UNBELIEVABLE WHAT THE HELL ?

[ELIMINATOR]

Be Careful guys, let my story be a word of warning...

 

I original got a shotgun cert when I was in my 20's and I'm now 48, in the last 10 years I also got firearms mainly for overland, as I was a pest controller I had my FAC opened after only 3 months, I have been a regular shooter ever since.

The bad news is I have a 23 year old son !

My son was living in a flat in a rough area, he was unemployed due to complications with type 1 diabetes, one night while going to the local petrol for bread and milk, he was jumped and beaten up by a gang of men and had all his money stolen.

A few weeks later, he was waiting for his money to go into the bank at midnight and he needed to buy lucozade and chocolate as his blood sugars where low, so the only thing he could do is go to the petrol station and use the cash machine, but a he was recently mugged there, he was afraid so stupidly he took as baseball bat with him to scare off any potential muggers. Nothing happened and he bought is stuff from the garage, but on the way home he was stopped by police as a random check as it was late, they found the bat under his coat and he was arrested and prosecuted for carrying an offensive weapon.

I had the usual checks done as he was related to me and all was in order and that was that.

then a couple of years went by and my son got involved with a woman his own age, but turn out she had Bi Polar and she used to beat him up, they where both forever phoning the police on each other during an argument, (too much Jeremy Kyle if you ask me), they eventually split up and my son started dating one of his ex girlfriends friends, the ex found out and phoned the police and said he was a drug dealer and a motorbike thief. Next thing is his door gets kicked in at 4am by police while he was in bed. they ripped the flat apart and left it in a hell of a mess. (my son is not a drug dealer by the way, but has been known to smoke cannabis when his hands are in pain due to the diabetes.

The next day he saw his ex girlfriend walking down the road, (and had since found out from mutual friends that it was her that called the police and sent them to his flat) He pulled over on his motorbike and called he a "******* Sl*g" and rode off. She then phoned the police and reported him and the local chippy had CCTV of him pulling over and saying something to her, so he got arrested and charged for swearing in a public place.

So in August 2017 he and his partner have a big row and split up, both of them phone the police on each other and say he/she threatened to do this, blah blah blah...

I get the phone call the next day from firearms asking if my son was living with me, I said no he has had his own flat for years. They inform me that he and his girlfriend had both phoned the police on each other the night before and as usual they have to contact me to check everything is ok and my firearms are safe.

The firearms officer asked could he come and check my firearms and I said yes, so an hour later he arrived, but he wanted me to surrender my firearms for a week or two till things with my son and his girlfriend had calmed down, I was going on holiday the following week so I agreed, so we agreed the police would look after my firearms for 3 weeks till I returned.

When I returned, I contacted to police to arrange to have my guns back, but I was told that the firearms manager would have to approve it first. I tried contacting them again after a few weeks of hearing nothing back, then it turned into  months, then 6 months had passed, my phone calls and messages to the firearms department where being ignored. I eventually got the firearms manageress on the phone one day and I asked why it was taking so long for my firearms to be returned and she said, they are trying to establish where my son was living, I said why didn't you ask me that 6 months ago, and I gave her his address and contact details, another month passed and nothing, then another month, eventually I got though on the phone again and she told my that she wanted me to prove my son didn't live at my address, I said " how can i prove he does not live at my address ?", I have her his contact details, I gave her his registration number off his van so she could do a check, she even spoke to my son and arranged to have a female police officer meet him the next morning at his home, but she never turned up. Eventually after 11 months of not having my firearms back, and the past few months she had ignored all my calls and messages on the answer machine asking for an update, I sent an email of complaint to the Chief of Police and also carbon copied the same email to my local MP, saying how this has dragged on and on and its only an issue over my storage and my son does not even have a key to my house and he does not even live in the same County as me and I was asking if someone could step in and resolve this situation for me.

In the meantime, I thought of a good solution myself, I went to my local gun club and saw all the old faces, all of whom where chatting to me and said it was good to see me back, and I told them the story of what is going on, and said I wanted to re join and also hire a gun cabinet for 12 months, so at least I could get target practice and get to clean and service my guns, they agreed and let me join the club and hired me a cabinet.

I phoned firearms and left a message on the machine saying I was now a member of the gun club again and had hired a gun cabinet, so I would keep all my guns there for club use only, and I would not do any overland until she was happy my son didn't live with me.

a week after I sent the email, I got a phone call from the firearms manageress asking could I meed with her at police headquarters, so I booked a day off work and went to the meeting, thinking problem solved and I would collect my guns and take them to the club, but when I got there, I was taken in to a big conference room and 2 other women joined us, they basically said they are not convinced that my son did not live at my address and therefore did not want to return my guns to me, they then went on to say they I had 2 options. Option 1 I could voluntary surrender my licence permanently or 2 they would take if off me.

I said what about option 3, my guns go to the gun club and I only use them on the target range ?

They looked at each other and said something along the lines of they will put it to the ACC, but I could tell by the way they spoke and their attitudes that they where not even going to bother as that was not an option, they also said that my complaint email had been passed to them and this was what the meeting was for, and they said they would be in touch within a week.

a few days later I got a phone call from a firearms officer asking could he come to my house to discuss my firearms, I said yes and he arrived within an hour. When he arrived he sat down and said "it's not good news i'm afraid", and he produced a letter saying, my firearms and shotgun licences had been revoked and I must hand over all my ammunition, so I had to hand over all my ammo and counted it all and was given a receipt.

I was told I can appeal, but only through a solicitor through the courts, and win, lose or draw, I have to pay all the costs for my solicitor, the courts, the police and the police solicitors. 

I was totally gobsmacked, I can't believe what has just happened, all the years of getting shooting permissions and the amount of money I have spend on my guns and ammo, to have the lot taken away, and they would not even give me a reason.  

I am a self employed sub contractor, so no way on earth can I afford a solicitor, I don't do drugs, I don't even drink, I have never been arrested in my life

I am a genuine honest guy and do no wrong, so why the hell are the police doing this to me, I am being victimized by the police who are supposed to be there to help us.

Then to top it off, I spoke to the gun club to see if they could get my guns from the police and sell them for me, they even said I could donate one of them to the club and I could still use it on the range, so I agreed. but the chairman told me on the phone he was away for 10 days and he would arrange for collection from the police in 10 days.

(The Police have given me only 21 days to find someone to take my guns)Tonight (the 10th Day) the chairman of the gun club text me and said, the committee have said they no longer want me in the club and they cannot take my guns, so they will refund my membership and the money for the cabinet, when I asked what was the reason for this , he said he cannot discuss it.

So on my last text to him, I asked was the club under pressure from the police as I made a complaint to the police chief ( He didn't reply )

So be careful if this can happen to me, then it can happen to anyone.

And I even told the police I would contact McAvoys gun shop and ask them to sell my guns for me, and when I phoned McAvoys in Wigan, they said " Sorry we don't have enough display space for our own guns, so we don't want to buy them and we can't sell them for you"

 

[PPP]

Guessing that you aren’t a member of a shooting organisation, is it worth speaking to your home insurance legal fees expense insurance company?

[ELIMINATOR]

Nope, not a member, Police asked when he took my ammo was i a member of the BASC, but I said no.

I don't have a solicitor or anything like that.

[Ultrastu]

That whole story makes me shake my head in disbelief  and anger .

I really feel your pain 

[walshie]

Not believing your son doesn't live with seems a very flimsy reason to revoke. And he doesn't exactly sound like criminal of the year if he did.

I think you need to go above the licensing people who are risk averse process monkeys and get some proper answers from the most senior officer possible. Don't accept no for an answer.

[Ultrastu]

I think personally id get a lawer .

[Farmboy91]

Lost for words. 

About 4 years ago my ex and mother of my child assaulted me, then called the police giving a made up version of events. Luckily CPS saw sense and it was her who went to court on an assault charge and was found guilty, one of the first things the feo said to me when he came round to assess for my section 2 was ' how are things with your ex'. 

Even though I'd done nothing wrong and she'd been found guilty I'm still under scrutiny. 

The way they deal with things of this nature is beyond belief sometimes. 

Seriously hope you can get this sorted. 

 

[pegasus bridge]

I feel your anguish, but I guess your sons unlucky streak with women / health / the law has rung too many alarm bells- I presume they feel the slightest risk of him getting access to them would not be worth taking ?

[oowee]

Crikey. I am lost for words. What a nightmare all round. It sounds like a lawyer is your only way forward. 

[hod]

35 minutes ago, pegasus bridge said:

I feel your anguish, but I guess your sons unlucky streak with women / health / the law has rung too many alarm bells- I presume they feel the slightest risk of him getting access to them would not be worth taking ?

Maybe this, or (as he doesn’t stay with you) is there more going on too that you wouldn’t know about?

 

[jam1e]

The Police hate members of the public having "guns". They'll do anything to stop the practice. And what seems like minor issues to you regarding your son. THEY see as "Domestic violence, mixing with firearms/shotguns". And they'll mold your situation to fit their own ends.

Really sorry you've fallen foul to such ******....

[robbiep]

3 minutes ago, jam1e said:

The Police hate members of the public having "guns". They'll do anything to stop the practice. And what seems like minor issues to you regarding your son. THEY see as "Domestic violence, mixing with firearms/shotguns". And they'll mold your situation to fit their own ends.

Really sorry you've fallen foul to such ******....

I disagree.

No police officers that I know have any issue at all with the general public having guns - some of them shoot as a hobby themselves, which they'd have to give up if that was true. I've introduced 2 police officers that I've met socially to clay shooting, one of whom now has his own SGC.

In this case, the son has been found guilty of carrying an offensive weapon. In a later incident, he stopped his motorbike to have a public slanging match with an ex (no reason at the time to stop at all), for which he was again charged (and I assume convicted).

The son also uses drugs - the reason for such use is irrelevant as far as the police are concerned. He uses drugs, which means he buys drugs from a dealer (who most likely sells other 'harder' drugs too), and probably associates with other users.

I note that the firearms were taken by the police in August 2017. The son is now 23 years old, so was 22 at that time, and these cases of alleged violence, carrying an offensive weapon, drug dealing (though not substantiated) had been going on for at least 2 years. So going back to when the son was at most 20 years of age - if not before.

Whilst I sympathise with the OP's plight, the police are faced with a close family member who appears to have very poor judgement, a propensity to violence and aggression, drug use and association with drug users or dealers.

I'm not sure what other steps they could reasonably be expected to take.

[bruno22rf]

Don't get why you would carry a Baseball Bat just because you've been attacked on one isolated incident - asking for trouble + why would Diabetes make your hands hurt? Just asking as there must be more to this - the Police have no right to remove your property without a good reason, the onus should be on them to indicate why they think that your son lives with you.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

5 hours ago, robbiep said:

I disagree.

No police officers that I know have any issue at all with the general public having guns - some of them shoot as a hobby themselves, which they'd have to give up if that was true. I've introduced 2 police officers that I've met socially to clay shooting, one of whom now has his own SGC.

In this case, the son has been found guilty of carrying an offensive weapon. In a later incident, he stopped his motorbike to have a public slanging match with an ex (no reason at the time to stop at all), for which he was again charged (and I assume convicted).

The son also uses drugs - the reason for such use is irrelevant as far as the police are concerned. He uses drugs, which means he buys drugs from a dealer (who most likely sells other 'harder' drugs too), and probably associates with other users.

I note that the firearms were taken by the police in August 2017. The son is now 23 years old, so was 22 at that time, and these cases of alleged violence, carrying an offensive weapon, drug dealing (though not substantiated) had been going on for at least 2 years. So going back to when the son was at most 20 years of age - if not before.

Whilst I sympathise with the OP's plight, the police are faced with a close family member who appears to have very poor judgement, a propensity to violence and aggression, drug use and association with drug users or dealers.

I'm not sure what other steps they could reasonably be expected to take.

I think that sums it all up very well.

[jam1e]

7 hours ago, robbiep said:

I disagree.

No police officers that I know have any issue at all with the general public having guns - some of them shoot as a hobby themselves, which they'd have to give up if that was true. I've introduced 2 police officers that I've met socially to clay shooting, one of whom now has his own SGC.

In this case, the son has been found guilty of carrying an offensive weapon. In a later incident, he stopped his motorbike to have a public slanging match with an ex (no reason at the time to stop at all), for which he was again charged (and I assume convicted).

The son also uses drugs - the reason for such use is irrelevant as far as the police are concerned. He uses drugs, which means he buys drugs from a dealer (who most likely sells other 'harder' drugs too), and probably associates with other users.

I note that the firearms were taken by the police in August 2017. The son is now 23 years old, so was 22 at that time, and these cases of alleged violence, carrying an offensive weapon, drug dealing (though not substantiated) had been going on for at least 2 years. So going back to when the son was at most 20 years of age - if not before.

Whilst I sympathise with the OP's plight, the police are faced with a close family member who appears to have very poor judgement, a propensity to violence and aggression, drug use and association with drug users or dealers.

I'm not sure what other steps they could reasonably be expected to take.

I should have been more clear. I didn't mean the average operational officer. It was more the management at higher level. I'm also aware of some officers who also shoot in one form or another, and have close friends who are still serving. My info is based on me being a Police myself for a long time, and seeing what goes on behind the scenes. Obviously I can of cause only speak for the Force i was in though. 

Just to add, i agree with all your observations above, and don't entirely disagree with the Police decision to revoke. Albeit the way they did it was unfortunately as bad as some other Police Force's.....

Edited August 3, 2018 by jam1e

[Scully]

10 hours ago, robbiep said:

I disagree.

No police officers that I know have any issue at all with the general public having guns - some of them shoot as a hobby themselves, which they'd have to give up if that was true. I've introduced 2 police officers that I've met socially to clay shooting, one of whom now has his own SGC.

In this case, the son has been found guilty of carrying an offensive weapon. In a later incident, he stopped his motorbike to have a public slanging match with an ex (no reason at the time to stop at all), for which he was again charged (and I assume convicted).

The son also uses drugs - the reason for such use is irrelevant as far as the police are concerned. He uses drugs, which means he buys drugs from a dealer (who most likely sells other 'harder' drugs too), and probably associates with other users.

I note that the firearms were taken by the police in August 2017. The son is now 23 years old, so was 22 at that time, and these cases of alleged violence, carrying an offensive weapon, drug dealing (though not substantiated) had been going on for at least 2 years. So going back to when the son was at most 20 years of age - if not before.

Whilst I sympathise with the OP's plight, the police are faced with a close family member who appears to have very poor judgement, a propensity to violence and aggression, drug use and association with drug users or dealers.

I'm not sure what other steps they could reasonably be expected to take.

This. The licensing authority obviously find themselves between a rock and a hard place....there's only going to be one resolution.

There again, looking at it form another perspective, if the OP's associations are considered to be too much of a risk, why have they given him time to dispose of his own guns? It would appear they may not be too sure of their authority to revoke. Just a thought. 

[bostonmick]

So does this mean that if you have a relative who has been convicted of a crime involving violence you will lose your guns. It seems that even if they have a different address the police still consider this enough reason to refuse/revoke. The police know we have no protection as basc are as much use as a ashtray on a motorbike. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

This. The licensing authority obviously find themselves between a rock and a hard place....there's only going to be one resolution.

There again, looking at it form another perspective, if the OP's associations are considered to be too much of a risk, why have they given him time to dispose of his own guns? It would appear they may not be too sure of their authority to revoke. Just a thought. 

Nail on the head.
They will ALWAYS err on the side of caution.
There is a member on here who joined one of my clubs, I helped him through his application, a good sensible, safe lad, never been in trouble in his life, young family, good job ect.
Should be no issue right ?
He has a brother, who he hasnt seen in years, small time drug dealer, police record.

Application refused on the grounds of possible contact with said brother, who was actually on remand at the time.
To cut  long story short, he waited , wrote some letters, was given SEC 1 and 2 , but no home gun storage, wait another year, more letters , moved house further from brothers 'area of influence' and now has full access and home storage.

My advice to the OP.
Get an RFD to store your guns, this will cost you, but better than just leaving them in police storage/crusher.

Wait! 
Join BASC or whatever has decent legal rep.
Join a sec 1 club, maybe not the same club, travel if necessary, try and keep your permissions, use an air rifle.
Let the dust settle some more.
Join a clay club, one with club guns ,keep shooting !

Give it a year ,maybe 2, then re apply with a pile of evidence of your continued shooting and pest control interest , a bit of BASC rep, and with evidence of your sons address (council tax utilities ect ) 
It would be a good idea if your son can keep his nose clean too.

Some of us have to jump through hoops to acquire and keep our sport, I did.
Its whether you consider it worth it ?
Good luck.

6 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

So does this mean that if you have a relative who has been convicted of a crime involving violence you will lose your guns. It seems that even if they have a different address the police still consider this enough reason to refuse/revoke. The police know we have no protection as basc are as much use as a ashtray on a motorbike. 

It doesnt have to be violence, association with criminals is grounds for refusal/revocation.
Plainly stated in the HO guidelines. 

[bostonmick]

28 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

It doesnt have to be violence, association with criminals is grounds for refusal/revocation.
Plainly stated in the HO guidelines. 

The point is if you have a famy member who does not live with you and has no access to your home or cabinet is this now a reason to refuse. If so I doubt there will be many certificates out there before long. We have got to this stage as the powers that be have never been challenged before. 

[panoma1]

Several phrases come to mind....."am I my brothers (sons) keeper"?....."sins of the father (in this case son!)"........"and you can choose your friends but you can't choose your family"

Whatever we think of BASC, it is sensible to be in! The OP would have at least stood a chance of getting advice and representation in court, free of charge!

[HW95J]

I'd seek legal intervention here, if not through BASC through someone else.

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

The point is if you have a famy member who does not live with you and has no access to your home or cabinet is this now a reason to refuse. If so I doubt there will be many certificates out there before long. We have got to this stage as the powers that be have never been challenged before. 

Given you an example of just such a thing above, so the answer is yes.
There have been plenty of examples posted on here of similar things, and like I say ,clearly stated in HO guidelines.

13 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Several phrases come to mind....."am I my brothers (sons) keeper"?....."sins of the father (in this case son!)"........"and you can choose your friends but you can't choose your family"

Whatever we think of BASC, it is sensible to be in! The OP would have at least stood a chance of getting advice and representation in court, free of charge!

In the case of firearms licencing , yes, yes and yes unfortunately.
Thankfully, they dont know EVERYTHING, only what is recorded, and blatently obvious when a search is done.
So the 6 degrees of separation doesnt preclude everyone from firearms ownership ?

13 minutes ago, HW95J said:

I'd seek legal intervention here, if not through BASC through someone else.

At this point in time, I dont believe that is cost effective or wise.
Some advise yes, but the time for direct action has passed, wait it out , and keep shooting whatever you can.
Prepare the case for re application in a year or 2 to stand any chance of success.

[ELIMINATOR]

14 hours ago, pegasus bridge said:

I feel your anguish, but I guess your sons unlucky streak with women / health / the law has rung too many alarm bells- I presume they feel the slightest risk of him getting access to them would not be worth taking ?

The thing is, I am a full member of a shooting club and I have storage there, I even offered to agree that my guns must stay at the club for target only, so there is no way anyone could get to my guns, why they have rejected that I do not know and they won't give me a reason.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

And just to add one final comment from me;

We rarely ever get the whole story in the vast majority of these types of post that turn up on PW every now and then. A legal challenge would, as Rewulf states be expensive and long winded.

[ELIMINATOR]

13 hours ago, jam1e said:

The Police hate members of the public having "guns". They'll do anything to stop the practice. And what seems like minor issues to you regarding your son. THEY see as "Domestic violence, mixing with firearms/shotguns". And they'll mold your situation to fit their own ends.

Really sorry you've fallen foul to such ******....

Yes, I have spoken to an RFD today and he has told me that in Merseyside, the police have revoked 2 RFD's and revoked many many general FAC holders, so much that all the local RFD's have so much stock that prices have fallen over the last year, and that this RFD I was speaking to said he even sold a double barrel 12g last week for only £25.
For some reason Merseyside police seem to be taking guns off everyone without a truly valid reason.

12 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

Don't get why you would carry a Baseball Bat just because you've been attacked on one isolated incident - asking for trouble + why would Diabetes make your hands hurt? Just asking as there must be more to this - the Police have no right to remove your property without a good reason, the onus should be on them to indicate why they think that your son lives with you.

Your hand can hurt when you have complications with diabetes, neuropathy and carpel tunnel syndrome, this affects the nerves in your fingers and hands and can go right back to your shoulders, I have carpel tunnel myself, and it's like pins and needles 24hours a day and the pain wakes you up at night.

14 hours ago, hod said:

Maybe this, or (as he doesn’t stay with you) is there more going on too that you wouldn’t know about?

 

I don't think so as my son now works will me every day. He is now in a stable relationship and have even given up smoking so I can see a positive change in him.