Brexit - merged threads

[hedge]

13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

No it doesn't. You jump to conclusions and invalid assertions all too readily here. It's about trying to understand what would make older voters more likely to vote leave.

 

Didn't you do that when talking about demographics? More 60+ voted to leave and here they are on TV outside Parliament on a weekday, so it must be true....

 

20 minutes ago, Scully said:

That’s stretching it a bit to be honest. 

I voted to leave in the referendum, but despite what I may feel about democracy etc I’m not about to take the day off work, travel down to London from Cumbria and back for a protest which carries absolutely no weight or significance. Nor have I taken the lazy option of signing the e-petition in support of a no deal Brexit. Both gestures are absolutely meaningless. 

Totally agree. 

 

Also - if 60+ voters should be ignored, can we ignore all 18-20 year olds as well? Personally, I don't think they know their **** from their elbow and are not `wordly` enough to make such important decisions. They just believe what they get told on Twitter or Instagram. Corbyn bribed them with free tuition fees and I'm pretty sure I can get most of them to vote Brexit if I offered a Greggs steak bake and pint of snakey B.

Or am i jumping to conclusions?

 

 

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Ill make it realy easy for you, its because they have more sense !

More experience of life.

They arent full of drugs, booze and spend half their time trying to 'get lucky'

They havent had the 'benefit' of our left wing schools and unis.

They can remember when people respected one another AND the older generation.

They arent influenced by some eejit on Facbook , instagram or Twitter .

Need I go on ?

🙄

[Rewulf]

Just now, Raja Clavata said:

Please do, this could turn into a classic (no pun intended)

How about , most of us have lived all our adult life under the wonderful institution that is the EU?

Watched it morph from a simple trade agreement into the beginnings of a harsh , overpowering, totalitarian regime, dominated by Germany.

The experience of watching this transformation is enough to convince entirely on its own , we need to go, NOW.

1 minute ago, oowee said:

🙄

Which bit is the funniest, dont forget , your opinion doesnt count , youre TOO OLD 😄

4 minutes ago, hedge said:

Or am i jumping to conclusions?

I would say a Spoons 10 % off voucher to all 18- 20 year old would secure their vote for just about anything !

[Gordon R]

The claim that older people voted for "leave" and the younger people voted for "remain" is a valid one. It is easy to ridicule the idea, albeit it is not fact based and just plucked out of thin air. It is just as valid as the assertion that many "leave" voters would now vote to remain.

Where do people get these ideas from? A therapy group at a Priory Clinic? A one minute YouTube clip - extrapolated across the UK? A hospital ward, whilst recovering from a bang on the head?

It is infantile thinking.

[Raja Clavata]

I was not asserting any proof or conclusion, others seem to have raced ahead and done that for me. I'm interested in understanding the age aspect of the votes as well as other things like the concentration of remain votes around universities but they are thorny issues and perhaps it's not possible to discuss it meaningfully here.

 

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Pray tell learned ones what conclusions Raja is jumping to?

Id re read the last couple of pages, I think youve forgotten what youve said TBH.

Im out for a bit, us oldies have to work, to make the world a better place for the 'young'

[oowee]

8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

How about , most of us have lived all our adult life under the wonderful institution that is the EU?

Watched it morph from a simple trade agreement into the beginnings of a harsh , overpowering, totalitarian regime, dominated by Germany.

The experience of watching this transformation is enough to convince entirely on its own , we need to go, NOW.

Which bit is the funniest, dont forget , your opinion doesnt count , youre TOO OLD 😄

I dont fall into that bracket cheeky *** 🙂 

The statement that they are uneducated. Then the bit about the past was always better which is an argument that has been the same for the last 2000 years. You missed the bit about our fathers fought for this. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by oowee

[oowee]

6 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

The claim that older people voted for "leave" and the younger people voted for "remain" is a valid one. It is easy to ridicule the idea, albeit it is not fact based and just plucked out of thin air. It is just as valid as the assertion that many "leave" voters would now vote to remain.

Where do people get these ideas from? A therapy group at a Priory Clinic? A one minute YouTube clip - extrapolated across the UK? A hospital ward, whilst recovering from a bang on the head?

It is infantile thinking.

Far from infantile it is a considered opinion based on polled evidence.

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

I dont fall into that bracket cheeky *** 🙂 

Over 50 = OLD !

 

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

The statement that they are uneducated.

Sarcasm

 

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

Then the bit about the past was always better which is an argument that has been the same for the last 2000 years

Quote me where I said that ?

 

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

You missed the bit about our fathers fought for this

Because mine didnt, and you have to be 70 odd these days for your Mother or Father to have fought in WW2 .
If we start talking about Grandfathers fighting then yes, but its not an argument thats often used, because generally people with RESPECT for their ancestors arent crass enough to use it.

1 minute ago, oowee said:

Far from infantile it is a considered opinion based on polled evidence.

Heres your 'evidence 😆

Conclusion

That’s a reasonable estimate for how many 18-24 year old voters voted Remain in the 2016 EU referendum, based on the results of polls and surveys. There are no official figures, so it’s impossible to say exactly what the true figure is.

[Scully]

20 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I see so between now and the next GE the only course of action is to vent on internet forums?

Eh? 😀

You can vent by any means you choose, but it’s all meaningless. Do you honestly believe a march through London or climbing onto the roof of St Pancras station is going to influence anything? Come on, really? 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Id re read the last couple of pages, I think youve forgotten what youve said TBH.

Im out for a bit, us oldies have to work, to make the world a better place for the 'young'

I just re-read them too, my conclusion is that my memory is not failing me.

I have to work too, one parting thought that just sprung to mind is this, I forget who it originates from but goes along the lines of :

In times of change the learners will inherit the earth whereas the learned will find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, Raja Clavata said:

I just re-read them too, my conclusion is that my memory is not failing me.

I have to work too, one parting thought that just sprung to mind is this, I forget who it originates from but goes along the lines of :

In times of change the learners will inherit the earth whereas the learned will find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

It is those of us that have learned how bad the EU is that decided to change!

[Scully]

21 minutes ago, oowee said:

No reason why it has to be. The original proposition was fundamentally flawed in its ambiguous wording, Illegal levels of funding, lies and insufficient information. Evidence is the last three year of Tory chaos. Answer to break the deadlock a properly structured vote. Sorted. 

😂 Round and round and round we go....again. Next you’ll be telling us we didn’t know what we were voting for. 

What on Earth is ambiguous about ‘leave’ or ‘remain’? Remainers clutching at straws....again. 

[hedge]

16 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I was not asserting any proof or conclusion, others seem to have raced ahead and done that for me. I'm interested in understanding the age aspect of the votes as well as other things like the concentration of remain votes around universities but they are thorny issues and perhaps it's not possible to discuss it meaningfully here.

 

Raja - I don't think anyone has an issue with a healthy debate and will respect others opinions.

Your views/observations seemed to be that more 60+ probably voted remain (and probably did) but substantiated it with a video of older folk outsdie Parliament and that proved the theory. I think people took issue that you were justifying your views with what were perceived as marginal facts.

Statistics can be manipulated to fit most events and it appeared that was what you were doing. Taking the bits that suited the arguement and ignore the rest (that's me generalising how statistics get used, it's not a pop at you).

My take on it. Older people remember life pre-EU, it wasn't all doom and gloom and we can function outside of the EU. Is it a bit sentimental? Possibly? Old fashioned? Maybe. I have no proof or statistics to prove that. It's just my view.

The younger age bracket only know life in the EU. They have no reason to doubt it or see life outside of it. They do not know life without mobile phones, the internet. satellite TV, games consoles, Starbucks etc. Why would they want to leave when they've never known life without it? I work with people who didn't know that the internet was relatively new, or that we used faxes back in the day. Again - that's an opinion and I offer no hard evidence.

I'm not saying that 18-20's are stupid, but just don't know any different.

Edited April 2, 2019 by hedge

[JohnfromUK]

The young/old difference in votes is interesting.  I am 'old' at 62, but like all of us 'olds' I was once young, so I have had the benefit of both age groups - and everything in between. 

Most of my age group would agree that they have 'grown in wisdom' through their lives.  Some have changed political views, some have not.  Interestingly, of those who have changed (that I know anyway), almost all have moved 'to the right'.  I was always a moderate 'right' in that I believe in individual freedom, choice and reward for success and ambition - and disagree strongly with state control, but temper that with believing in a civilised society where the sick, elderly, disabled are supported.  I do not believe in supporting idleness and laziness.  In addition, one of the things we have learned over the years is to neither believe nor trust politicians and government.

The young have a lot to learn, but IF we finally shed the EU shackles, the old will see the short term pain for a significant part of their remaining days ......... but the young will reap the benefits of the additional freedoms gained for much of their lives (assuming they are not stupid enough to rejoin!)

[oowee]

Just now, Scully said:

😂 Round and round and round we go....again. Next you’ll be telling us we didn’t know what we were voting for. 

What on Earth is ambiguous about ‘leave’ or ‘remain’? Remainers clutching at straws....again. 

Norway, Iceland, Canada, Canada + or ++ no deal, Mays deal they are all version of out. There is no point being in denial there are different versions of out any one of which is out. That is ambiguous. Quitters trying to justify the intangible decision to quit. 

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

The young/old difference in votes is interesting.  I am 'old' at 62, but like all of us 'olds' I was once young, so I have had the benefit of both age groups - and everything in between. 

Most of my age group would agree that they have 'grown in wisdom' through their lives.  Some have changed political views, some have not.  Interestingly, of those who have changed (that I know anyway), almost all have moved 'to the right'.  I was always a moderate 'right' in that I believe in individual freedom, choice and reward for success and ambition - and disagree strongly with state control, but temper that with believing in a civilised society where the sick, elderly, disabled are supported.  I do not believe in supporting idleness and laziness.  In addition, one of the things we have learned over the years is to neither believe nor trust politicians and government.

The young have a lot to learn, but IF we finally shed the EU shackles, the old will see the short term pain for a significant part of their remaining days ......... but the young will reap the benefits of the additional freedoms gained for much of their lives (assuming they are not stupid enough to rejoin!)

John what this? The young would say they are adults and know more about the new world than the old with old experience. They might say that the old just do not understand how times have changed and that the speed with which the world is moving and the way that it is connected. 

We cannot say that one part of society knows best its together that we get a considered vote. 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Norway, Iceland, Canada, Canada + or ++ no deal, Mays deal they are all version of out.

All versions of BRINO actually, except for Canada ++ which ,Ive said before COULD be a fallback position while we negotiate something more sensible (for us)

The EU wont go for it of course, they want Mays deal, and who could blame them, its perfect for THEM.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, hedge said:

Raja - I don't think anyone has an issue with a healthy debate and will respect others opinions.

Your views/observations seemed to be that more 60+ probably voted remain (and probably did) but substantiated it with a video of older folk outsdie Parliament and that proved the theory. I think people took issue that you were justifying your views with what were perceived as marginal facts.

Statistics can be manipulated to fit most events and it appeared that was what you were doing. Taking that bits that suited the arguement and ignore the rest (that's me generalising how statistics get used, it's not a pop at you).

My take on it. Older people remember life pre-EU, it wasn't all doom and gloom and we can function outside of the EU. Is it a bit sentimental? Possibly? Old fashioned? Maybe. I have no proof or statistics to prove that. It's just my view.

The younger age bracket only know life in the EU. They have no reason to doubt it or see life outside of it. They do not know life without mobile phones, the internet. satellite TV, games consoles, Starbucks etc. Why would they want to leave when they've never known life without it? I work with people who didn't know that the internet was relatively new, or that we used faxes back in the day. Again - that's an opinion and I offer no hard evidence.

I'm not saying that 18-20's are stupid, but just don't know any different.

Thank-you for your reply. I didn't mean to imply proof, as proof is a very strong word indeed. I was making assertions to get to a point where something could then be debated. My motive was trying to get to understand why older voters would be more inclined to vote leave. But it's impossible to even get to that point if the assertion is rubbished straight off the bat and / or people jump to a conclusion that what you're really saying is that older votes don't count. That doesn't solve anything.

Spot on about statistics and data; we're now at a point where people can and will argue against anything they do not agree with to the point of utter denial.

Anyway I appreciate the insight you have provided, thanks for sharing.

[Dave-G]

Oldies Vs younguns?

When I was younger I just went with the flow, mildly concious of the fact that older people were taking care of things that I understood nothing about, nor wanted to, but was taught real skills that would put me on the right path for a decent life, and to be proud of our country.

Todays youth arent even allowed to play properly and have been taught little about real life things but plenty of fluff that will do little for their careers but a lot for supporting Europe and bending to the will of other countries morals and cultures. 

 

Now that the official secrets EU plan cat is out of the bag us oldies who have been conned are well peeved at the plotting against us and our country and want to finally do what we would have done if the full plan had been made clear to us.

I suggest PART of our 'out' thoughts are to do with rectifying the wrong done to us and part being mature enough to realise that we are piling more debt onto our children by borrowing money to fund the political elite plan of Europe Union who are asset stripping our country to fund itself first then - poorer countries.

As for 'mainly' older people in that video - I rather suspect more older demonstrators were  retired and able to make the trip than youunger people striving to make a living.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Dave-G

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

My motive was trying to get to understand why older voters would be more inclined to vote leave. But it's impossible to even get to that point if the assertion is rubbished straight off the bat and / or people jump to a conclusion that what you're really saying is that older votes don't count. That doesn't solve anything.

The assertion wasnt rubbished at all, and the only people saying older votes dont count is remainers, you even tried to justify this viewpoint yourself !

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

Don't forget hotels and restaurant staff, cleaning and the fact that they usually have more than one job, as many local people here won't do those jobs, particularly farming

Your probably right, mostly seasonal work where people come over and work damn hard. A lot of the fruit pickers around Arbroath were living in porta cabins on the farms back in 2002/3 and probably still do? So are they paying tax council tax and everything else the rest of us do, very doubtful indeed. This is why the locals won't do the hard work for low pay, overheads.

[Mice!]

21 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Spot on about statistics and data; we're now at a point where people can and will argue against anything they do not agree with to the point of utter denial.

Anyway I appreciate the insight you have provided, thanks for sharing.

Raja, you've tried the age thing before, there might be a larger number of older voters compared with younger voters but its in no way exclusive, plenty of us on here in our 40s voted leave, a lot of younger voters in education may vote remain while the older voters remember what the EU was, a trading group not the ruling party.

[PhilR]

Seeing as the old are being blamed for voting out I'll put my tuppence in, I'm 68 in a couple of months and voted leave. 

Back in 1973 when I was young and wet behind the ears, we only got the vote at 21 then, I voted to join the Common Market because we were led to believe it was for trading purposes and seemed to be the sensible thing to do. It has somewhat changed over the years and got to the stage this country, in my opinion, is haemorrhaging money to prop up an ailing, self serving behemoth. 

On a personal level leaving the EU is going to be a ball ache, I shoot competitively in Europe quite a few times a year and the European Firearms Pass is a godsend for getting guns abroad.  We take our dog with us and the Pet Passport is an absolute boon too.  Going back to the pre EFP and PP days is going to make my life more difficult, but for the greater good I think we should be out on a hard Brexit, ignoring the May plan.  Failing that stay in and have a modicum of control over our destiny.

Two things I never normally do is discuss politics or religion so this is the only post I'll make.  

[islandgun]

Its looking like another referendum to me,  her own party will push TM out, corbyn will demand a GE on the back of another vote, the cons will instigate a second referendum to stay in power.. .........possibly !

[TIGHTCHOKE]

34 minutes ago, PhilR said:

Seeing as the old are being blamed for voting out I'll put my tuppence in, I'm 68 in a couple of months and voted leave. 

Back in 1973 when I was young and wet behind the ears, we only got the vote at 21 then, I voted to join the Common Market because we were led to believe it was for trading purposes and seemed to be the sensible thing to do. It has somewhat changed over the years and got to the stage this country, in my opinion, is haemorrhaging money to prop up an ailing, self serving behemoth. 

On a personal level leaving the EU is going to be a ball ache, I shoot competitively in Europe quite a few times a year and the European Firearms Pass is a godsend for getting guns abroad.  We take our dog with us and the Pet Passport is an absolute boon too.  Going back to the pre EFP and PP days is going to make my life more difficult, but for the greater good I think we should be out on a hard Brexit, ignoring the May plan.  Failing that stay in and have a modicum of control over our destiny.

Two things I never normally do is discuss politics or religion so this is the only post I'll make.  

That puts it over very well

1 minute ago, islandgun said:

Its looking like another referendum to me,  her own party will push TM out, corbyn will demand a GE on the back of another vote, the cons will instigate a second referendum to stay in power.. .........possibly !

But what if they do initiate another referendum;

1. What would the wording be so as to be FAIR?

2. What happens if the same result came out? No change no improvement in carrying out the will of the majority.

3. So many people will feel cheated as democracy will indeed be dead.