Brexit - merged threads

[Vince Green]

5 minutes ago, henry d said:

Don't forget hotels and restaurant staff, cleaning and the fact that they usually have more than one job, as many local people here won't do those jobs, particularly farming

Brexit wont reduce the jobs, it will only affect the ease with which Europeans can come in to work. Applying for a work visa isn't all that difficult, I can't see what all the fuss is about..  

[Raja Clavata]

5 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I know where your coming from r.e the lies, the problem is, brexit has now become bigger than if we leave the EU or not, because if they refuse to deliver on the promises they made before the referendum, I.e we'd fully leave the EU and its rules, I believe the damage it will cause this country will be far worse and last longer than even the worst economic assessment of a "hard" brexit. I'm almost starting to wish the country had voted to stay, as I don't believe they'll let us leave and I think they've drastically under estimated the anger and long term fall out their betrayal will cause. I know we can both agree on this, the whole process has become a complete mess!

Absolutely, it's an unmitigated disaster. I've held the belief all along that we would not actually leave whilst having no idea how that would come to be. To be honest I don't think anyone still knows how or when this will all end. Parliament seem so hell bent against no deal that I just can't see that happening, revocation of article 50 looks unlikely but who knows what will happen if by the 10th April we don't have a way forward and the EU does not agree to an extension; and of course there is still a possibility that TM will find a way to weasel her deal through.

1 hour ago, sportsbob said:

Sounds like a fair description of Jeremy Corbyn. 😀

And let's face it he doesn't even do a particularly convincing version of angry does he...

[Raja Clavata]

2 minutes ago, walshie said:

It's actually one of the classic remain "arguments" if you like. To me it's just clutching at straws as to why they didn't get their own way. 

Fred Bloggs (70) has a voting card. Jayden Jones (20) has a voting card. Their votes are equally viable. They each count for one vote, regardless of how old they are. 

Remainers wouldn't dare shout out "Those blacks ruined the vote", "Those muslims messed it up for us", "Those women don't know what they're talking about", so why is it ok to bleat about "Those old people spoiled it for us."?

As no-one asked me or anyone I know how they voted, I don't know where they come up with the figures. I'm sure if all the data was available it might show a large number of blonde people voted remain whereas dark haired people voted leave, or vice-versa, People with big noses voted remain, people with big ears voted leave.

You can manipulate data till the cows come home, but it won't change the result, whether you like it or not.. (That's a general "you" not a personal one.) 

Part of the problem we have now is that despite a plethora of data being available the prevalence of fake news and skewed / slanted figures make it legitimate to refute anything and everything. It's sad given the fact that the information age should be a mechanism to to unite us all in our thinking through availability of data but it is instead being used as a wedge to divide us.

Going back top the original point, if the notion that older people tended more towards leave than the young is rejected off hand then there is nothing to discuss but it was pretty evident from the coverage on Friday that the majority of people shown protesting for Brexit were at or around retirement age. If that is indicative then I think the point that people who have secured their futures through pensions have less to lose than those just starting out or mid career.

[Lloyd90]

31 minutes ago, henry d said:

Don't forget hotels and restaurant staff, cleaning and the fact that they usually have more than one job, as many local people here won't do those jobs, particularly farming

That’s a big issue for me. You have to ask who benefits from the influx of cheap foreign labour forces. 

If a job cant be filled you need to up the pay/attractiveness of that job, it drives up wages. 

When you can import foreign workers who will not only work for the low wages, but many who will work for less than min wage, won’t take breaks, stay late for no pay etc, that doesn’t help anyone, it drives wages down and puts people (who rightfully) want their protected rights as a worker out of jobs. 

 

Who benefits from the importation of cheap foreign labour? Big business people /industrialists. 

People will say ‘oh we benefit from experiencing new culture, diversity, new skills etc etc’ but the big companies are the real winners making loads of money exploiting those people with poor pay and conditions. 

[walshie]

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Going back top the original point, if the notion that older people tended more towards leave than the young is rejected off hand then there is nothing to discuss but it was pretty evident from the coverage on Friday that the majority of people shown protesting for Brexit were at or around retirement age. If that is indicative then I think the point that people who have secured their futures through pensions have less to lose than those just starting out or mid career.

I didn't study them that closely, but I'll take your word for it. Does the fact highlighted above mean people at or around retirement age are more likely to have voted leave, or more likely to have the time off to go to the protest due to being retired? I can't see how a conclusion can be drawn from that.

I voted leave and I'm nowhere near retirement age, so I have to work. Does my absence from the protest prove that I voted remain, or simply that I was working? As said above data can be manipulated to suit, but inaccurate or unverifiable data is clutching at straws. 

[Raja Clavata]

No the only real point is that the data suggests that older people tended to vote leave, the coverage I saw showed a higher percentage of older protesters so it supports the data.

It says nothing about you individually and like you said by default you'd be at work on a Friday afternoon (and presumably a fair way from London).

[WestonSalop]

3 minutes ago, walshie said:

I didn't study them that closely, but I'll take your word for it. Does the fact highlighted above mean people at or around retirement age are more likely to have voted leave, or more likely to have the time off to go to the protest due to being retired? I can't see how a conclusion can be drawn from that.

I voted leave and I'm nowhere near retirement age, so I have to work. Does my absence from the protest prove that I voted remain, or simply that I was working? As said above data can be manipulated to suit, but inaccurate or unverifiable data is clutching at straws. 

Walshie is correct. Of course the reason people of working age weren't particularly noticeable was that they were working - it was a week day!

If this is the way in which the "young" demonstrate their intelligence, then god help the world after us lot pop our clogs.

[walshie]

Just now, Raja Clavata said:

No the only real point is that the data suggests that older people tended to vote leave, the coverage I saw showed a higher percentage of older protesters so it supports the data.

It says nothing about you individually and like you said by default you'd be at work on a Friday afternoon (and presumably a fair way from London).

I didn't actually mean me individually, I just meant the oldies at the protest is indeed indicative of the way they voted, and also they are likely to be free on a Friday pm. NOT being there doesn't prove or disprove the opposite.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, WestonSalop said:

Walshie is correct. Of course the reason people of working age weren't particularly noticeable was that they were working - it was a week day!

If this is the way in which the "young" demonstrate their intelligence, then god help the world after us lot pop our clogs.

On something as important as this? People suggesting a break down of society if Democracy is subverted can't take an afternoon off to go and show their support and strength of feeling to try and prevent said miscarriage of democracy from occuring?

[sportsbob]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

On something as important as this? People suggesting a break down of society if Democracy is subverted can't take an afternoon off to go and show their support and strength of feeling to try and prevent said miscarriage of democracy from occuring?

Perhaps they have to go yo work because they need the money and the expense of taking a day off and the cost of the return journey to London with all its entrapment's is a significant slice out of a weeks pay which they simply cant afford.

[WestonSalop]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

On something as important as this? People suggesting a break down of society if Democracy is subverted can't take an afternoon off to go and show their support and strength of feeling to try and prevent said miscarriage of democracy from occuring?

Unless you live in the Home Counties (fortunately, I don't) then its a damn sight more than an afternoon off. And in any event, there's scant evidence that anyone in government is taking the lightest bit of notice of demo's of any persuasion. Anyone who believes we have a "voice" other than via the ballot box is deluded. The Establishment rules. Literally.

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, WestonSalop said:

Unless you live in the Home Counties (fortunately, I don't) then its a damn sight more than an afternoon off.

For me, 100 miles outside London, a day there is a whole (and long) day - and a minimum of £50-60 using the cheapest possible rail travel, parking at station etc.  Last time I went on a demo in London was the anti Hunting Ban Countryside March back in Blairs time.  It was a very long and tiring day.

[oowee]

30 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

That’s a big issue for me. You have to ask who benefits from the influx of cheap foreign labour forces. 

If a job cant be filled you need to up the pay/attractiveness of that job, it drives up wages. 

When you can import foreign workers who will not only work for the low wages, but many who will work for less than min wage, won’t take breaks, stay late for no pay etc, that doesn’t help anyone, it drives wages down and puts people (who rightfully) want their protected rights as a worker out of jobs. 

 

Who benefits from the importation of cheap foreign labour? Big business people /industrialists. 

People will say ‘oh we benefit from experiencing new culture, diversity, new skills etc etc’ but the big companies are the real winners making loads of money exploiting those people with poor pay and conditions. 

What your talking about is the illegal exploitation of workers. Why does it matter if they are from Europe today or India tomorrow or from the UK. It is illegal and nothing to do with the workers. If that is happening (and i have not seen any substantive evidence then take action against the employer the cause not the symptom. 

 

 

Cabinet is in a long session this morning. The best way to break the deadlock of this ill thought out and ambiguous referendum is put it back for a vote. Leave or stay and if its leave Mays deal or no deal. 

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

For me, 100 miles outside London, a day there is a whole (and long) day - and a minimum of £50-60 using the cheapest possible rail travel, parking at station etc.  Last time I went on a demo in London was the anti Hunting Ban Countryside March back in Blairs time.  It was a very long and tiring day.

If it's worth doing. 

[Scully]

40 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

That’s a big issue for me. You have to ask who benefits from the influx of cheap foreign labour forces. 

If a job cant be filled you need to up the pay/attractiveness of that job, it drives up wages. 

When you can import foreign workers who will not only work for the low wages, but many who will work for less than min wage, won’t take breaks, stay late for no pay etc, that doesn’t help anyone, it drives wages down and puts people (who rightfully) want their protected rights as a worker out of jobs. 

 

Who benefits from the importation of cheap foreign labour? Big business people /industrialists. 

People will say ‘oh we benefit from experiencing new culture, diversity, new skills etc etc’ but the big companies are the real winners making loads of money exploiting those people with poor pay and conditions. 

Yep. Why work for minimum wage ( whether it consists of two or three jobs, or more ) if it won’t pay your mortgage or rent? 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, walshie said:

It's actually one of the classic remain "arguments" if you like. To me it's just clutching at straws as to why they didn't get their own way. 

Fred Bloggs (70) has a voting card. Jayden Jones (20) has a voting card. Their votes are equally viable. They each count for one vote, regardless of how old they are. 

Remainers wouldn't dare shout out "Those blacks ruined the vote", "Those muslims messed it up for us", "Those women don't know what they're talking about", so why is it ok to bleat about "Those old people spoiled it for us."?

As no-one asked me or anyone I know how they voted, I don't know where they come up with the figures. I'm sure if all the data was available it might show a large number of blonde people voted remain whereas dark haired people voted leave, or vice-versa, People with big noses voted remain, people with big ears voted leave.

You can manipulate data till the cows come home, but it won't change the result, whether you like it or not.. (That's a general "you" not a personal one.) 

You are spot on Sir.
At what point does a citizens vote become un viable , shall we say 60 ? Well its pointless them voting isnt it ? Theyre not going to be around much longer are they, in fact why dont we have mandatory euthanasia at 50, keep the population down Logans Run style ?
It would certainly thin Parliament down a bit wouldnt it ?

 

9 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

However, it's difficult to ignore the apparent fact that the age demographic of the people shown in the news coverage of the pro-Brexit protesters on Friday appeared, in general, to be towards the "older" end of the spectrum. I don't know if it's representative although the data I've seen published suggests people over 60 are more biased towards Leave than Remain.

Have a look at this video from Youtube.

Now we could say that the average age there is what ? 40, 50, 60 ?

Again, is that so old that your vote shouldnt count ?
Anyone would think , if you listened to remoaners, that the average age of a leave voter is somewhere between 70 and dead !
But its not, its a myth.
If we have to give more weight to 'younger' voters, say between 18 and 25 , the ones that have just come out of our lefty dominated education system, with less world knowledge and life experience of the 'older' generation, then god help us.
It comes back to the same old boring adage of 'You are too thick, racist, or just plain old senile to know what you were voting for'
The best bit is that the people spouting this rubbish are from the 'old' demographic.
With age comes wisdom, there is nothing more true.

[Scully]

22 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

On something as important as this? People suggesting a break down of society if Democracy is subverted can't take an afternoon off to go and show their support and strength of feeling to try and prevent said miscarriage of democracy from occuring?

That’s stretching it a bit to be honest. 

I voted to leave in the referendum, but despite what I may feel about democracy etc I’m not about to take the day off work, travel down to London from Cumbria and back for a protest which carries absolutely no weight or significance. Nor have I taken the lazy option of signing the e-petition in support of a no deal Brexit. Both gestures are absolutely meaningless. 

[hedge]

The easy option is for the MP's is to have a 2nd public vote. They can then slope their shoulders of all responsibility.

Public vote `stay` and the MP's say `the people have spoken` and democracy at work etc etc. Revoke A.50. Simples. Go back to boring debates in the House and nice salaries.

Then gloss over the  largest steaming pile of political turdness ever, forgive and forget and it never happended.

I know TM has made a pigs ear of it but Parliament asked to have a say and they can't argeee on anything either. It's a political shambles/embarassment.

For me - the only option that delivers on a full EU exit is no deal. 

Personally - I'll take a no deal Brexit as everything else is a compromise and not what was voted for.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

You are spot on Sir.
At what point does a citizens vote become un viable , shall we say 60 ? Well its pointless them voting isnt it ? Theyre not going to be around much longer are they, in fact why dont we have mandatory euthanasia at 50, keep the population down Logans Run style ?
It would certainly thin Parliament down a bit wouldnt it ?

 

Have a look at this video from Youtube.

Now we could say that the average age there is what ? 40, 50, 60 ?

Again, is that so old that your vote shouldnt count ?
Anyone would think , if you listened to remoaners, that the average age of a leave voter is somewhere between 70 and dead !
But its not, its a myth.
If we have to give more weight to 'younger' voters, say between 18 and 25 , the ones that have just come out of our lefty dominated education system, with less world knowledge and life experience of the 'older' generation, then god help us.
It comes back to the same old boring adage of 'You are too thick, racist, or just plain old senile to know what you were voting for'
The best bit is that the people spouting this rubbish are from the 'old' demographic.
With age comes wisdom, there is nothing more true.

No it doesn't. You jump to conclusions and invalid assertions all too readily here. It's about trying to understand what would make older voters more likely to vote leave.

 

[Scully]

12 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

 

 

Cabinet is in a long session this morning. The best way to break the deadlock of this ill thought out and ambiguous referendum is put it back for a vote. Leave or stay and if its leave Mays deal or no deal. 

 

Again, you’re attempting to subvert and overturn a democratic vote! What is it about remainers that they find so hard to understand! You’re acting like spoilt children for crying out loud! It’s ridiculous! 

IF there is another vote it can only be on which terms we leave, eg Mays deal, deal no deal or whatever. We cannot have another leave or remain vote; that vote has already been taken. We chose to leave. 

[Rewulf]

Just now, Raja Clavata said:

No it doesn't. You jump to conclusions and invalid assertions all too readily here. It's about trying to understand what would make older voters more likely to vote leave.

Ill make it realy easy for you, its because they have more sense !

More experience of life.

They arent full of drugs, booze and spend half their time trying to 'get lucky'

They havent had the 'benefit' of our left wing schools and unis.

They can remember when people respected one another AND the older generation.

They arent influenced by some eejit on Facbook , instagram or Twitter .

Need I go on ?

[Raja Clavata]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

That’s stretching it a bit to be honest. 

I voted to leave in the referendum, but despite what I may feel about democracy etc I’m not about to take the day off work, travel down to London from Cumbria and back for a protest which carries absolutely no weight or significance. Nor have I taken the lazy option of signing the e-petition in support of a no deal Brexit. Both gestures are absolutely meaningless. 

I see so between now and the next GE the only course of action is to vent on internet forums?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Interesting that Raja Clavata accuses others of jumping to conclusions!

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

I see so between now and the next GE the only course of action is to vent on internet forums?

Isnt that what they are for ?

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Interesting that Raja Clavata accuses others of jumping to conclusions!

Indeed.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

Again, you’re attempting to subvert and overturn a democratic vote! What is it about remainers that they find so hard to understand! You’re acting like spoilt children for crying out loud! It’s ridiculous! 

IF there is another vote it can only be on which terms we leave, eg Mays deal, deal no deal or whatever. We cannot have another leave or remain vote; that vote has already been taken. We chose to leave. 

No reason why it has to be. The original proposition was fundamentally flawed in its ambiguous wording, Illegal levels of funding, lies and insufficient information. Evidence is the last three year of Tory chaos. Answer to break the deadlock a properly structured vote. Sorted. 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Ill make it realy easy for you, its because they have more sense !

More experience of life.

They arent full of drugs, booze and spend half their time trying to 'get lucky'

They havent had the 'benefit' of our left wing schools and unis.

They can remember when people respected one another AND the older generation.

They arent influenced by some eejit on Facbook , instagram or Twitter .

Need I go on ?

Please do, this could turn into a classic (no pun intended)

Just now, Rewulf said:

Isnt that what they are for ?

Indeed.

 

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Interesting that Raja Clavata accuses others of jumping to conclusions!

Pray tell learned ones what conclusions Raja is jumping to?