but still no reason to stop me having my guns in a club for safe keeping and only use in the club, and you say "if I was put under pressure" then, the police could say that to every single shooter in the country "what if you were put under pressure?"
I still could not take them out of the club, so that's not a valid reason.

[Gordon R]

Whilst I sympathise with the OP (if we have all the facts), but yet again, I feel we are being drip fed the whole story.

The OP's son is a risk - he doesn't seem able to keep out of trouble, despite his recent improvement. The club were happy for him to store guns there, but have retracted the offer. Clearly there is far more than we are party to. We are asked to judge, without knowing what the gun club know. It isn't possible.

McAvoys might be over-stocked, but is every other gun dealer in the area in the same situation? Faced with losing the guns for nothing, I would have phoned around.

I cannot agree with the comments about the Police wanting guns out of public hands. A friend had a domestic situation a few years ago and GMP went out of their way to be fair to my friend. He still has his licence and that is entirely due to the intelligent and sympathetic way GMP dealt with his case.

[panoma1]

Would anyone not have breakdown cover for their car? Why then do people who own guns/shoot not join the likes of BASC? Surely for the peace of mind the insurance gives, it is foolish not too!

BASC are by no means perfect but like vehicle breakdown cover, if you only need BASC insurance once.......it is worthwhile.

Then you would not be on here bemoaning your apparant bad treatment......you would be on to BASC to represent you!

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by panoma1

[Dave-G]

20 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Would anyone not have breakdown cover for their car? Why then do people who own guns/shoot not join the likes of BASC? Surely for the peace of mind the insurance gives, it is foolish not too!

BASC are by no means perfect but like vehicle breakdown cover, if you only need BASC insurance once.......it is worthwhile.

Then you would not be on here bemoaning your apparant bad treatment......you would be on to BASC to represent you!

 

I wonder if it might have gone differently when the OP said he got asked if he was in the BASC if he was a member. 

[panoma1]

4 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

I wonder if it might have gone differently when the OP said he got asked if he was in the BASC if he was a member. 

Well if the police were on shaky ground in revoking the OP's certificate, and they were aware BASC's insurance covered the applicant (member) for legal cover against revocation.......it would certainly be a consideration!

[ELIMINATOR]

4 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Whilst I sympathise with the OP (if we have all the facts), but yet again, I feel we are being drip fed the whole story.

The OP's son is a risk - he doesn't seem able to keep out of trouble, despite his recent improvement. The club were happy for him to store guns there, but have retracted the offer. Clearly there is far more than we are party to. We are asked to judge, without knowing what the gun club know. It isn't possible.

McAvoys might be over-stocked, but is every other gun dealer in the area in the same situation? Faced with losing the guns for nothing, I would have phoned around.

I cannot agree with the comments about the Police wanting guns out of public hands. A friend had a domestic situation a few years ago and GMP went out of their way to be fair to my friend. He still has his licence and that is entirely due to the intelligent and sympathetic way GMP dealt with his case.

Hi Gordon, you are not being drip fed anything, I am just sharing my story to warn others, the club was aware of my situation and 10 days ago I informed them of the revoke too and they said I could donate my 1022 for indoor use and I could carry on shooting with it in the club, it's was only 10 days after they agreed to do this they said they didn't want me as a member, they will not give me a reason.

I did phone another gun shop today outside of Merseyside and they have agreed to take all my guns and sell them for me, I can sell all my reloading equipment myself according to the police.
oh and I did not ask anyone to judge anything, I am just sharing my story so others can be aware of how easy if it to lose a licence even if you personally have not done a thing wrong.

[ELIMINATOR]

3 hours ago, panoma1 said:

Would anyone not have breakdown cover for their car? Why then do people who own guns/shoot not join the likes of BASC? Surely for the peace of mind the insurance gives, it is foolish not too!

BASC are by no means perfect but like vehicle breakdown cover, if you only need BASC insurance once.......it is worthwhile.

Then you would not be on here bemoaning your apparant bad treatment......you would be on to BASC to represent you!

 

I have been told I should still join and ask them to support me on an appeal, but I see that as a bit cheeky, only joining for that, so this time I am going to sell all my guns, all my reloading gear, and my callers, camo and everything I own to do with firearms, I will downgrade to air rifles just to keep my hand in, but I will be applying again in a year or two.

(Where is it legal to advertise reloading gear ? ) Don't think ebay or gumtree allow

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

Where is it legal to advertise reloading gear

If you intend coming back into shooting at a later date I would keep the reloading gear, you won't get what you paid for it, & in 2yrs it'll cost £££ to get set up again.

[Gordon R]

Quote

oh and I did not ask anyone to judge anything,

Anyone who posts on a public forum is inviting  judgement / comment.

[motty]

2 hours ago, ELIMINATOR said:

I have been told I should still join and ask them to support me on an appeal, but I see that as a bit cheeky, only joining for that, so this time I am going to sell all my guns, all my reloading gear, and my callers, camo and everything I own to do with firearms, I will downgrade to air rifles just to keep my hand in, but I will be applying again in a year or two.

(Where is it legal to advertise reloading gear ? ) Don't think ebay or gumtree allow

You can sell reloading gear on eBay.

[robbiep]

15 hours ago, ELIMINATOR said:

I have been told I should still join and ask them to support me on an appeal, but I see that as a bit cheeky, only joining for that, so this time I am going to sell all my guns, all my reloading gear, and my callers, camo and everything I own to do with firearms, I will downgrade to air rifles just to keep my hand in, but I will be applying again in a year or two.

(Where is it legal to advertise reloading gear ? ) Don't think ebay or gumtree allow

Guntrader. Or even on here, I'd imagine, in the 'other sales' section.

However, if you've got primers then you may well want to hand those in to the police. They are a restricted item - though I'm not sure if you legally need a certificate to possess, or just to purchase.

[Big Mat]

On 03/08/2018 at 13:21, ELIMINATOR said:

Yes, I have spoken to an RFD today and he has told me that in Merseyside, the police have revoked 2 RFD's and revoked many many general FAC holders, so much that all the local RFD's have so much stock that prices have fallen over the last year, and that this RFD I was speaking to said he even sold a double barrel 12g last week for only £25.
For some reason Merseyside police seem to be taking guns off everyone without a truly valid reason.

Your hand can hurt when you have complications with diabetes, neuropathy and carpel tunnel syndrome, this affects the nerves in your fingers and hands and can go right back to your shoulders, I have carpel tunnel myself, and it's like pins and needles 24hours a day and the pain wakes you up at night.

I don't think so as my son now works will me every day. He is now in a stable relationship and have even given up smoking so I can see a positive change in him.

Simple reason here as to why you can't get it back, he may not he living with you but you see him every day. That is their issue. Unless you over come that, then they won't budge

[bruno22rf]

Please don't take this the wrong way ELIMINATOR but if your son is type 1 and was smoking then he needed a good talking to - you are dead right about the hands though - I had type1 for 30 years and several operations on my hands and nobody ever told me it was linked to diabetes  - even now, several years after having type1 I am suffering from carpel tunnel.....bloomin hurts at times .

[ELIMINATOR]

11 hours ago, Big Mat said:

Simple reason here as to why you can't get it back, he may not he living with you but you see him every day. That is their issue. Unless you over come that, then they won't budge

That's funny, there is a guy in the gun club his son had even bigger issues with the police and lives with him, so he had his licence revoked, yet he now helps out in the gun club and has his own guns (registered to the club of course) and he is still allowed to shoot, she why the hell ain't I allowed ?

[ELIMINATOR]

10 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

Please don't take this the wrong way ELIMINATOR but if your son is type 1 and was smoking then he needed a good talking to - you are dead right about the hands though - I had type1 for 30 years and several operations on my hands and nobody ever told me it was linked to diabetes  - even now, several years after having type1 I am suffering from carpel tunnel.....bloomin hurts at times .

Mine hurts 24hrs a day, I have only had diabetes 10 years, and my son was diagnosed 4 days after me, I am waiting for a date for the operation now, and my son is in agony pains in both hands up to his shoulders, this might be severe neuropathy, he is waiting to be sent for tests.
Anyway, I have decided to sell up and invest in some air rifle stuff, so 2 cabs for sale and reloading gear, I have put them on facebook marketplace as "Gun Safe" at £75 each, reloading gear will be going on soon, press, and dies, scales, powder loader, empty cartridges, cleaner, everything needed for .223 and .243 (no primers though im afraid) you need a licence to buy them and I have not seen mine for a year lol

[Whitester]

To revoke someone’s license because their son who didn’t live with them was convicted of some minor offences seems harsh to me.

personaly I would feel hard done by and would be gutted about loosing my ticket and probably my permissions.

 

i don’t know the ins and outs but I think the op is taking it very well considering.

 

hope it gets sorted soon?

[scarecrow243]

BASC  would not help me when i was having bother with feo  they said i was adding arms and legs to the story  so i told basc to stuff their help i sorted it myself

[Walker570]

In my view even rubbing shoulders with any person or persons up to no good whether family or just friends will put a 'marker' on you. Parted company a year ago when a drug raid  was done on persons and buildings on a farm I used to shoot. Imediately ceased any contact there as I am sure my association would be noted .... it certainly would have been in my time as Mr Plod.

As said earlier, a number of incidents took place where the actions of the police before the incidents failed ... Dunblane as prime example. 

[Rewulf]

The HO guidelines are quite clear, any association with the less savoury elements of society, whether they be family or friends, will be looked upon during application or renewal unfavourably.
Thats if they know about it.
Im sure many people on here know some one 'dodgy' ?
But are not so inclined to mention it during an FEO interview, 'Oh by the way, Im good friends with shotgun Dave the notorious bank robber' ? 

[Graham M]

5 years ago I was having to go to the police station on a regular basis to sort out my 14 year old grandson. He wouldn't let his mother (spit) anywhere near because she was of no help whatsoever and I was assigned the role as the "Appropriate adult". She  and my son had split up years before but my grandson always came over to see me (my son went to live in the USA).

After the last bout with my grandson I told him that this was the last time, and told him not to come over to the house anymore because he was causing me a lot of grief and it could affect my firearms certificate. Broke my heart but I felt it was the only way to try and get though to him. 

Now he is 19 and the most loving lad you could want. No more trouble and he keeps himself to himself. 

You say that he works with you every day.......................which is probably why the police are taking a hard line, because you are associating with him all the time. How do they know he isn't around your house every day as well.???

[stuartyboy]

Sounds unfair what you're going through. 

You've basically got 2 choices. 

1. Fight the decision of the Police at great expense and grief. 

2. Forget about shooting cartridge guns at the moment and concentrate in helping your son to screw the heid. Then if and when your son is back on an even keel, think about applying for licenses again.

I know what I would be concentrating on but I'm maybe seeing it from a simplistic view point. 

All the best anyway