Injured Roe Deer

[Wasabi]

I was out lamping rabbits last night with my hmr when I heard a whack on the road a few hundred meters behind me. We then saw a clearly injured roe doe making its way across the fields.

What's the deal with shooting an injured deer with a non deer legal calibre? 

I'm not saying what I did as either option will be wrong in someone's eyes.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Wasabi

[Benthejockey]

You’re allowed by law to use any means necessary to prevent an injured animal suffering. This could be a quick jab in the atlas joint with a sharp knife, a good crack on the head with a hammer or decapitation with a Samuri sword...probably want to check the legality of carrying and using a Samuri sword though. The problem comes with the wording on your fac. Like most people you probably haven’t got humane dispatch conditioned especially for deer with the HMR. It’s one of those daft grey areas, the HMR is more than capable of scrambling a deers brains in a dispatch situation but you’d fall foul of your certificate conditions. Yet conversely you could potentially use the rifle as a club and that would be fine providing you didn’t cause any suffering. Anyway I hope you helped the deer out regardless of how you did it. 

[Wasabi]

Thanks! 

[old man]

Just observations.

I think legally you are able to kill any animal severely injured using any means possible to end suffering?

The ultimate test could come in a court of law where you have to defend your acions?

This could involve time scales of other means and options available at the time, permissions and every other element that can be thought up by your accusers? Strong nerves would be essential?

The best course as you have done is to do it and keep quiet?

The act of humanity being viewed very differently by all and not at all by some?

Edited November 4, 2018 by old man

[oowee]

Imagine the shocked looked on the drivers in the que of cars in front of me when I walked past the row from the back, Mora in hand to dispatch a roe buck thrashing about on the road. Everyone just sitting there waiting for something to happen. Not pleasant but what else can you do.

Unfortunately no option to keep it quiet on the road in daylight. 

[bluesj]

1 hour ago, Benthejockey said:

You’re allowed by law to use any means necessary to prevent an injured animal suffering. This could be a quick jab in the atlas joint with a sharp knife, a good crack on the head with a hammer or decapitation with a Samuri sword...probably want to check the legality of carrying and using a Samuri sword though. The problem comes with the wording on your fac. Like most people you probably haven’t got humane dispatch conditioned especially for deer with the HMR. It’s one of those daft grey areas, the HMR is more than capable of scrambling a deers brains in a dispatch situation but you’d fall foul of your certificate conditions. Yet conversely you could potentially use the rifle as a club and that would be fine providing you didn’t cause any suffering. Anyway I hope you helped the deer out regardless of how you did it. 

Sussex / Surrey don't condition rifles for humane dispatch as it would be covered under aolq and having good cause, as in you commit what ever  offence if you do not have permission or good cause.

But having said that it doesn't guarantee you won't get your self in hot water, and don't forget you will be guilty until you prove your not!  

[The Burpster]

I have dispatched several deer of different breeds with a shotgun at close range that have been injured and, more frequently trapped in **** fencing that has ripped them open. 

If you KNOW it has debilitating injuries and you can get close enough to ensure a swift dispatch, then do the decent thing. 

[Big Mat]

I'm pretty sure that it's written into the deer acting allowing the use of non deer legal calibers to end suffering

[CharlieT]

6 hours ago, bluesj said:

Sussex / Surrey don't condition rifles for humane dispatch as it would be covered under aolq and having good cause, as in you commit what ever  offence if you do not have permission or good cause.

But having said that it doesn't guarantee you won't get your self in hot water, and don't forget you will be guilty until you prove your not!  

Not 100% correct. A very good friend of mine from Sussex has exactly that condition on his license. One must remember that many animals are not considered quarry species and are therefore not covered by the term AOLQ.

As a .17HMR is not a deer legal caliber it would fail to be covered under AOLQ. Which is exactly why I have all my firearms conditioned for the humane killing of animals.

Humane Killing of Animals

13.38 The humane killing of sick, injured or lawfully trapped animals with a firearm is normally confined to those who may deal with such animals on a fairly regular basis. Examples would include veterinary surgeons, RSPCA inspectors, hunt servants, and occupiers of farms and smallholdings. Once such a firearm certificate is granted, the holder is able to use the firearm for the humane killing of any animal should the need arise, subject to any conditions on the certificate. The holder may also use a shotgun when appropriate. Rifles of any centrefirecalibre may be suitable for this work. For revolvers and slaughtering instruments under section 3 of the 1997 Act, it is suggested a .32 single (or two) shot revolver is suitable for most circumstances, though larger calibres such as the .38 may be considered if the applicant has to deal regularly with large or dangerous animals (for 113 Guide on Firearms Licensing Law example, horses, water buffalo, bison, Highland cattle or larger deer species). Note that section 3 does not refer to the use of any particular cartridge.

13.39 Sound moderators for pistols should generally be authorised only for veterinary surgeons working at racecourses. Adapted conventional handguns are not generally considered suitable for humane dispatch.

The use of solid slug ammunition for shotguns should normally be authorised only for staff on wild boar farms or other farming establishments, though veterinary surgeons may also have a need for solid slug to destroy large animals such as bulls.

The Humane Slaughter Association (HSA) advises that solid slug for shotguns should only be used from a distance and with a suitable backstop. The HSA also advise that, under such circumstances, a suitably powerful rifle may be more accurate. Comprehensive guidance on the humane killing of animals is available from the HSA.

13.40 The humane killing of sick or injured animals is distinct from the slaughter of animals for human consumption. The provision of free firearm certificates applies only to the latter category (see section 32(3) of the 1968 Act). 

[bluesj]

21 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

Not 100% correct. A very good friend of mine from Sussex has exactly that condition on his license. One must remember that many animals are not considered quarry species and are therefore not covered by the term AOLQ.

As a .17HMR is not a deer legal caliber it would fail to be covered under AOLQ. Which is exactly why I have all my firearms conditioned for the humane killing of animals.

Humane Killing of Animals

13.38 The humane killing of sick, injured or lawfully trapped animals with a firearm is normally confined to those who may deal with such animals on a fairly regular basis. Examples would include veterinary surgeons, RSPCA inspectors, hunt servants, and occupiers of farms and smallholdings. Once such a firearm certificate is granted, the holder is able to use the firearm for the humane killing of any animal should the need arise, subject to any conditions on the certificate. The holder may also use a shotgun when appropriate. Rifles of any centrefirecalibre may be suitable for this work. For revolvers and slaughtering instruments under section 3 of the 1997 Act, it is suggested a .32 single (or two) shot revolver is suitable for most circumstances, though larger calibres such as the .38 may be considered if the applicant has to deal regularly with large or dangerous animals (for 113 Guide on Firearms Licensing Law example, horses, water buffalo, bison, Highland cattle or larger deer species). Note that section 3 does not refer to the use of any particular cartridge.

13.39 Sound moderators for pistols should generally be authorised only for veterinary surgeons working at racecourses. Adapted conventional handguns are not generally considered suitable for humane dispatch.

The use of solid slug ammunition for shotguns should normally be authorised only for staff on wild boar farms or other farming establishments, though veterinary surgeons may also have a need for solid slug to destroy large animals such as bulls.

The Humane Slaughter Association (HSA) advises that solid slug for shotguns should only be used from a distance and with a suitable backstop. The HSA also advise that, under such circumstances, a suitably powerful rifle may be more accurate. Comprehensive guidance on the humane killing of animals is available from the HSA.

13.40 The humane killing of sick or injured animals is distinct from the slaughter of animals for human consumption. The provision of free firearm certificates applies only to the latter category (see section 32(3) of the 1968 Act). 

I am aware of all that, and the 4 rifles I have on my fac that are only used for humane dispatch are not conditioned as such, even though that was the good reason that went on my application and why they were granted.

Humane dispatch trumps the deer act (and many other parts of firearms law) so a 17hmr is fine, any thing under 200 joules may be frowned upon but a .22lr would do the job or a hammer if that is what is available. But as said before just because you have done the right thing and best you can doesn't mean you won't end up in hot water.

Also some of the bits you posted are out of date, the rules have changed.

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by bluesj

[Benthejockey]

7 hours ago, bluesj said:

Sussex / Surrey don't condition rifles for humane dispatch as it would be covered under aolq and having good cause, as in you commit what ever  offence if you do not have permission or good cause.

But having said that it doesn't guarantee you won't get your self in hot water, and don't forget you will be guilty until you prove your not!  

Ultimately it comes down to whether you want to run the risk isn’t it. If it was a deer immobilised or cwtched up crippled and dying and it was quiet and there was nobody around then you probably wouldn’t have an issue. If it was the same deer but there were people or police in attendance and you run the risk of them questioning what you’re doing and the more discreet option of using a knife might be the better option. At the end of the day you must do what you feel is appropriate for the situation without getting yourself in trouble. 

[GingerCat]

You won't get into any bother humanely dispatching an injured animal that needs dispatching. 

You may be more likely to get into bother not dispatching said animal when you had the means and just standing about watching it suffer unnecessarily. 

I trust you did what was right at the time. 

[Big Mat]

2 hours ago, bluesj said:

I am aware of all that, and the 4 rifles I have on my fac that are only used for humane dispatch are not conditioned as such, even though that was the good reason that went on my application and why they were granted.

Humane dispatch trumps the deer act (and many other parts of firearms law) so a 17hmr is fine, any thing under 200 joules may be frowned upon but a .22lr would do the job or a hammer if that is what is available. But as said before just because you have done the right thing and best you can doesn't mean you won't end up in hot water.

Also some of the bits you posted are out of date, the rules have changed.

 

It doesn't need to trump the deer act, the act has a specific exemption for the humane dispatch of injured deer using any method

[bumpy22]

i have humane dispatch on my rifles. would i have dispatched this deer??? would i have put the question on a public forum NO

some things are best not talked about on forums

[moose man]

I’ve despatched dozens of deer the have been in rta’s mainly with the .22 but also on the odd occasion the shotgun ..one I came across , that I hadn’t been called out to , while on the way out early the other morning I despatched with a knife , not pleasant but it was in a wretched condition.. 

[quentyn]

just remember this case

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11364567/Police-in-deer-death-row-to-keep-jobs-at-Durham-Constabulary.html

not sure what the moral is if there is one 

[scarecrow243]

what about the gamekeeper who lost his fac after being asked by a police officer to dispatch a roe deer that was hit with a car he used a non deer calibre  as it was at the side of the  road   i am sure i read it on here a while back

[old man]

The relevant wording being " In extremis" 

Others may well have an opinion different to yours?

[neutron619]

The only one I ever did was a muntjac with a 28 gauge shotgun round to the back of the skull - so not even a rifle.

I admit I was slightly concerned about wandering around on the verge of an A road with a shotgun, but I called the police, told them what I intended and they asked me whether I could take the animal away to save them sending an officer to check the road was clear! Not a problem, as you can imagine.

The woman who had bounced it off her car was understandably a bit hysterical having basically snapped the poor thing in half - the front end was moving and the back end, not so much. She calmed down a bit once I'd killed it, but I'm glad I was there since she showed no sign of having any clue what to do.

I defy anyone to tell me I was in the wrong, using what I had with me. The only bit I found slightly sad about it was that before it was hit, I'd seen it in the distance, charging across the bottom of the field I was walking that morning and thought to myself "magnificent!", only to hear the inevitable bang of bonnet-meets-deer a twenty seconds later. **** happens, I guess.

[scarecrow243]

anyone who puts any badly hurt animal out of pain quickly  should not get in bother  the law  should be changed with no hidden ifs or buts

[Jonno243]

A very interesting question actually, and one that I had not considered in depth before now. Although under the terms of the Deer Act it would be defense in law to use any reasonable means to end the suffering of an injured animal, under the terms of the Firearms act it would be a violation to use a firearm for any purpose for which it was not conditioned. As noted above the AOLQ condition could not be used for anything other than a deer legal caliber since deer are not "legal" or "lawful" quarry with respect to rimfire rifles (I am making a rather large assumption on rimfire based on the OP's "lamping rabbits" and "non-deer legal caliber" statements)

For a couched or immobile animal at very short range then a quick and painless dispatch is pretty much assured at the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, but for an animal "making its way across the fields" there are too many variables to make a call from behind a keyboard; it is a decision that could only be made by a particular gun at that particular moment, and I suspect that you might be on very shaky ground legally speaking. It is somewhat ironic that the two applicable pieces of legislation are diametrically opposed in this case (the Deer Act would seem to permit it as "reasonable means" but the Firearms Act would forbid it as contrary to licensing conditions). I suppose which piece of legislation is given priority would be down to the Magistrate or Sheriff on the day if it got that far.

As you quite rightly point out in your post, when it comes to public forums you are damned if you do and damned if you don't so the one certainty is that, regardless of the outcome or situation, I would be following the First Rule of Fight Club......

 

[Wasabi]

On 04/11/2018 at 20:05, bumpy22 said:

i have humane dispatch on my rifles. would i have dispatched this deer??? would i have put the question on a public forum NO

some things are best not talked about on forums

Why? As it stands I now have a much better understanding of the legal situation if I find myself in a similar predicament in the future.