What a mess!

[Zapp]

There are enough examples of members of organised crime groups serving very long sentences who are still fully active in orchestrating and profiting from criminality in the community to make the assertion about public protection being automatically ensured questionable.

As I said before, what's surely in everyone's interest is a system that actuallý works.

Take the recent success in countries like the Netherlands, where they are closing prisons because the spaces are no longer needed. Their system is demonstrably working.  Could it be adopted here? Maybe.  Would it be?  Almost certainly not because the discussion is always about how tough we want to be rather than pragmatism.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Bloody hell, just looked and found this;

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dutch-prisons-are-closing-because-the-country-is-so-safe-a7765521.html

Get it working here please.

[Retsdon]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Bloody hell, just looked and found this;

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dutch-prisons-are-closing-because-the-country-is-so-safe-a7765521.html

Get it working here please.

I've also been looking at the Dutch stats. Apparently the figures are not all that they might seem. https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2017/01/a-low-crime-rate-dutch-police-are-unaware-of-most-crimes-says-leaked-report/

[hambone]

10 hours ago, oowee said:

We could afford it with a proper taxation. Start by collecting more tax fairly with a properly resourced inland revenue.

As an employed high earner on £150k I am taxed at a marginal rate of 45%. I have no personal allowance as over £100k it drops by a £ for every £ earnt my pension contribution with tax relief is reduced from £40k to 10k. If I am self employed I can be paid a salary that has no tax, supplemented with profits that are taxed at 18% and take home twice the money of my employed friend for the same level of gross income. There are many people self employed earning a top line income over £150k that could be taxed. 

The black market trade in goods and services for cash should be taxed. 

International company taxation is woeful. 

 

That might be accurate ( I hope as I am not long self employed) but think about workers on paye = paid holidays, sickness pay, private pensions (be nice to have a government one ) company vehicles, shift allowance, overtime rates etc. and it evens out quite a bit. 

[oowee]

8 hours ago, hambone said:

That might be accurate ( I hope as I am not long self employed) but think about workers on paye = paid holidays, sickness pay, private pensions (be nice to have a government one ) company vehicles, shift allowance, overtime rates etc. and it evens out quite a bit. 

Good point re holidays and sick pay. Pension is not so great when the allowance is reduced to just £10k. Good luck with your business. 👍

[Muddy Funker]

Without reading anything other than the thread title.

Cutting police numbers and the drama surrounding stop and search where the odds are stacked against the cop.

Both caused by government so they can reap what they've sown can't they?

 

Edit: Plus a useless judicial system, how many people would carry a knife if you straight up got 5 years inside for carrying one?

I'd happily pay more taxes so bigger prisons could be built.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Muddy Funker

[Muddy Funker]

16 hours ago, Zapp said:

The inference I draw from it is that simply having a harsh penal system is not a guarantee of deterrence. 

It is from that offender though.

I'm not suggesting you do but it always makes me laugh when people say prison doesn't work, it does work brilliantly.

A burglar can't break into your house if they're locked up in prison.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

9 minutes ago, Muddy Funker said:

It is from that offender though.

I'm not suggesting you do but it always makes me laugh when people say prison doesn't work, it does work brilliantly.

A burglar can't break into your house if they're locked up in prison.

Yes, we just have a poorly motivated and staffed Police Force, a weak judiciary and not enough spaces in the prisons

[fse10]

On 07/11/2018 at 09:50, JohnfromUK said:

 

So what is the solution?  Zero tolerance?  Short sharp shock?  The birch?

I don't disagree with your interpretation of the root cause, but I'm at a loss as to how to tackle it.

Same way they do in Saudi .

[Zapp]

1 hour ago, Muddy Funker said:

It is from that offender though.

I'm not suggesting you do but it always makes me laugh when people say prison doesn't work, it does work brilliantly.

A burglar can't break into your house if they're locked up in prison.

I agree where low level non networked offenders are comcerned, but with the advent of mobile phones there has been a huge rise in criminal activity arranged and carried out from prisons.  Granted it is largely to do with conveying contraband into jails but it can have severe impact on communities, especially where prison debt is concerned.

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, Zapp said:

but with the advent of mobile phones there has been a huge rise in criminal activity arranged and carried out from prisons

It is entirely possible to prevent mobiles in prisons http://www.secintel.com/ecom-prodshow/prison_jammer.html (as I believe they also do in some theatres/opera places), but the prisoners don't 'like it' and basically they are in charge ....... and that is a big part of what is wrong with the whole system. 

The 'authorities' have no real authority over those who don't want to accept it.  The law abiding (like I'm sure those here) follow the rules ...... but if you choose not to, there is little chance of any retribution.  For the minor offences like parking, speeding - they are like mustard because it is easy, but for dealing with prisoners, travellers, hardened dealers - they aren't so keen.

[Zapp]

Tech does exist to jam illicit phones but that's not all it jams, which causes all sorts of problems for implementing it.

The comment about it being a lack of action based on prisoners not liking it is pretty silly, sorry.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Zapp said:

but that's not all it jams, which causes all sorts of problems for implementing it.

Not so - it is quite intelligent if you read the link.

1 minute ago, Zapp said:

about it being a lack of action based on prisoners not liking it is pretty silly, sorry.

No need to alologise, but I don't really agree since that is (apparently) why smoking is still allowed.  There would be too much backlash to banning it.  A prison governor and his staff have to tread quite lightly as the many prison riots in the past show.

[Zapp]

The rollout of smoke free prisons was completed earlier this year.  Smoking is not permitted in any closed prison in England or Wales.

I did read the link. There has yet to be a cost effective jammer system which is both fully effective across the different types of prison builds and also fully compliant with legislation.

[JohnfromUK]

10 minutes ago, Zapp said:

The rollout of smoke free prisons was completed earlier this year.  Smoking is not permitted in any closed prison in England or Wales.

I did read the link. There has yet to be a cost effective jammer system which is both fully effective across the different types of prison builds and also fully compliant with legislation.

I'm behind the times on the smoke issue then.

I have no idea what the jammer costs, or indeed what it would need to cost to be cost effective, but from the link it is suggested that it is used in prisons elsewhere (USA?).  It might be that legislation would need to be changed to allow this, but that might be a good and worthwhile thing to do.  I didn't in fact know that phones (albeit regulated) are allowed in UK prisoners cells apparently.  I assume this means mobiles?  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-prison-phones-cells-reforms-england-wales-justice-secretary-david-guake-a8439811.html

Edited November 8, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[Zapp]

The only mobiles that are allowed into closed prisons are for staff in very specific circumstances, and in open prisons where inmates have certain licence conditions and are employed in roles such as drop off or return from work detail where the prison may need to get hold of them or they may need to contact the prison or emergency services.

[panoma1]

45 minutes ago, Zapp said:

The rollout of smoke free prisons was completed earlier this year.  Smoking is not permitted in any closed prison in England or Wales.

I did read the link. There has yet to be a cost effective jammer system which is both fully effective across the different types of prison builds and also fully compliant with legislation.

Strange that smoke is not permitted in pubs, public buildings or prisons.........But smoking is permitted in the Houses of Parliament innit? 🤔

[Scully]

2 hours ago, panoma1 said:

Strange that smoke is not permitted in pubs, public buildings or prisons.........But smoking is permitted in the Houses of Parliament innit? 🤔

Palaces are exempt from the smoking ban, and Westminster is a palace. That’s lucky eh! 😃

[Rewulf]

Did anyone watch Question time last night, one audience member had a novel approach to knife crime.
15 years for carrying.
Extermination for using !

Also a fascinating demonstration of 'sky drawing' from Dianne Abbot , coupled with some impressive eye rolling.
Jordan Petersen barely got to speak, and when he did, she took it that far out of context it was like he had said something completely different !
Good to see shes just as entertaining as ever. 🤣

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIqeayENY2o   7m35s

Edited November 9, 2018 by Rewulf

[Mice!]

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Did anyone watch Question time last night, one audience member had a novel approach to knife crime.
15 years for carrying.
Extermination for using !

Also a fascinating demonstration of 'sky drawing' from Dianne Abbot , coupled with some impressive eye rolling.
Jordan Petersen barely got to speak, and when he did, she took it that far out of context it was like he had said something completely different !
Good to see shes just as entertaining as ever. 🤣

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIqeayENY2o   7m35s

They actually let Diane abbot on the telly where she could be questioned!!

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

They actually let Diane abbot on the telly where she could be questioned!!

She's on question time often, its proper cringy watching her in action, it's embarrassing !

Could be our next home secretary 😂

[Rewulf]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6376061/Sadiq-Khan-slammed-squandering-7-1m-year-police-budget-penpusher-executives.html

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Good grief...........

"About £7.1 million a year is paid to frontline staff. Highest paid is chief executive Rebecca Lawrence, an ex-civil servant who takes home a salary of £151,500. 

Chief financial officer Siobhan Peters is paid £126,250, as is former New Labour adviser Sophie Linden, the Deputy Mayor for policing and crime.

Director of strategy Paul Wylie; director of audit, risk and assurance Julie Norgrove; director of criminal justice policy and commissioning Sam Cunningham; and director of strategic partnerships and insight Marie Snelling all have salaries in the region of £116,000 according to MOPAC's website, although a spokesman said two of the senior managers work part-time so are paid less.A spokesman for the Mayor of London said: 'MOPAC has been more successful in bidding for investment from the Government and other agencies and so expenditure has gone up. 'The increase has been spent on violence reduction work, services to tackle violence against women and girls and to improve services for victims and witnesses.'"

[Vince Green]

On ‎07‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 19:38, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Bloody hell, just looked and found this;

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dutch-prisons-are-closing-because-the-country-is-so-safe-a7765521.html

Get it working here please.

Holland has a lot of low level crime from refugees, they don't put them in prison they just kick them out of the country. Put them on Megabus in Amsterdam and tell them to go to UK. Urban myth or strange but true? 

9 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Good grief...........

"About £7.1 million a year is paid to frontline staff. Highest paid is chief executive Rebecca Lawrence, an ex-civil servant who takes home a salary of £151,500. 

Chief financial officer Siobhan Peters is paid £126,250, as is former New Labour adviser Sophie Linden, the Deputy Mayor for policing and crime.

Director of strategy Paul Wylie; director of audit, risk and assurance Julie Norgrove; director of criminal justice policy and commissioning Sam Cunningham; and director of strategic partnerships and insight Marie Snelling all have salaries in the region of £116,000 according to MOPAC's website, although a spokesman said two of the senior managers work part-time so are paid less.A spokesman for the Mayor of London said: 'MOPAC has been more successful in bidding for investment from the Government and other agencies and so expenditure has gone up. 'The increase has been spent on violence reduction work, services to tackle violence against women and girls and to improve services for victims and witnesses.'"

 

So what you are saying is they are earning about the same as a London taxi driver?