Brexit - merged threads

[Rewulf]

40 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

But that’s not what you voted for! You voted to leave the EU, not a border Policy akin to the Australian/ US model- that’s something totally separate and is in the domain of the Home Secretary already!

 

1 hour ago, pinfireman said:

No, I do not! I think ALL immigration should be controlled, as in Australia! 

You know very well you cant control EU immigration as a sovereign country, you have to let the EU do what it wants, and if it says 10 million Eastern Europeans can come to the UK and do part time cleaning work, or man car washes, theres absolutely nothing we can do about it.

 

10 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Quite ironic that in barring EU Citizens that it has been seen according to the ONS, that they have been replaced by migration from outside from nations who traditionally have larger, and extended families, so more of a drain than your current 2.2 child, Polish ( used this nation as it’s often the most quoted on here) family.

When did this happen ?
No one has been barred, and no one is going to get barred, they can still come, they can still work, we havnt even left yet !
When we do , theres nothing to stop them still coming, they just wont qualify for the same benefits, unless theyve lived here (*and contributed) for a certain time.
Non EU migrants still face stringent tests, and will continue to do so.
You talk as if we have opened the flood gates to legal 3rd world migrants as well as the illegal ones.

Nothing has changed, if farmers need fruit pickers, or theres demand for an Albanian car wash on every street corner then they can still come.
Its not like we know half of them are here anyway, whats putting them off is the fact they have to register for right to remain status, some of them dont seem to like that...

[Jaymo]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

You know very well you cant control EU immigration as a sovereign country, you have to let the EU do what it wants, and if it says 10 million Eastern Europeans can come to the UK and do part time cleaning work, or man car washes, theres absolutely nothing we can do about it.

 

When did this happen ?
No one has been barred, and no one is going to get barred, they can still come, they can still work, we havnt even left yet !
When we do , theres nothing to stop them still coming, they just wont qualify for the same benefits, unless theyve lived here (*and contributed) for a certain time.
Non EU migrants still face stringent tests, and will continue to do so.
You talk as if we have opened the flood gates to legal 3rd world migrants as well as the illegal ones.

Nothing has changed, if farmers need fruit pickers, or theres demand for an Albanian car wash on every street corner then they can still come.
Its not like we know half of them are here anyway, whats putting them off is the fact they have to register for right to remain status, some of them dont seem to like that...

Barring is probably my poor choice ( give me a chance- has general anaesthetic today and bit loopy).

Ok, should have said that the current workers who have already decided to return due to uncertainty and animosity ( better 🙂 )

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Barring is probably my poor choice ( give me a chance- has general anaesthetic today and bit loopy).

Ok, should have said that the current workers who have already decided to return due to uncertainty and animosity ( better 🙂 )

OK mate , hope nothing too serious ?

[Jaymo]

47 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

OK mate , hope nothing too serious ?

Nope- shoulder op due to bone spur and loss of cartilage, previous sporting accidents. 

Only a day case, feeling a hundred years 😉

[Raja Clavata]

7 hours ago, Mice! said:

You must have missed my earlier comments on why i wanted to leave.

but as for your final paragraph above, I'm an engineer with kids, if we kept being forced by a foreign power to allow unlimited migration where are our kids going to work or live? 

If we are getting skilled motivated people who have gone through a process then great, such as Australia do, but just allowing in everybody and expecting infrastructure NHS housing to cope, that's just Corbyns dream of more votes.

I must admit that I haven't read all 188 pages of this thread.

I agree that housing is an issue but it seems to me that a lot of the issues that arise are due to government not acting on the mechanisms it available to them to limit migration.

I don't know if the limits on visas for skilled non EU candidates has been increased but in 2017 / 18 the company I work for was constrained by very few visas being available but since late 2016 we have seen a steady flow of skilled EU workers out the door that we have not been able to back-fill. Of course not all of the attrition has been due to Brexit but it has contributed particularly due to the uncertainty.

8 hours ago, Mice! said:

The "fear" of another vote means there will be another every two years, because it will just keep going.

As for crashing out, that would have been great but we had to give notice, so we did.

I really do hope its no deal come March, we can say stick it and see what happens, i don't see the shops not selling food and can't see the lights going out. But they might in Europe when the cracks they've been trying to cover split wide open.

I too would prefer no deal over the government plan but that seems like the least most likely outcome at present.

[Raja Clavata]

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

And not once have I mentioned immigration !

I think Im wasting my time, because your mind is set.
But dont break down leavers reasons into 'bloody foreigners' and 'the bus' because that not only shows ignorance, but also an unwillingness to engage with differing views, and a lack of respect.
Be better than that.
 

I didn't accuse you of having a thing about immigration, I shared the views of my friends and I have not accused anyone of being racist, least of all them. 

I really don't know how you imply I have shown a lack of respect, unwillingness to engage with differing views and exhibited ignorance.

[Raja Clavata]

5 hours ago, Scully said:

I have two kids also, one 22 the other 19; both at university. I'm not afraid and neither are they. I recall the day after the vote, where a local girl who was 18 at the time ranted on FB about the selfishness of the older generations ( and my generation ) for effectively wiping out the futures of her generation. She fell quiet after I pointed out that her generation had had the opportunity to vote, and blew it, and that if she really wanted to learn of a generation which had their futures wiped out by an elder generation she could look outward to the centenary of that said generation, rather than looking inward to her own. She was at drama school in London at the time, and less than a fortnight after her rant, her proud parents announced she had been selected for a four month dance and theatre tour of Bulgaria. She went from strength to strength and is now in the early stages of starting her own theatre company.....poor mite.

My daughter asked me some time ago what I thought would happen if and when we leave, and I told her people will just get on with their lives, as they do so now. I suspect this will be highly likely. 

I'm not afraid of leaving, but am afraid of remaining. My only hope now is that the EU comes crashing down like an old condemned building. 

But do you agree the government plan just puts us in no mans land. I'm hoping that's something we can agree on. My real concern is the prospect of leaving but not really leaving then we'd be at the mercy of EU without any say on the trajectory of it's demise. I think it's difficult to predict if we do more damage to the EU by staying in it or leaving it. Do you have a view on this?

3 hours ago, pinfireman said:

Finally, someone is doing something positive! Watch the video! No more sitting on our hands!

https://youtu.be/lj0cIjr-egM

Leave Means Leave have announced the ‘March to Leave’ where over the course of thirteen days, Brexiteers will be marching the length of Enlgand from Sunderland down to Westminster, in time for our scheduled departure from the European Union on March 29th. The route pays homage to the working class Jarrow March of 1936…

The campaign was launched this afternoon by Nigel Farage, John Longworth, Esther McVey, and Richard Tice. Each day the marchers will travel between two locations with Leave Means Leave inviting Brexiteers from up and down the country to join them for some (or all!) of the way. Each day they’ll be walking for an average of five hours. 

Guido Fawkes  www.order-order

 

Farming Minister George Eustice has resigned today over concerns the Government will back an extension to Article 50. He has said he will support the Withdrawal Agreement in the meaningful vote, but that he will back measures, if necessary for the UK to “reclaim our freedom first and talk afterwards.” He does not hold back in saying the EU Commission has not behaved honourably throughout these negotiations…

“I have stuck with the Government through a series of undignified retreats. However I fear that developments this week will lead to a sequence of events culminating in the EU dictating the terms of any extension requested and the final humiliation of our country.”

His full letter can be read on the Guido Fawkes site! Well worth a read!

Another man with principles!

Guido Fawkes  www.order-order

Thanks to  those who oppose democracy. A bit close to home?

Great, Farage is arranging a walk, that'll sort it.

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I do, and the only reason they havnt already voted to ignore the result , is because they cant think of a way to get away with it without serious repercussions.

 

Of course it wasnt!
How on earth could the leave side say with any accuracy how the landscape would look.
Yet the EU threatened all kinds of mayhem would ensue, the BOE also , not to mention the tory government saying anything up to and including WW3 could happen.

Leave dared to say that more money could be spent on the NHS , and its become a remainer mantra ever since they lost.
The more sensible economists put forward the idea that European business relied heavily on trade with us , so it would be unlikely that we couldnt do some kind of tariff free deal.
The government stated very early on that EU citizens rights would be protected, and expected a reciprocal agreement.

'You will be sorry/punished' was all you got back from  fuhrer Verhofstadt, more threats and drunken ramblings from Junker, yet we are supposed to come to agreement on the future relationship ?

When will remainers realise that the EU does not respect the UKs vote to leave it, and was always going to try to wreck the decision, by hook or crook?
This is what you are dealing with, yet we were supposed to know 2 and 1/2 years ago during the referendum what the options were for our future dealings with them ?

Seriously Grant, you have your reasons for thinking the whole thing is a bad idea, as has Raja and Jaymo, but take it right back to the beginning ,and you will read on these threads that Brussels and the pigs that dwell in it, were never going to let us go without a wholly vindictive fight, their gluttonous future depends on it.
What wasnt so apparent , was the number of our elected MPs that are assisting them in the endeavour, for their own personal/financial reasons.
Most of them cannot even say they have a mandate from their own constituencies, as they clearly havnt.

Brexit was always a step into the unknown,  yet the majority were happy to take it, be it bravery , stupidity , but its their choice, their right to take control of their own destiny.
No one has the right, not in this country anyway, to tell someone their vote doesnt count because they didnt know what the results of it would be.

I respect the rights of remainers to have their opinion.
But if you believe in the democracy that this country is built on, respect the vote that won.
 

This is a fair post fella!

[Mice!]

9 hours ago, Mice! said:

Put in simple terms we were asked to vote Leave or remain, I've said before that my mum had never voted in a GE but did vote Leave. For me personally i wanted our country ruled by us, not a Failing European super state.

I've never believed half of what either leave or remain said before the referendum, since when did politicians tell the truth?

 

31 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

must admit that I haven't read all 188 pages of this thread.

it was 9 hours ago 😉 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

16 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

But do you agree the government plan just puts us in no mans land. I'm hoping that's something we can agree on. My real concern is the prospect of leaving but not really leaving then we'd be at the mercy of EU without any say on the trajectory of it's demise. I think it's difficult to predict if we do more damage to the EU by staying in it or leaving it. Do you have a view on this?

Hence the requirement to maintain the possibility of the "NO DEAL!"

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Mice! said:

 

it was 9 hours ago 😉 

yes just spotted that, sorry, other people were posting in burst fire mode, including me I guess :-/

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Hence the requirement to maintain the possibility of the "NO DEAL!"

Absolutely, our only real bargaining tool.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Blimey, you've changed your tune!

[Scully]

20 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

But do you agree the government plan just puts us in no mans land. I'm hoping that's something we can agree on. My real concern is the prospect of leaving but not really leaving then we'd be at the mercy of EU without any say on the trajectory of it's demise. I think it's difficult to predict if we do more damage to the EU by staying in it or leaving it. Do you have a view on this?

 

Yes, I agree the government plan simply leaves us in limbo, neither in nor out, which is why the no deal HAS to remain on the table. I've always favoured no deal from day one. Just leave. I really don't get what people are so frightened about; it's not like we're going to war. What is the worst thing that could happen? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, Scully said:

Yes, I agree the government plan simply leaves us in limbo, neither in nor out, which is why the no deal HAS to remain on the table. I've always favoured no deal from day one. Just leave. I really don't get what people are so frightened about; it's not like we're going to war. What is the worst thing that could happen? 

We might fall off the CLIFF!

[oowee]

No deal seems like the ideal bargaining chip but its like bargaining with a pistol it has no subtlety.  We should be negotiating from a point of shared goals but we can't do that as the Government has no shared goals. A poorly thought out referendum, without defined objectives and goals. Is it any wonder we are where we are. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

No deal seems like the ideal bargaining chip but its like bargaining with a pistol it has no subtlety.  We should be negotiating from a point of shared goals but we can't do that as the Government has no shared goals. A poorly thought out referendum, without defined objectives and goals. Is it any wonder we are where we are. 

Subtlety, we are dealing with the 4th Reich!

[Retsdon]

27 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Subtlety, we are dealing with the 4th Reich!

What makes you say that? I'm genuinely curious. The other thing is that I've never understood what it is exactly that you want the EU to do? 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Retsdon

[Newbie to this]

57 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

We might fall off the CLIFF!

This one?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I hate the way the unelected hierarchy are telling all the member countries what to do.

Let us go with a reasonable deal!

[12gauge82]

5 hours ago, oowee said:

There are rules for EU members about membership and budgets and contributions which we should leave behind. Agreed.

There are EU rules associated with trading standards that we may want to maintain to sell goods and services. Exactly the same as there will be standards for the US and anywhere else that we sell too that we have to abide by to trade.

The difference with Europe is many of these rules are tied to and linked with free trade arrangements, let alone all of those with all the other stuff (R&D environmental treaties fishing etc etc ) and if possible it makes sense for both sides to agree those where we can from an in position rather than from a weaker third country position.  

I don't see it as muddying the waters, it's more a case of unraveling the complexity built up over the last 40 years or so.

Its simple, we have voted to leave the EU, which is made up of several core rules, I.e freedom of movement, the customs Union, the single market ect, if we don't leave the EU and its core rules, the leave vote will not have been honoured, it matters not which way its twisted! 

[JRDS]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

No deal seems like the ideal bargaining chip but its like bargaining with a pistol it has no subtlety.  We should be negotiating from a point of shared goals but we can't do that as the Government has no shared goals. A poorly thought out referendum, without defined objectives and goals. Is it any wonder we are where we are. 

 

The EU has absolutely no shared goals with us, we are a cash cow and a dumping ground for their unemployed end off.  They blatantly hold us in total disdain.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Blimey, you've changed your tune!

keeping on the table as a bargaining tool is not the same as triggering it ;-)

1 hour ago, oowee said:

No deal seems like the ideal bargaining chip but its like bargaining with a pistol it has no subtlety.  We should be negotiating from a point of shared goals but we can't do that as the Government has no shared goals. A poorly thought out referendum, without defined objectives and goals. Is it any wonder we are where we are. 

The referendum was indeed not thought out and whilst the shambles in parliament has weakened our overall position the EU were never going to play ball with us on this, never.

[oowee]

11 minutes ago, JRDS said:

 

The EU has absolutely no shared goals with us, we are a cash cow and a dumping ground for their unemployed end off.  They blatantly hold us in total disdain.

Your right the EU has no shared goals with us as we have no goals. Dumping ground for their unemployed? What planets that? It's hard to have respect for a country that has no clarity of thinking.

9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

keeping on the table as a bargaining tool is not the same as triggering it 😉

The referendum was indeed not thought out and whilst the shambles in parliament has weakened our overall position the EU were never going to play ball with us on this, never.

Not a matter of playing ball but illustrating a compelling argument. 

[JRDS]

21 minutes ago, oowee said:

Your right the EU has no shared goals with us as we have no goals. Dumping ground for their unemployed? What planets that? It's hard to have respect for a country that has no clarity of thinking. 

Not a matter of playing ball but illustrating a compelling argument. 

Their Goals of control over the 27's Taxation & VAT, an EU Super state and Army.  No thanks, we voted out with clarity of thinking.  We have absolutely no respect for their arrogant high handed attitude. 

The bulk of the UK population's Goal is to Leave irrespective of what our House of Traitors desire.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Henning Vane is brilliant on Question Time tonight!

 

[Mice!]

Ok question for the remainers who think us leaving is such a bad idea, why do all these people walk across Europe, pay vast sums to be smuggled into Britain or buy some dingy and try to cross the channel, if Europe is working why not stay there? The weather is generally better but other than that??