Brexit - merged threads

[Rewulf]

11 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Give what some thought, I genuinely have no idea where roughly half of what you posted above comes from...

Sigh* Round and round we go.

 

11 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

' If it were possible, and I don't believe it is, I would like to see the current trajectory we appear to be on halted.'

 

11 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

For the record, and not for the first time, I don't believe we are going to leave the EU!

You dont see a contradiction in those 2 related statements ?

 

11 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

This is only a contradiction in your view, maybe, I really don't follow your logic or line of reasoning most of the time, allow me to try to explain...

This is quite a telling statement.
You obviously wont admit that sometimes you contradict yourself, so its always going to be a contradiction 'in my view'
Naturally you dont follow my line of reasoning, you dont WANT to, which is strange because everybody else does even if they dont agree with what Im saying, and I dont just mean on here, no one struggles to understand me out in the 'real world' or is that my 'superiority complex' ?

 

11 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Fundamentally you asked me what I want, you did not ask me to propose a solution.

Another weird retort, I asked you what you wanted to see happen, what you would like ?
If that doesnt involve some kind of theory on a solution, how else would you answer the question ?
The question I might add you seem reluctant to answer besides 'I want it to stop !' When I and anyone with half a brain in this country surely realise, it cant be 'stopped' without literally wrecking the country in the process, and even then , from the wreckage , Brexit will still happen, because you will have created such discontent that only that will suffice.
This is already happening in front of your eyes, the Brexit party wouldnt even exist if we had left on WTO on 29/3, that is undeniable is it not ?
Now with labour and tory squirming and misdirection, you have created a new right wing party with a possible voter base that could produce a majority government we havent seen for decades.
And they will produce Brexit, as hard as you like.

 

11 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Where on earth did this come from? I can accept you labeling me as remainer, but loving the EU at all, let alone that much, genuinely lost...

Please point out the bit where I said you love the EU.

 

11 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Let me repeat for the umpteenth time, being Anti-Brexit does not make you pro-EU, I mean, seriously!

Never said you were pro EU either, I believe you are a remainer for your own personal/financial reasons, I dont have a problem with that.

 

11 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

No idea, ask a lefty, all the analysers I've ever tried return a centrist or centre right profile (actually, maybe one was centre left a while ago)

Which is probably why you are so confused about where you are , and what you want.
But thats OK too 😄

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Teal said:

Those percentages are what the polls suggest but it all depends on the desire to actually pop something in the ballot box Thursday that will reveal the results.

I think the motivation to see Brexit delivered figures highly.
Im not sure if my circle of friends are particularly unusual , but not many of them didnt vote for the BP.
It seemed to be what most people at the polls were talking about.

 

11 minutes ago, Teal said:

If one party really mobilised their vote or their voters felt much more inclined the results could differ very significantly from the polls. It's an unusual one.

I think Farages campaign was fairly well done , not too 'in your face'  plus it was fairly represent in the media.

 

12 minutes ago, Teal said:

In good faith I couldn't vote for any of them. Voting for the party I least dislike is hardly a positive. I wanted to register my discontent, and I crossed through my ballot in the booth. 

Obviously its up to you, but I dont believe anyone in establishment is bothered about spoiled votes.
If I was in your position, I would be inclined to put my x in the box that would support the continuation of private firearms ownership and country pursuits.
Which would obviously negate certain left wing parties.

[JohnfromUK]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im not sure if my circle of friends are particularly unusual , but not many of them didnt vote for the BP.
It seemed to be what most people at the polls were talking about.

That would also be my experience.  However, I believe the turnout may prove to be very low.

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I would be inclined to put my x in the box that would support the continuation of private firearms ownership and country pursuits.

Agreed 100%.  Some parties will, given the chance, change this country (and especially the 'country' as opposed to 'city/town') dramatically - and not for the better.

Also - if we do manage to achieve Brexit, we will need friends in the trading world.  Especially the USA.  There is no way the USA, who have always and will continue to support Israel and be 'against' regimes like Palestine, Venezuela, Iran, North Korea will do a deal with us if we have an anti semitic anti Israel, pro Venezeula, pro Hamas government in the UK.  I believe with Brexit happened, in a few years we can be a major trader, doing well and prospering with low unemployment, strong economy investment in us from overseas and respected again on the world stage.

However, if we turn to the left and ignore the opinions of our trading partners and allies, and are anti Israel, protectionist, high taxation etc., we will see (rapidly) rising unemployment, a weak economy and weak pound, collapse in investment from overseas, high inflation.  We will ALL suffer, the 'middle' and 'poor' more than the so called 'rich'.  If they are stupid enough to try and nationalise foreign owned interests (as was mooted by McDonnell over Honda) and the large overseas stakes in our infrastructure and economy (there is much overseas investment in the utility companies) - no one will invest here and we will end up bankrupt, unable to borrow and like Venezuela, Corbyn's idea of paradise on earth.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Also - if we do manage to achieve Brexit, we will need friends in the trading world.  Especially the USA.  There is no way the USA, who have always and will continue to support Israel and be 'against' regimes like Palestine, Venezuela, Iran, North Korea will do a deal with us if we have an anti semitic anti Israel, pro Venezeula, pro Hamas government in the UK.  I believe with Brexit happened, in a few years we can be a major trader, doing well and prospering with low unemployment, strong economy investment in us from overseas and respected again on the world stage.

Spot on 

[oowee]

2 hours ago, poontang said:

I think we have to remember that the Brexit Party have only been around for 5/6 weeks, so if they achieve anywhere near what the polling suggests that would be quite some going. Like him or loathe him Farage is very, very good at what he does. His knowledge of the EU institutions and how they function is second to none, and his energy, passion and belief in his cause is palpable. Qualities sadly lacking in so many of those sitting on the benches of Westminster.

Boris is an interesting one. He would certainly have the vote of the Conservative party membership, who are staunchly pro leave, but he still has to get through to the final two candidates. There are quite a few tory MP's who don't like Boris and would happily vote tactically to keep him from getting through. In my opinion a massive mistake and would almost certainly alienate the membership even further. Would he soften? Anyone's guess really but I don't think he could. He's been waiting in the wings for this opportunity his entire political career and this could be his best chance at the top job. He's defined himself as an ardent Eurosceptic so he would have to back that up if in power. He's been pushing for a WTO brexit or a comprehensive FTA so anything other than that and he'll be seen as the same as all the rest in parliament, duplicitous. With Boris, it's all about Boris and he'll be looking to be the strong and stable  leader he thinks he is. It's all about the legacy.

My preferred option would be Dominic Raab.

I would reckon on Raab too as a good choice. Even Gove I reckon would be alright, certainly a worker. 
My guess delivery of brexit policy progress will be as much about consensus building across the party as personal preference for what should happen. 

[figgy]

Tomorrow's results will lead to interesting weeks ahead no matter who comes out on top.

[oldypigeonpopper]

4 hours ago, pinfireman said:

My bet is, very well !

I see that UKIP,s Deputy Leader, Mike Hookem,  is challenging Gerard Batten for the leadership, stating that he is unhappy at the direction Batten has taken the Party. The TR situation alienated many of its members.

hello, who is that chap in UKIP made some nasty comments recently, 

[pinfireman]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

That would also be my experience.  However, I believe the turnout may prove to be very low.

Agreed 100%.  Some parties will, given the chance, change this country (and especially the 'country' as opposed to 'city/town') dramatically - and not for the better.

Also - if we do manage to achieve Brexit, we will need friends in the trading world.  Especially the USA.  There is no way the USA, who have always and will continue to support Israel and be 'against' regimes like Palestine, Venezuela, Iran, North Korea will do a deal with us if we have an anti semitic anti Israel, pro Venezeula, pro Hamas government in the UK.  I believe with Brexit happened, in a few years we can be a major trader, doing well and prospering with low unemployment, strong economy investment in us from overseas and respected again on the world stage.

However, if we turn to the left and ignore the opinions of our trading partners and allies, and are anti Israel, protectionist, high taxation etc., we will see (rapidly) rising unemployment, a weak economy and weak pound, collapse in investment from overseas, high inflation.  We will ALL suffer, the 'middle' and 'poor' more than the so called 'rich'.  If they are stupid enough to try and nationalise foreign owned interests (as was mooted by McDonnell over Honda) and the large overseas stakes in our infrastructure and economy (there is much overseas investment in the utility companies) - no one will invest here and we will end up bankrupt, unable to borrow and like Venezuela, Corbyn's idea of paradise on earth.

An accurate post!

[ditchman]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

I would reckon on Raab too as a good choice. Even Gove I reckon would be alright, certainly a worker. 
My guess delivery of brexit policy progress will be as much about consensus building across the party as personal preference for what should happen. 

the deal is dun an dusted ...they are all stalking horses.......

[oowee]

34 minutes ago, ditchman said:

the deal is dun an dusted ...they are all stalking horses.......

I have a sneaking feeling your right 😞 

[Raja Clavata]

6 hours ago, poontang said:

I think we have to remember that the Brexit Party have only been around for 5/6 weeks, so if they achieve anywhere near what the polling suggests that would be quite some going. Like him or loathe him Farage is very, very good at what he does. His knowledge of the EU institutions and how they function is second to none, and his energy, passion and belief in his cause is palpable. Qualities sadly lacking in so many of those sitting on the benches of Westminster.

Boris is an interesting one. He would certainly have the vote of the Conservative party membership, who are staunchly pro leave, but he still has to get through to the final two candidates. There are quite a few tory MP's who don't like Boris and would happily vote tactically to keep him from getting through. In my opinion a massive mistake and would almost certainly alienate the membership even further. Would he soften? Anyone's guess really but I don't think he could. He's been waiting in the wings for this opportunity his entire political career and this could be his best chance at the top job. He's defined himself as an ardent Eurosceptic so he would have to back that up if in power. He's been pushing for a WTO brexit or a comprehensive FTA so anything other than that and he'll be seen as the same as all the rest in parliament, duplicitous. With Boris, it's all about Boris and he'll be looking to be the strong and stable  leader he thinks he is. It's all about the legacy.

My preferred option would be Dominic Raab.

Fair enough, I am with you on just about all that. Raab is a good call I think and, I guess whilst less popular, Hunt seems OK to me too - although perhaps his position on Brexit would be seen as a risk?. Don't trust Hancock.

[Retsdon]

I want Boris as Prime Minister. Not having any financial skin in the game any more other than my state pension I'm happy to concede everything else to the sheer entertainment value of having a complete clown at the helm during the Brexit storm that will be the most fraught and critical period of foreign policy sailing since, probably, the second world war.

But then? When everything goes t*ts up I'll be there with JRM picking through the wreckage for bargains in the markets. The only difference is that I'll at least have the decency to feel a modicum of remorse when I cash in my profits.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Retsdon

[Raja Clavata]

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Sigh* Round and round we go.

Like I said, I nearly didn't bother

You dont see a contradiction in those 2 related statements ?

No, because the trajectory I was referring to isn't one which leads to Brexit, it's a trajectory that wrecks this country to the core (in the worst case)

This is quite a telling statement.
You obviously wont admit that sometimes you contradict yourself, so its always going to be a contradiction 'in my view'

See above, I admit that I feel a bit conflicted at times but you seem infatuated on trying to highlight contradictions. 

Naturally you dont follow my line of reasoning, you dont WANT to, which is strange because everybody else does even if they dont agree with what Im saying, and I dont just mean on here, no one struggles to understand me out in the 'real world' or is that my 'superiority complex' ?

Again, see above, you continue to argue but you fell at the first with the assertion that my statements were contradictory, they were not, they might well have been based on your assumption of what I meant however. A bit of a touche moment me thinks.

Another weird retort, I asked you what you wanted to see happen, what you would like ?
If that doesnt involve some kind of theory on a solution, how else would you answer the question ?
The question I might add you seem reluctant to answer besides 'I want it to stop !' When I and anyone with half a brain in this country surely realise, it cant be 'stopped' without literally wrecking the country in the process, and even then , from the wreckage , Brexit will still happen, because you will have created such discontent that only that will suffice.

Are we back to this intelligence thing again, so if I don't agree with you I have less than 50% of a brain, OK.
This is already happening in front of your eyes, the Brexit party wouldnt even exist if we had left on WTO on 29/3, that is undeniable is it not ?
Now with labour and tory squirming and misdirection, you have created a new right wing party with a possible voter base that could produce a majority government we havent seen for decades.
And they will produce Brexit, as hard as you like.

I don't see a new right wing party taking power any time soon.

Please point out the bit where I said you love the EU.

Read back what you wrote, you made a comment about remainers loving the EU and took it that you were painting a broad brush - otherwise why would you have mentioned it.

Never said you were pro EU either, I believe you are a remainer for your own personal/financial reasons, I dont have a problem with that.

This feels like another attempt as discrediting of devaluing my view / stance - yes it suits me personally but I also believe it's best for the country particularly people that are not as well positioned as myself. 

Which is probably why you are so confused about where you are , and what you want.
But thats OK too 😄

You just can't help yourself, can you.

To summarise what I said previously. I don't believe we are going to leave the EU but I don't know the precise mechanism by which it will happen (and I might well be wrong) but what concerns me is the damage already done in the process that has got us to where we are today. In the long term who knows which of revoking article 50 vs a clumsy WTO Brexit would be more damaging to the country at the macro level. Of course you have an opinion on this, but that's all it is, an opinion - even if voiced from a position of superiority comfortable that anyone not similarly minded is a half wit. Bravo.

 

17 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

I want Boris as Prime Minister. Not having any financial skin in the game any more other than my state pension I'm happy to concede everything else to the sheer entertainment value of having a complete clown at the helm during the Brexit storm that will be the most fraught and critical period of foreign policy sailing since, probably, the second world war.

But then? When everything goes t*ts up I'll be there with JRM picking through the wreckage for bargains in the markets. The only difference is that I'll at least have the decency to feel a modicum of remorse when I cash in my profits.

I reckon of could have written this for you on your behalf 😛

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

The question I might add you seem reluctant to answer besides 'I want it to stop !' When I and anyone with half a brain in this country surely realise, it cant be 'stopped' without literally wrecking the country in the process, and even then , from the wreckage , Brexit will still happen, because you will have created such discontent that only that will suffice.

Are we back to this intelligence thing again, so if I don't agree with you I have less than 50% of a brain, OK.

Raja, it's a figure of speech man, I didn't insinuate anything of the sort !

 

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Please point out the bit where I said you love the EU.

Read back what you wrote, you made a comment about remainers loving the EU and took it that you were painting a broad brush - otherwise why would you have mentioned it

No Raja ,read back what I wrote, I said do you seriously believe remainers love the Eu?

 

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Never said you were pro EU either, I believe you are a remainer for your own personal/financial reasons, I dont have a problem with that.

This feels like another attempt as discrediting of devaluing my view / stance - yes it suits me personally but I also believe it's best for the country particularly people that are not as well positioned as myself

Why? Can you not see the bit where I said I dont have problem with that? I genuinely dont, it's your choice and I support it !

 

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Which is probably why you are so confused about where you are , and what you want.
But thats OK too 😄

You just can't help yourself, can you.

Have you took offence to that too ? Jesus Christ man ! Smiley face on the end , light hearted comment ?

It IS ok to be confused , you've said so yourself, IT IS OK !

Peace out 

 

[oowee]

3 hours ago, Retsdon said:

I want Boris as Prime Minister. Not having any financial skin in the game any more other than my state pension I'm happy to concede everything else to the sheer entertainment value of having a complete clown at the helm during the Brexit storm that will be the most fraught and critical period of foreign policy sailing since, probably, the second world war.

But then? When everything goes t*ts up I'll be there with JRM picking through the wreckage for bargains in the markets. The only difference is that I'll at least have the decency to feel a modicum of remorse when I cash in my profits.

Already trying to pick through the bargains. Only down side is I am using sterling.

[tandytommo]

10 hours ago, pinfireman said:

Correct!  I suspect Mr Tommoo is a Remoaner Labour supporter........

First thing you've got right in a while  gammon fascist.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, tandytommo said:

First thing you've got right in a while  gammon fascist.

😂😂🤣

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

It IS ok to be confused , you've said so yourself, IT IS OK !

I knew you'd try to distort this, I said conflicted, not confused. I'll not bother trying to explain the confliction.

Peace indeed. No sense of offence or anger either.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Raja Clavata

[toxo]

I think Raab is credible. I like Steve Baker also.

[Savhmr]

Raab is one of the few credible ones in the running imho.  One of the few who stepped down from supporting May in Cabinet when he realised she wouldn't deliver a no deal brexit.  He never changed his mind about supporting her awful deal when others wavered and caved in.  Johnson talked the talk but when put forward last time was like a rabbit caught in the headlights and stepped out of the running.  He's on record as being pro-EU then pro Brexit when things suited him.  Untrustworthy, especially as he's now said that his intention is not a policy of pursuing a "no deal agenda" to appease the remainers in the Tory party.  Leadsome would be better.  As for that slimy toad Gove, he comes across as a treacherous little man and with his Packham and Tony Juniper connections, he won't be a friend to he shooting community.  He can't be trusted as far as you could throw him.  Same goes for Hammond.

I'd far rather see a majority support for Brexit party candidates and see some migration from the Tories over to them.  We need the two party system broken up.  Labour is just the marxist party now and the Tories are New Labour.  They have been since Cameron who modelled himself on Bliar.  The Brexit Party are the new conservatives.  We also need to get away to the devastating austerity under the Tories.  Grendfell was as a direct result of their penny pinching where it mattered not to.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Savhmr

[Gordon R]

Quote

Grendfell was as a direct result of their penny pinching where it mattered not to.

The cladding of tower blocks started under the Blair Government. The Conservatives controlled the council which clad Grenfell Tower, but five blocks in Labour-controlled Camden were also clad with a similar material

No party comes out of the Grenfell tragedy with any credit.

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, Savhmr said:

Grendfell was as a direct result of their penny pinching

Rubbish!

The policy of cladding tower blocks was introduced by the Blair Labour government.

The implementation was done by local authorities, and local authorities, both Tory and Labour used a variety of contractors to carry out the work. Grenfell happens to have been done by a Tory local authority, but sadly, the same tragedy could have occurred at any one of many similarly treated tower blocks.  A number of errors both in design (single fire staircase), updating work (unsuitable cladding, possibly poorly installed) and incident management (failure to evacuate early and advising people to stay put) all contributed to the tragedy.

It was nothing at all to do with 'any 'central government penny pinching'.

[TriBsa]

Johnson? Gove? Raab? Leason? They are all tainted and past their sell by dates. Offering much continuity from May and little improvement. They all sat on their hands as long as possible thinking no doubt of their careers and perks of office. It wasn't just Brexit for me with May, but her whole kowtowing to the globalist migration agenda and PC mindset. Just as they had no right to deny the democratic will of the people over Brexit, they had no right to change this country through mass migration and PC directives. They stole New Labour's clothes with the election of Cameron as leader in 2005 and haven't been conservative since. The party machine has been hijacked and is no longer fit for purpose, throwing out PC on message liberals as party candidates. Unless an untainted (by association with Cameron or May) true conservative comes forward we will just get more of the same, despite all their campaign rhetoric. They are highly unlikely to get my vote again, ever.

Edited May 26, 2019 by TriBsa

[Savhmr]

7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Rubbish!

The policy of cladding tower blocks was introduced by the Blair Labour government.

The implementation was done by local authorities, and local authorities, both Tory and Labour used a variety of contractors to carry out the work. Grenfell happens to have been done by a Tory local authority, but sadly, the same tragedy could have occurred at any one of many similarly treated tower blocks.  A number of errors both in design (single fire staircase), updating work (unsuitable cladding, possibly poorly installed) and incident management (failure to evacuate early and advising people to stay put) all contributed to the tragedy.

It was nothing at all to do with 'any 'central government penny pinching'.

The point was that it was a Tory authority who saw it through.  The buck has to stop somewhere.  I agree though that Labour are also culpable.  Point is generally that there are areas where cuts have been made where they should not have been made and austerity at local council level is affected by central government funding.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Savhmr

[JohnfromUK]

 

1 minute ago, Savhmr said:

The point was that it was a Tory authority who saw it through.  The buck has to stop somewhere.

It could have happened in any local authority area (Labour, Tory, or SNP in Scotland).  As I pointed out there were a number of factors that came together, adding cladding to an old building with only one staircase, policy not to evacuate, contractors using materials not suitable to multi story buildings .......... many factors - and no single 'buck stopping' place.  Like many accidents, multiple hazardous circumstances all came together to result in a tragic accident.  You could have changed any one of the several factors underlined above - and the tragedy would have been avoided or at least made much less severe.  None of these relate to 'devastating austerity under the Tories'.

Blaming it on 'devastating austerity under the Tories' is simply not true.