Effectiveness of fibre wadded cartridges at distance

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Is that Jaymo?

[Walker570]

10 hours ago, Salopian said:

I have been involved with range judging as part of the BASC thing since Dr John Harridine introduced it years ago . Regularly pattern cartridges, and often when walking my dogs I judge a distance and then pace it out , even been known to measure it with a surveyors tape ( Wife thinks I'm mad).

I started this thread because of comments made by an 'expert' , I wanted to seek others views and opinions.

As soon as I get some time I will be patterning 4s & 5s in various loads at distances in excess of 40 yards to confirm to myself at what distance I will have a useable pattern with what cartridge . 

I appreciate any sensible comments and input . I am only interested in fibre or wool wadded cartridge performance as I think it is time to set an example by not polluting the planet anymore than necessary .

For those of you interested in this subject , may I recommend that you get a copy of 'Some Shooting Questions Answered ' by John Lennie published in 2010 by John Roberts Design & Print www johnroberts-designprint.co.uk.

I have lost John Lennie's contact details but feel sure Ivor Beavis at Checkley Game Farm / Shoot near Nantwich will have Mr. Lennie's contact details.

Question answered in full. We are on the same wave length.  Heh!  I use a tape as well. Over almost 70 yrs of shooting at moving targets at various ranges I still believe that human instinct works best. I do believe we can all get a bit anal about the subject and as you know , once you start to think , you'll undoubtably likely miss.

[Perazzishot]

Just picked up on this.

I only shoot extreme pheasants now. Which is defined as over 50 yards.

I can generally shoot between 5:1 and 9:1 depending on wind. Have shot killed cleanly pheasants leaving 90 yard (measured) banks using 42/4s. Usual load is 36/4s and I shoot with teams that all can consistently kill birds at this height. It is harder with fibre and a few manufacturers have added a plastic gas tight seal to help us out. Until you have been to an extreme pheasant shoot you will struggle to understand! Dave Carrie has a video coming out on Saturday of Llechwydygarth where I shot last week where many of these birds were above 100 yds. Other videos would include Whitfield, Mulgrave, Brigands, Molland, Warter Priory, Drumlanrig, Hawnby where you can see these birds being killed cleanly.

You can also check George Digweed smashing a clay at 135 yards on you tube.

Have also witnessed a top clay shot smashing (not chipping) a clay 3 shots for 3 at a measured 95 metres as a rising teal climbing 30 yards and dropping next to the trap, he shot it up, top and on the drop!

 

[Smokersmith]

What does your pattern look like at 90 yards?

[Perazzishot]

I couldn't tell you I don't get caught up in all the science of FPS/Patterns/Chokes. I stick with what is recommended and works for me.

The 95 metre Clay shot at Cumbria Clay Shoot was smashed using a 28/7.5 Kent Velocity.

[motty]

24 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

I couldn't tell you I don't get caught up in all the science of FPS/Patterns/Chokes. I stick with what is recommended and works for me.

The 95 metre Clay shot at Cumbria Clay Shoot was smashed using a 28/7.5 Kent Velocity.

I really think you should get "caught up" in pattern testing, at least. I have no doubt that 4 shot will kill high pheasants. It will also wound, as the pattern is likely to be very thin at 90 yards! I would love to see what a pattern of 36gm 4 looks like at 90 yards.

[panoma1]

90 metres is, I understand, not far short of the length of a football pitch! Next time your close to one, stand in the one goal and look at the other goal........ I would not even lift the gun at that range!

[wymberley]

20 minutes ago, motty said:

I really think you should get "caught up" in pattern testing, at least. I have no doubt that 4 shot will kill high pheasants. It will also wound, as the pattern is likely to be very thin at 90 yards! I would love to see what a pattern of 36gm 4 looks like at 90 yards.

Yep. It makes one wonder what happened to the other eight for every single successful shot on a windy day as they won't all have been missed completely. Perhaps we could combine this thread with the current one regarding the future of our sport.

[Perazzishot]

Motty, shot for over 35 years have seen as many birds being wounded/pricked at 15 yards as at 80 yards, in fact probably more due to the fact to get on an 80 yd bird you need to have an idea of what you are doing to get the shot in the same area as the bird.

Also the pickers up are and can be up to half a mile behind watching what is getting hit and they sweep a huge area coming back to the stand point.

panoma the tape measure was out the full day for the distance challenge. Starting point was 50 metres 3 clays and you moved back 5 metres if you hit one, starting with 3 clays again. Quite a few were broken right up to 85 metres with just 2 guns doing 90 and 1doing 95 metres. In front of a somewhat amazed crowd.

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Perazzishot

[Perazzishot]

Wymberly

Certainly not, you go out with the correct equipment in experienced hands then for this you are barking up the wrong tree.

Maybe the folk shooting pigeons with 21 grams of 7.5s, or geese with 32/6s, going out with no dog and have no education of fieldsports are the ones who will do us most damage.

My biggest concern is the lack of knowledge concerning the laws regarding shooting especially the General Licence. 

 

[wymberley]

19 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Wymberly

Certainly not, you go out with the correct equipment in experienced hands then for this you are barking up the wrong tree.

Maybe the folk shooting pigeons with 21 grams of 7.5s, or geese with 32/6s, going out with no dog and have no education of fieldsports are the ones who will do us most damage.

My biggest concern is the lack of knowledge concerning the laws regarding shooting especially the General Licence. 

 

Your second two points are certainly valid. There we have the most damage and the biggest concern. However, one of the lesser - in the sense of numbers - concerns is the easiest to negate. Or doesn't it matter that potentially wounding - there's no such thing as 'pricking', we're just kidding ourselves - in excessive numbers and simply hoping that the dogs can recover them and is acceptable?

[Hamster]

14 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

Just picked up on this.

I only shoot extreme pheasants now. Which is defined as over 50 yards.

I can generally shoot between 5:1 and 9:1 depending on wind. Have shot killed cleanly pheasants leaving 90 yard (measured) banks using 42/4s. Usual load is 36/4s and I shoot with teams that all can consistently kill birds at this height. It is harder with fibre and a few manufacturers have added a plastic gas tight seal to help us out. Until you have been to an extreme pheasant shoot you will struggle to understand! Dave Carrie has a video coming out on Saturday of Llechwydygarth where I shot last week where many of these birds were above 100 yds. Other videos would include Whitfield, Mulgrave, Brigands, Molland, Warter Priory, Drumlanrig, Hawnby where you can see these birds being killed cleanly.

You can also check George Digweed smashing a clay at 135 yards on you tube.

Have also witnessed a top clay shot smashing (not chipping) a clay 3 shots for 3 at a measured 95 metres as a rising teal climbing 30 yards and dropping next to the trap, he shot it up, top and on the drop!

 

1) GD didn't "smash" anything at 135 yards, he broke it. Smash implies what happens to a well centred clay at 40 odd yards with a bit of choke. It IS possible (though highly unlikely) that TWO pellets instead of just one connects with a clay at silly yardage but what then happens is that a fracture caused by said pellet coupled to the clays spinning centrifugal force helps it tear itself apart, this can look dramatic depending on how many pieces result from the fracture but smash it ain't. 

2) Oh dear. You yourself admit that at best you can only pull down one in five of these super distance birds and that's with fairly obscene loads and shot sizes given that it is supposed to be a days driven pheasant shooting and yet you go on to  misuse the term consistently when referring to others in the team !! There is nothing repeat nothing consistent about bringing down one in five (or nine) birds. In fact it is EXACTLY what one would expect to happen if you understand what scatter guns do and are capable of. 

What is happening is that you and others in the team are throwing large pellets up at distant birds with what can only politely be described as semi random fashion (since I assure you that there is no such thing as a definable or meaningful "pattern") at those kinds of ranges, many of these make contact with these large birds and some just happen to hit vital areas such as neck or brain or heart and thus cause the bird to tumble out of the sky and almost certainly die from the impact alone, one shot in the gut will not necessarily show any signs giving you the impression you've "missed". 

I have shot and killed crows with FAC air guns at 90+ yards and 150 yards with .22 rimfire BUT the difference here is that these are single projectile tools and with a stable platform and LOTS of prior holdover practice from the same area, they can just about pull it off. However, I would never describe them (or me) as routinely capable of doing these kinds of shots. I am afraid you seem to be applying a similarly flawed logic to shotguns and their ballistics.  

5 hours ago, motty said:

I really think you should get "caught up" in pattern testing, at least. I have no doubt that 4 shot will kill high pheasants. It will also wound, as the pattern is likely to be very thin at 90 yards! I would love to see what a pattern of 36gm 4 looks like at 90 yards.

👍

 

5 hours ago, panoma1 said:

90 metres is, I understand, not far short of the length of a football pitch! Next time your close to one, stand in the one goal and look at the other goal........ I would not even lift the gun at that range!

👍

[Perazzishot]

Hamster, I can go out and shoot driven pheasants with my 20 gauge using 28/6 at sub 40 yards or less at less than 2:1 and take no enjoyment from it at all. 

Shoot clays on 100 bird sporting averaging 70-80.

 

Comes down to practice the more you do it the more consistent you get as you will see with a good team of guns on an extreme day, we often have experienced game shooters who look at birds and say they are out of shot, and stand there mesmerised as they start falling out the sky. I average over 50 days per season so get sufficient practice.

 

As for rifle shooting the skill is in setting up your rifle and remaining calm while pulling the trigger, totally different skill and holds no relevance  in shotgun shooting. 

 

Your argument regarding a stray pellet in the gut is as relevant at 30 yards as at 80 yards.

As an ex keeper and shooting since I was 12 I've attended well over 1000 driven shoot days and every day produces pricked, winged injured birds and birds which are not retrieved regardless of height. On extreme days however with shot size in use between 2 and 4 generally a bird that is hit generally suffers pretty significant shock and trauma causing it to generally collapse very quickly. Unlike a 21g 7'5 which I have seen used on pheasant shoots over the years because shooters are either recoil sensitive, children, ladies or people are wanting a new type of challenge.

Same as a days pigeon decoying happens all the time a plume of feathers and the bird flies on. PS I generally use 32g-36g 5s for all my pigeon shooting as it covers every type of pigeon you will shoot in the hide over decoys!

 

[figgy]

I recently watched a video of a day hosted by Ian Harford team wild and a German guest was saying in Germany you would be frowned upon for shooting pheasants over 35yards as there norm is 25 to 30 and that is just acceptable the sporting distances here starts at. 

As with all things some will want the xtremes

[Hamster]

31 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Hamster, I can go out and shoot driven pheasants with my 20 gauge using 28/6 at sub 40 yards or less at less than 2:1 and take no enjoyment from it at all. 

Shoot clays on 100 bird sporting averaging 70-80.

 

Comes down to practice the more you do it the more consistent you get as you will see with a good team of guns on an extreme day, we often have experienced game shooters who look at birds and say they are out of shot, and stand there mesmerised as they start falling out the sky. I average over 50 days per season so get sufficient practice.

 

As for rifle shooting the skill is in setting up your rifle and remaining calm while pulling the trigger, totally different skill and holds no relevance  in shotgun shooting. 

 

Your argument regarding a stray pellet in the gut is as relevant at 30 yards as at 80 yards.

As an ex keeper and shooting since I was 12 I've attended well over 1000 driven shoot days and every day produces pricked, winged injured birds and birds which are not retrieved regardless of height. On extreme days however with shot size in use between 2 and 4 generally a bird that is hit generally suffers pretty significant shock and trauma causing it to generally collapse very quickly. Unlike a 21g 7'5 which I have seen used on pheasant shoots over the years because shooters are either recoil sensitive, children, ladies or people are wanting a new type of challenge.

Same as a days pigeon decoying happens all the time a plume of feathers and the bird flies on. PS I generally use 32g-36g 5s for all my pigeon shooting as it covers every type of pigeon you will shoot in the hide over decoys!

 

That puts you in B class for English Sporting, not being too unkind I hope but hard to take comments such "the more you practice" seriously. I would fully expect someone proclaiming clean kills at 90 yard pheasants to average close if not well above 90% at mere 30-40 yard clays; especially since there is ZERO complications with pattern density. My own average (now past my prime) is 87% which puts me in AA though I have spent a few years in AAA too and having shot pigeon for over 30 years I tend to know the limitations at least of what 32/35g loads can do. 

I think you'll find that's as relevant as it's going to get. 😊

There are 255 size 4 pellets in a 42 gram load, would you be prepared to have a pattern test at 90 yards to see how many would land on a pheasant silhouette ( and where  ) ? Say we repeat the test 10 times , remember this will be with a static aim too so human error will be all but absent, I think you may find the gaps between individual pellets will make you think twice about the skill of these super teams. 

[PPP]

I’m afraid that your logic doesn’t follow, there are no clays that simulate high bird shooting, end of...

Unless shooting can stand together and not fight itself we have not chance of standing up to the anti pressures, as I mentioned before, the real issue is that some people shoot at birds beyond their skill level.

And as for you your reference to German teams, we often beat and pick up for a team of visiting Bavarians and the amount of ‘double tap’ pillow casing that goes on is no laughing matter...

Shoot the birds that give you pleasure and unless dangerous or unsporting don’t criticise others choice to shoot what gives them pleasure.

 

 

[Perazzishot]

Only shot clays for 2 years, never bothered about it before at all. If I learnt to concentrate for 10 targets in a row rather than 8 I'd probably be a little better especially on stupid silly stuff! 🙄

Considering these type of extreme shoots are attended by many of the top clay shots on the circuits think tells you it is about testing ones natural ability.

To be honest no-one discusses patterns or chokes too much we all use what works for us, cartridges do get discussed with a few brands being deemed the norm.

Pattern Plates however are 2 dimensional where as a shot pattern is 3 dimensional when you take into account shot string, so won't take into account lead and a pheasant flying into the 3 dimensional lead pellet cloud and potentially taking multiple impacts at different stages of its flight path and that of the shot pattern. Hence why pattern plates don't really give a true reflection of what your pattern is doing in the air.

[GingerCat]

I wouldn't raise my gun to a bird at that range unless I knew it would put the shot into some form of pattern and not a 40 yard shot strong with gaps a bus can drive through. Somewhere between 10-20% kill rate is not consistent in my book. Each to their own. 

[Perazzishot]

So re-ask the question, on a Driven pheasant shoot would you?

1. Only shoot what you are sure to kill?

2. Or what would test your ability?

Because in my book if it's number 1 then why not shoot them on the ground in a pen if you want to kill everything you fire at?

Is it because you think you look a good shot that every pheasant you shoot at you kill 🤔

Think how that is perceived by any watching member of the public....it would be described as a massacre and totally unsporting if the whole line did that.

 

[Hamster]

2 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Only shot clays for 2 years, never bothered about it before at all. If I learnt to concentrate for 10 targets in a row rather than 8 I'd probably be a little better especially on stupid silly stuff! 🙄

Considering these type of extreme shoots are attended by many of the top clay shots on the circuits think tells you it is about testing ones natural ability.

To be honest no-one discusses patterns or chokes too much we all use what works for us, cartridges do get discussed with a few brands being deemed the norm.

Pattern Plates however are 2 dimensional where as a shot pattern is 3 dimensional when you take into account shot string, so won't take into account lead and a pheasant flying into the 3 dimensional lead pellet cloud and potentially taking multiple impacts at different stages of its flight path and that of the shot pattern. Hence why pattern plates don't really give a true reflection of what your pattern is doing in the air.

Again your ballistic inexperience is showing, I'm afraid the two dimensional pattern plate is actually the BEST case scenario  . If you read and study enough data you will come to realise that the "string" makes no odds in improving your chances of hitting moving clays (or game) at real world ranges because the first and last pellets have been and gone by the time the target has moved a mere 4" and that's in the most useful formulation of target versus ejecta speeds  . At silly range it is not only irrelevant but arguably has a negative effect, the whole point is to keep shot compact and as close together as possible, "string" is only going to make things even worse. 

This has never been about shooter accuracy or skill, as others have pointed out already we are not denying that pheasants can be brought down from 90 yards high, it's just that you are doing little more than spray and pray and simply unaware of the ones being pricked, when one in 7 does fall down it's as much random luck (OK I admit you have to point in front and on the line of the bird) as skill.

I have many years clay shooting experience and one thing that has stood out is that on (hittable) birds you will generally lose to the better man but once the distance goes beyond the remit of the gun and ammunition then anything can happen as witnessed by the B and A class shooters who often walk away with some Pool shoot pots. 

[motty]

19 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Only shot clays for 2 years, never bothered about it before at all. If I learnt to concentrate for 10 targets in a row rather than 8 I'd probably be a little better especially on stupid silly stuff! 🙄

Considering these type of extreme shoots are attended by many of the top clay shots on the circuits think tells you it is about testing ones natural ability.

To be honest no-one discusses patterns or chokes too much we all use what works for us, cartridges do get discussed with a few brands being deemed the norm.

Pattern Plates however are 2 dimensional where as a shot pattern is 3 dimensional when you take into account shot string, so won't take into account lead and a pheasant flying into the 3 dimensional lead pellet cloud and potentially taking multiple impacts at different stages of its flight path and that of the shot pattern. Hence why pattern plates don't really give a true reflection of what your pattern is doing in the air.

You don't seem to appreciate that a pheasant could easily fly through the gaps in your shot cloud at 90 yards without being touched. If you disregard choke and pattern, then that is ridiculous.

[Hamster]

1 minute ago, Perazzishot said:

So re-ask the question, on a Driven pheasant shoot would you?

1. Only shoot what you are sure to kill?

2. Or what would test your ability?

Because in my book if it's number 1 then why not shoot them on the ground in a pen if you want to kill everything you fire at?

Is it because you think you look a good shot that every pheasant you shoot at you kill 🤔

Think how that is perceived by any watching member of the public....it would be described as a massacre and totally unsporting if the whole line did that.

 

It's neither, I am never sure about killing a bird cleanly or even hitting it if I'm honest. Neither do I specifically want to test my ability (there's clay shooting for that where I can fire at 90 yarders without any fear of wounding). 

My personal criteria is I won't fire at pigeon/game that experience tells me can be pillow cased and I won't fire at ones experience tells me stand next to no chance of being killed cleanly, for me that happens to be no more than 60 yards (normal range is much closer) although I have occasionally killed them further and will of course always double barrel one that's been wounded. 

ps. I hope you don't feel "ganged up on", I happen to be enjoying the civil exchange. 

[Old farrier]

9 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

So re-ask the question, on a Driven pheasant shoot would you?

1. Only shoot what you are sure to kill?

2. Or what would test your ability?

Because in my book if it's number 1 then why not shoot them on the ground in a pen if you want to kill everything you fire at?

Is it because you think you look a good shot that every pheasant you shoot at you kill 🤔

Think how that is perceived by any watching member of the public....it would be described as a massacre and totally unsporting if the whole line did that.

 

Hi 

take my my hat off to you sir 

for throwing your self into the lions den 🙂

a lot of the remarks made are based on theories and jealousy 

personaly like to take on the extreme birds and enjoy the challenge 

as you say there’s plenty of pricked birds on average shoots 

if you don’t mind be asking what gun are you’re team favouring this season 

all the best 

of 

[Perazzishot]

A pheasant arriving at the front end of a pattern at 45 mph will be hit with multiple strikes at any range.

A pheasant hit in the back end with the start of any pattern will still be wounded as it is flying away from the pattern regardless of height so the wounded argument is totally flawed.

On a clay however front end or back end it is still a kill so totally different scenario and not to be mixed up IMHO!

There's more to a pattern of shotgun pellets than you might think, as Simon Ward explains.

It is a fair assumption that most people who shoot rarely consider shot string. Yes, they may think of the pattern and the speed at which it travels. But the pattern to most mind's eyes is a plate-shaped circle, with hopefully not too many holes in it.

This is precisely what you see when you test a gun on a pattern plate. You get a pretty good idea of how your gun and cartridge combination are performing. But not entirely. For as the pellets fly through the air, they not only do so in the shape of an ever-widening plate but in a long string which extends in flight. In approximate terms it can be around 5 feet in length at 20 yards extending to 8 feet at 30 yards. The accompanying photograph by Susan Brunskill clearly illustrates what happens.

The variation is as a result of deformation of pellets as they pass along the barrel. Those at the bottom of the load in the cartridge will suffer most, as a consequence of which their flight will not be true, nor will they travel at quite the same speed as the front end of the load which will consist of still fairly perfectly spherical pellets.

In effect you are sending a column of pellets in front of the intended target. I'm not normally in favour of getting too bogged down in the technicalities of ballistics, I am more interested in getting the string to the right spot. But I do think that it is useful to understand the dynamics of shot string, as it can give you more confidence in placing your shot ahead of a crossing bird. Ideally you will connect with the centre of the string, where there will be a good concentration of pellets. But you can give a little more forward allowance than you might think is necessary, and the shot string will look after you. Not to mention a good spread of pellets across a 30” circle. Basically it's a wonder we ever miss!

Of course we are talking about a shot charge travelling at 1100fps, so it's not as simple as it sounds, but nevertheless an understanding of the dynamics of the content of your cartridge can only help.

The quality of the cartridge can also make a difference. It is worth trying a few different makes to find which one is the most compatible with your gun. Performance can vary. Generally, as with most things in life, the more expensive cartridges are better, but it may well be that the ‘own brand' cheapies from your local farm shop will do the trick. Once you have found what suits you then stick with it.

Then provided your gun fits you properly, your confidence with your chosen cartridge will blossom. You will not be filled with doubt about your combination - you can just get on with your shooting. The odd misses will be inevitable - forget them. It's the next shot that counts. Have confidence.

[motty]

Anyone who says that consistently killing pheasants at 90 yards is possible, without extremely heavy loads or specialist cartridges, they are living in a fantasy world.