Changes To The General Licence

[Yellow Bear]

13 minutes ago, old'un said:

Looks like farmers will adapt where they can.

Went out this morning to see a local farmer as he is due to sow some maize this week, we were chatting about the situation and I mentioned we may have something in the way of a new GL licence this week for crows, the farmer is well up on the situation and informed me he’s purchased two new gas guns and a couple of hawk kites, I have shot this farm for 30+ years, its mainly dairy/grass but he puts a couple of fields of maize in every year and he always phones me when its in, all the years I have shot this farm he as never had a gas gun, but he said he just cannot take the risk of me not being able to shoot the crows, think we might see a bit more of this if they don’t get things sorted sharpish.

 

6 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

Unfortunately they get used to it, they will lift circle then drop back in. 

This is true but I suspect the main problem will be local residents (if any)  with the gas guns going from dawn to dusk.

[ilovemyheckler]

I think Wild Justice always knew they would eventually lose this one but their ultimate goal is to stop shooting so I expect that they will try and stop the General Licences being used by gamekeepers. Their argument will probably be that it is unlawful to use the General licences to protect non native birds by killing native birds that are protected under the current wildlife act.

While we maynot like Packham and co. he is not the fool that alot of people think he is and he has it in for shooting so we need to be aware. Hopefully BASC/CA etc. will now step up to the plate and use our membership fees to sort this out quickly.

I remember before the hunting ban in 2005 alot of people saying "they will never ban hunting" and when it was they said "the act will be repealed" and it hasn't and isn't likely to be, certainly not in the near future. I think the longer it goes unrepealed the less likely it is to evr be repealed.

 

Hopefully I am wrong

[JJsDad]

1 hour ago, gotgcoalman said:

been refreshing the NE web page since I got in from work and no update as of 30 seconds ago.

With all the shooting organisations up in arms over the first one (Crows), as being unfit for purpose and unworkable; they are probably having to look very closely at every single word they now print. Any more disasters and Mr Gove will have his hatchet men visiting Natural England, and they wont be `conservationists` !

Edited April 29, 2019 by JJsDad

[Brad93]

Approaching end of business and still no licences for pigeons. 

[old'un]

If the wording in any new license remains the same (which I think it will) I personally don’t think we have a leg to stand on, you the shooter will have to prove you have used ALL non-lethal methods to prevent SERIOUS damage.

[old'un]

1 hour ago, ShootingEgg said:

Unfortunately they get used to it, they will lift circle then drop back in. 

Well in that case, under the rules set out in the GL you can shoot the birds, or, Will you need to try non-lethal method A,B,C or D before shooting?

 

[ShootingEgg]

11 minutes ago, old'un said:

Well in that case, under the rules set out in the GL you can shoot the birds, or, Will you need to try non-lethal method A,B,C or D before shooting?

 

Your guess is as good as mine on that.. A, B, C, D.. E F G?!?! How many forms of scaring is there

Edited April 29, 2019 by ShootingEgg

[ditchman]

when this gets "sorted out"................are we going to have to apply for a permit everytime we go shooting ?........

cause that is the way it seems to be going 

[Cumbrian]

7 minutes ago, old'un said:

If the wording in any new license remains the same (which I think it will) I personally don’t think we have a leg to stand on, you the shooter will have to prove you have used ALL non-lethal methods to prevent SERIOUS damage.

But under what circumstances would anyone be obliged to prove this? Who is actually going to enforce the new restrictions? The police already can't enforce more important laws. And how is adequate evidence going to be gathered? Packham and his kind can't patrol the whole country. And the shooting crows or pigeons by an individual will be considerably more difficult to video than a lumbering set of hounds and huntsmen that illegally go after a fox. The CPS won't act unless the evidence is pretty good and unless action is definitely in the public interest.  

That is not to say that where shooting of avian pests takes place in a way that might be fairly obvious to vigilante mini-Packhams those doing the shooting shouldn't be rather careful about the law, nor am I suggesting that it should be broken. It's simply that I think the practicalities of enforcement may prove quite a challenge.

[walt1980]

We all know the new version is going to end up as a compromise, hopefully allowing farmers to have their crops protected and pests controlled. 

As I see it our best chance to keep things as good as we can is going to be a compromise on it, the question is what are we willing to give up? 

I don’t think we’re going to have it all as it was for the short term and probably even less so in the long term. Personally, I think this will be the slow beginning of a huge amount of restrictions on shooting. Firstly pigeons, then game birds, then deer management. 

So, what would we concede in terms of pigeon shooting? Roost shooting? Flight line shooting? A closed season? Obviously we’d LIKE to keep it how it is, ok just can’t see it happening. 

With regard to crows, would they say only on farms with livestock? 

Just curious as I think a compromise is going to be the only way it’s going to go. Hopefully they’ve put forward their terms and Basc/Ca etc can put forward their arguments to keep as much as possible. 

[old'un]

6 minutes ago, ditchman said:

when this gets "sorted out"................are we going to have to apply for a permit everytime we go shooting ?........

cause that is the way it seems to be going 

No, the licence will be like the old one, you do not need to apply for the licence, it will cover you wherever you shoot so long as you have tried ALL non-lethal methods first.

[mossy835]

if you had to apply for a licence each time you go shooting ,they will never keep up with it,

[gotgcoalman]

no update.

My refresh button is worn out now.

Once it is released.

It will probably read along the lines of ........

Once ALL non leathal methods outlined A-Z have been exhausted and you feel only leathal action will be required.

Refer to method A.

[mossy835]

if we had to apply each time we go shooting, they would never keep up,

[Scully]

I wouldn’t concede anything. As far as I’m concerned it isn’t up for negotiation and our shooting orgs need to install in NE just how impractical and unrealistic many of the things are that they are proposing.

We will no doubt just have to work with what we are given, but I wouldn’t concede anything. 

[gotgcoalman]

Don't see why there should be a compromise.

It would be 1 step up the ladder for the anti shooting brigade and 1 down for us.

It wouldn't be too long before they were at the top by nibbling away like rodents,you don't notice small bits of damage until it's too late

 

[walt1980]

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love it to stay as it is, but just can’t see it happening. I was curious about what part of shooting pigeons could be given up, as in which is the least effective and could therefore be used as a bargaining tool! 

[ShootingEgg]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

I wouldn’t concede anything. As far as I’m concerned it isn’t up for negotiation and our shooting orgs need to install in NE just how impractical and unrealistic many of the things are that they are proposing.

We will no doubt just have to work with what we are given, but I wouldn’t concede anything. 

 

2 minutes ago, gotgcoalman said:

Don't see why there should be a compromise.

It would be 1 step up the ladder for the anti shooting brigade and 1 down for us.

It wouldn't be too long before they were at the top by nibbling away like rodents,you don't notice small bits of damage until it's too late

 

Exactly, as soon as we back down they will be on is like a kid in a free pic a mix shop. 

Just now, walt1980 said:

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love it to stay as it is, but just can’t see it happening. I was curious about what part of shooting pigeons could be given up, as in which is the least effective and could therefore be used as a bargaining tool! 

Why give any of it up!? Pigeons should be on pest/vermin list... 

[Scully]

47 minutes ago, old'un said:

If the wording in any new license remains the same (which I think it will) I personally don’t think we have a leg to stand on, you the shooter will have to prove you have used ALL non-lethal methods to prevent SERIOUS damage.

Prove to who though? 

[gotgcoalman]

2 minutes ago, walt1980 said:

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love it to stay as it is, but just can’t see it happening. I was curious about what part of shooting pigeons could be given up, as in which is the least effective and could therefore be used as a bargaining tool! 

The bit about scarecrows on chairs could go.

[old'un]

27 minutes ago, Cumbrian said:

But under what circumstances would anyone be obliged to prove this? Who is actually going to enforce the new restrictions? The police already can't enforce more important laws. And how is adequate evidence going to be gathered? Packham and his kind can't patrol the whole country. And the shooting crows or pigeons by an individual will be considerably more difficult to video than a lumbering set of hounds and huntsmen that illegally go after a fox. The CPS won't act unless the evidence is pretty good and unless action is definitely in the public interest.  

That is not to say that where shooting of avian pests takes place in a way that might be fairly obvious to vigilante mini-Packhams those doing the shooting shouldn't be rather careful about the law, nor am I suggesting that it should be broken. It's simply that I think the practicalities of enforcement may prove quite a challenge.

As you say there are people out there just waiting to challenge someone, I have been reading Mark Avery’s blog and there are plenty of Packham followers willing to shop someone to the police, the police will be forced to attend if the informant tells the police there could be a possible breach of the peace, unfortunately, if you have read the rules in the new licence the onus of proof will be ours, keep notes of damage being caused, keep notes of non-lethal methods used, use lethal methods only if serious damage is occurring, etc.

Its also possible WJ may take private prosecutions of an individual shooter/shooters to make an example.

[gotgcoalman]

I'm sure it was mentioned that non leathal shots could still be fired to scare birds away.

So even if you're shooting in a field in a non leathal manner they could report you.although you are still within the law.

[Cumbrian]

10 minutes ago, old'un said:

As you say there are people out there just waiting to challenge someone, I have been reading Mark Avery’s blog and there are plenty of Packham followers willing to shop someone to the police, the police will be forced to attend if the informant tells the police there could be a possible breach of the peace, unfortunately, if you have read the rules in the new licence the onus of proof will be ours, keep notes of damage being caused, keep notes of non-lethal methods used, use lethal methods only if serious damage is occurring, etc.

Its also possible WJ may take private prosecutions of an individual shooter/shooters to make an example.

 

Surely 'a breach of the peace' is a riot or an affray, which is quite serious, much more so than merely a possible infringement of the laws protecting wild birds? I don't see too many police forces sending officers miles into the country for a mere possibility. Private prosecutions are not easy to undertake because they need the approval of the CPS, or so I understand but I am subject to correction. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Cumbrian

[old'un]

4 minutes ago, gotgcoalman said:

I'm sure it was mentioned that non leathal shots could still be fired to scare birds away.

So even if you're shooting in a field in a non leathal manner they could report you.although you are still within the law.

Not if there are no dead birds at your feet.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, has there been any updates from N/E ?