Brexit - merged threads

[Rewulf]

35 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I agree it's not right but it again comes back to the whole thing being ill-conceived in the first place.

You only think its ill conceived because it wasnt what you wanted.
If there wasnt a huge percentage of the populace interested in leaving , it simply wouldnt have happened.
They wanted to shut Farage and other Eurosceptic elements up once and for all, and their calculations were that remain would win..comfortably.
Thats the only ill conceived part about it, not realising  that leave would win, so not having a real plan, the attempts to fudge it arent working either !

Think about it, whats so important about staying in, that they are prepared to sacrifice their parties , AND their integrity to stop us leaving ?

41 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm not saying all of those things, and I think you know that, but I think there needs to be more than 28% of the population behind leaving with no deal to stand any chance of Parliament allowing it to happen. 

Again, is that grounds to stay ?
Because 'only' 28 % want no deal (bear in mind the media propaganda about how apocalyptic that will be ) then we are forced to stay in the bloc ?
They wont even gives us another (undemocratic) 2nd Ref , because they now know theyll lose that one too 😂

When youre between a rock and a hard place, and you need to move, you need to pick one and move.
They think we ll just get tired and give in, its not happening, all they are doing is creating more distrust and anger = more people thinking no deal is the way forward.

[wyn]

This is an interesting recent report.   When the eurozone goes pear-shaped and we are still in, the UK may be liable for £ 200- 440Bn.  Might as well round it up to £1/2 Trillion.

Edited June 29, 2019 by wyn

[Rewulf]

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/06/28/the-unbelievable-hypocrisy-of-the-remoaner-elite/

[Scully]

Like I’ve said numerous times; there is only one word to describe those who work to thwart and indeed overturn the result of a democratically held vote. 

[Raja Clavata]

On 28/06/2019 at 16:25, Rewulf said:

You only think its ill conceived because it wasnt what you wanted.
If there wasnt a huge percentage of the populace interested in leaving , it simply wouldnt have happened.
They wanted to shut Farage and other Eurosceptic elements up once and for all, and their calculations were that remain would win..comfortably.
Thats the only ill conceived part about it, not realising  that leave would win, so not having a real plan, the attempts to fudge it arent working either !

Ill conceived because of the current mess we are in - I'm sure you didn't want this but what did people seriously expect.

Think about it, whats so important about staying in, that they are prepared to sacrifice their parties , AND their integrity to stop us leaving ?

This works both ways.

Again, is that grounds to stay ?
Because 'only' 28 % want no deal (bear in mind the media propaganda about how apocalyptic that will be ) then we are forced to stay in the bloc ?
They wont even gives us another (undemocratic) 2nd Ref , because they now know theyll lose that one too 😂

But it would put the whole thing to be, surely. I would imagine the 28% are what remains of the ~33% of die hard, Brexit at any cost merchants who do not listen to any anti-Brexit media and are quite possibly hardened in their views by it.

When youre between a rock and a hard place, and you need to move, you need to pick one and move.
They think we ll just get tired and give in, its not happening, all they are doing is creating more distrust and anger = more people thinking no deal is the way forward.

You say that but is there any trend data available for the various Brexit options and the remain remainder?

 

[Rewulf]

57 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Ill conceived because of the current mess we are in - I'm sure you didn't want this but what did people seriously expect.

Once more , we are in a mess due to indecision, and a parliament who are more remain than leave, and who promised to enact the results of the referendum, but who now find themselves unwilling to do so.

They should each and every one of them who has gone against the wishes of their constituency, put themselves up for re election, and yes that does include the MPs whose constituencies voted remain and they support leave like Mogg.

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

This works both ways.

No it doesnt, you vote on something, and the result is carried out, or theres no point in voting is there ?
This is just how the EU is run, meaningless votes , and virtual dictatorship, with no accountability or oversight on what direction it takes.

 

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

But it would put the whole thing to be, surely. I would imagine the 28% are what remains of the ~33% of die hard, Brexit at any cost merchants who do not listen to any anti-Brexit media and are quite possibly hardened in their views by it.

By that logic, what kind of remain did you vote for ?

A remain with further reforms within the EU ? Even though you have admitted yourself it is in no way interested in reform.

A remain with federal superstate as soon as possible, giving up sovereignty , and trusting the EU to treat us all fairly ?

A remain with the ultimate aim akin to something in the Kalergi plan , with forced immigrant quotas, and forced integration ?

Or a remain just keeping as we are now, an impossibility in terms.

I  didnt see those 4 options on the ballot either.

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

You say that but is there any trend data available for the various Brexit options and the remain remainder?

Seriously, if the poll data was available, would they publish it ?
The government at this time, the civil serviced, most of parliament and media, dont want to see Brexit happen, at the very least they will disrupt any attempt at no deal.
So why would they publish data that supports it ?
Boris has said quite rightly, that come 31/10 we are out , do or die ect...
Members of his own party have concluded that to prevent this legal default horror that they voted for from happening, they must destroy his leadership, the tory party, government, and if necessary , the country to stop it.
That should tell you something in itself.

[Vince Green]

This is from one of my investment websites last week

 

"Last month, Italy announced a “new Lira” – the minibot alternative currency designed to “mobilise credit that is badly needed…” according to Claudio Borghi, chairman of Italy’s house budget committee.

 

As Ambrose Evans-Pritchard put it in the Telegraph:

 

“Once these short-term notes trade on the open market they would become a de facto currency, a new lira in waiting. Italy would have a split monetary system. The euro would unravel from within.”

 

Take a few moments to search for the end of the Euro in any search engine, and you won’t be short of results.

 

But what most people don’t seem to realise is that the end of the Euro comes with consequences for the UK…

 

And Brexit – whatever shape it takes – won’t make a difference.

 

Allow me to be clear:

 

I believe that the death of the Euro will start a chain reaction that will lead to the biggest financial crisis in history." 

 

 

If Italy could generate a new currency that is debt free and can leave behind the Euro and all its associated debts, would they not jump at it? Surely that's indisputable.

 

But what then happens to the debt? I think the UK is liable for about 40% of it one way or another. Far more than we should be

Edited July 1, 2019 by Vince Green

[WestonSalop]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

This is from one of my investment websites last week

 

"Last month, Italy announced a “new Lira” – the minibot alternative currency designed to “mobilise credit that is badly needed…” according to Claudio Borghi, chairman of Italy’s house budget committee.

 

As Ambrose Evans-Pritchard put it in the Telegraph:

 

“Once these short-term notes trade on the open market they would become a de facto currency, a new lira in waiting. Italy would have a split monetary system. The euro would unravel from within.”

 

Take a few moments to search for the end of the Euro in any search engine, and you won’t be short of results.

 

But what most people don’t seem to realise is that the end of the Euro comes with consequences for the UK…

 

And Brexit – whatever shape it takes – won’t make a difference.

 

Allow me to be clear:

 

I believe that the death of the Euro will start a chain reaction that will lead to the biggest financial crisis in history." 

 

 

If Italy could generate a new currency that is debt free and can leave behind the Euro and all its associated debts, would they not jump at it? Surely that's indisputable.

 

But what then happens to the debt? I think the UK is liable for about 40% of it one way or another. Far more than we should be

My take on these alternative currencies is not entirely positive to the extent that I'd have to say to the Italians "a fine del mondo è vicina"  the endof the world is nigh)!

[pinfireman]

On 26/06/2019 at 16:54, Raja Clavata said:

Pointless stat though isn’t it, highlights the issue with the referendum, there are only two possible outcomes - not four!

Mind you, it does prove the point that everyone who voted Brexit knew exactly what they were voting for 😛

Half the idiots who voted Remain probably did so under the delusion that they could change the EU to work better for us.....As I said, deluded!

On 28/06/2019 at 09:56, Raja Clavata said:

If it's going down the pain then we don't really need Brexit, surely.

Jump ship, BEFORE it sinks?

[Raja Clavata]

3 hours ago, pinfireman said:

Half the idiots who voted Remain probably did so under the delusion that they could change the EU to work better for us.....As I said, deluded!

Not worthy of a constructive response.

[pinfireman]

The Japanese Government have been doing their best to stoke fears over No Deal, the foreign minister threatened both Hunt and Boris over it last week. Meanwhile Japanese businesses are just getting on with investing in the UK. Japanese telecoms giant NTT Corporation has announced that they’re opening a new global HQ for their international subsidiary in London. NTT Corp has an annual revenue of over $100 billion a year and currently employs 40,000 people. The new London-based subsidiary merges three companies into an $11 billion business. Hardly running scared of a No Deal Brexit…

NTT Corp President and CEO Jun Sawada said their commitment to the UK remains “extremely strong” and that they made a “deliberate decision” to choose London after considering several locations:

“It has many benefits, including a stable economy, wealth of skills and talent, diversity in population and thinking, strong infrastructure, schools and housing for global talent moving to the city. In short, it’s a great city to live and work in, and we’re excited that we are making it the home for our new business”.

None of which is going to change after the UK says sayonara to the EU

Source: Guido Fawkes

18 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Not worthy of a constructive response.

Couldn,t you think of one?

[Rewulf]

Interesting...

From Peter Mather.

Swiss call the EU's bluff and go No Deal, catastrophe forecast by the EU, Swiss market up 1.3% this morning EU markets flat at best. A lesson learned if the deal is not right; walk away. Longish read but well worth it.

+++++++
No-deal Armageddon strikes stockmarkets
ISSUE1ST JULY 2019|NICK HUBBLE|
No-deal Armageddon has finally struck. But thanks to our wise prime minister, who secured an extension till October, it didn’t strike in the UK. At least, not directly.
The EU-Swiss deal to allow financial market equivalence expired on Friday. As of this morning, it is a criminal offence for an EU-based trader to trade shares on the Swiss stockmarket. Ignore the rule and you could be imprisoned for up to three years.
This is a very big deal.
The European stockmarkets’ biggest three companies are based in Switzerland. A third of Swiss stockmarket volume comes from outside its borders and 30% of trades in major Swiss blue-chip companies are placed in London. One EU based exchange alone will stop trading in 230 Swiss companies, including UBS and Novartis, today.
Stocks owned by fund managers, your pension and potentially your direct portfolio could be unsellable.
That’s why the Swiss stockmarket had a meltdown this morning.
…
Wait a minute !
What do you mean, it went up 1.3%?
About in line with the rest of EU stocks?
And the Swiss exchange is set to close at a record high today if things hold up?
Yikes. It turns out no-deal really is better than a bad deal… or perhaps people just don’t care.
But let’s ignore reality and continue to pretend that no-deal is a cliff edge crashing out crisis disaster. After all, the UK’s economic and financial market meltdown since 2016 proves what happens when you try and leave the EU. So, as an EU official told the Financial Times, “It could take weeks or months for the dust to settle” from the Swiss stockmarket crash this morning.
Why did Switzerland decide to break away from the EU’s stockmarkets? Why continue to ruin their disastrously non-EU economy by leaving the EU’s financial markets too?
Why not accept a foreign parliament’s ability to make Swiss law? Why risk Switzerland’s higher wages and living standards by staying out of the EU?
Actually, it wasn’t the Swiss who pushed through a no-deal Swiss-stockmarket-exit from the EU. The EU’s deal with Switzerland on stocks simply expired and the EU decided not to renew it.
So why would the EU deliberately trigger plunges in Switzerland’s stockmarkets this morning? (Remember, we’re pretending there’s chaos, like on Brexit. If you say it often enough…)
The reason for the EU’s anti-trade, protectionist and isolationist behaviour is familiar.
Back in the day, the EU told UK Brexit negotiators they couldn’t cherry pick. There would be no isolated case by case deals on issues such as flights, financial markets and medicines. There had to be one big all-encompassing deal. And nothing was agreed until everything was agreed. Except for the divorce payment, of course. That had to be agreed in advance.
The UK negotiators would’ve been a little mystified by all this at the time. The cherry-picked deals on those issues had already been done, after all. Planes would fly, financial markets trade and medicines move across borders thanks to bilateral agreements…
The other issue was that the Swiss had been operating under a cherry-picking arrangement for quite some time… In fact, they’d cherry picked about 120 bilateral treaties with the EU. That’s a lot of cherries.
But the Financial Times quoted “a diplomat” who said, “We’re not going to treat the Brits any worse than Switzerland.” Which necessitates treating Switzerland sufficiently badly too, if you want to punish Britain.
That’s what triggered the EU’s decision to let the EU-Swiss stockmarket equivalence end. They wanted the Swiss to do a megadeal with the EU, just like the UK should. The “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” sort of thing. Converting those 120 cherries into one big pie.
Letting those case-by-case agreements expire creates pressure to do a megadeal. It turns EU-Swiss relations into an all or nothing situation. The sort of bullying that the EU is designed to make possible by becoming big enough.
And so that’s how the EU decided to up the pressure on Switzerland to agree to the megadeal – by letting the stockmarket equivalence deal expire.
But the Swiss don’t like getting bullied. And the Swiss political class don’t feel the same need to obey the EU. Perhaps they’re less desperate for a career at the EU level after their national-level run comes to an end.
Instead, the Swiss politicians listened to their population’s views about the dodgy EU megadeal, with a six-month consultation on the issues. The people didn’t like the deal, and raised a series of questions. So the Swiss politicians went back to the EU with those questions.
The EU doesn’t like questions. Especially not about the nature of its power structures, its undemocratic lawmaking capacity, and the odd workings of the judiciary. So the EU Commission president simply declared the Swiss questions were just a delay tactic. Allowing stockmarket equivalence to expire should prod the Swiss in the right direction…
The Financial Times has the EU Commission spokesperson quote:
“At this stage we have no indication about any intention of our Swiss partners to make further progress [on the megadeal] and hence there is no justification to extend the current equivalence decision beyond 30 June.”
But the Swiss did what they always do when Europe behaves like this. They just shrugged and walked away, ignoring warnings about financial and economic chaos. Precisely what the UK negotiators proved incapable of.
The Swiss even retaliated, Donald Trump style. They banned trading Swiss shares in the EU to “protect its domestic financial market”. I’m not sure how the EU and Swiss both banning trading in Swiss shares in the EU is retaliation, but at least it’s consistent.
The Swiss made their provisions for this eventuality last year, by the way. The legislation is through. No-deal has been the default option for months. Compare that to the UK government’s preparations, where huge amounts of legislation are still needed in the run up to a no-deal.
What are the longer term impacts of the Swiss-EU stockmarket divorce? Well, the ability to trade the same stock in multiple locations created competition. That kept costs low for investors. Which may reverse now. The Swiss financial industry is pleased.
But the Swiss are also worried that stocks are only the beginning of a breakdown in EU relations. The economy could be in for more disasters like today’s stockmarket rally… sorry, crash. 119 cherries to go.
If the Swiss continue along their merry way, all this may encourage no-dealers in the UK. As Bloomberg pointed out, “the EU used Switzerland’s stock market as a bargaining chip”. Apparently this doesn’t work very well in the end. The bluff was called. How embarrassing.
Scott Evans, a researcher at London Business School, said “This also sends a very clear message to the U.K. regarding equivalence in the post Brexit period — which so far has been viewed by the Brexiteers and the current U.K. government as a given.”
The message is loud and clear. Bring on no-deal!

[Newbie to this]

42 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Interesting...

From Peter Mather.

Swiss call the EU's bluff and go No Deal, catastrophe forecast by the EU, Swiss market up 1.3% this morning EU markets flat at best. A lesson learned if the deal is not right; walk away. Longish read but well worth it.

+++++++
No-deal Armageddon strikes stockmarkets
ISSUE1ST JULY 2019|NICK HUBBLE|
No-deal Armageddon has finally struck. But thanks to our wise prime minister, who secured an extension till October, it didn’t strike in the UK. At least, not directly.
The EU-Swiss deal to allow financial market equivalence expired on Friday. As of this morning, it is a criminal offence for an EU-based trader to trade shares on the Swiss stockmarket. Ignore the rule and you could be imprisoned for up to three years.
This is a very big deal.
The European stockmarkets’ biggest three companies are based in Switzerland. A third of Swiss stockmarket volume comes from outside its borders and 30% of trades in major Swiss blue-chip companies are placed in London. One EU based exchange alone will stop trading in 230 Swiss companies, including UBS and Novartis, today.
Stocks owned by fund managers, your pension and potentially your direct portfolio could be unsellable.
That’s why the Swiss stockmarket had a meltdown this morning.
…
Wait a minute !
What do you mean, it went up 1.3%?
About in line with the rest of EU stocks?
And the Swiss exchange is set to close at a record high today if things hold up?
Yikes. It turns out no-deal really is better than a bad deal… or perhaps people just don’t care.
But let’s ignore reality and continue to pretend that no-deal is a cliff edge crashing out crisis disaster. After all, the UK’s economic and financial market meltdown since 2016 proves what happens when you try and leave the EU. So, as an EU official told the Financial Times, “It could take weeks or months for the dust to settle” from the Swiss stockmarket crash this morning.
Why did Switzerland decide to break away from the EU’s stockmarkets? Why continue to ruin their disastrously non-EU economy by leaving the EU’s financial markets too?
Why not accept a foreign parliament’s ability to make Swiss law? Why risk Switzerland’s higher wages and living standards by staying out of the EU?
Actually, it wasn’t the Swiss who pushed through a no-deal Swiss-stockmarket-exit from the EU. The EU’s deal with Switzerland on stocks simply expired and the EU decided not to renew it.
So why would the EU deliberately trigger plunges in Switzerland’s stockmarkets this morning? (Remember, we’re pretending there’s chaos, like on Brexit. If you say it often enough…)
The reason for the EU’s anti-trade, protectionist and isolationist behaviour is familiar.
Back in the day, the EU told UK Brexit negotiators they couldn’t cherry pick. There would be no isolated case by case deals on issues such as flights, financial markets and medicines. There had to be one big all-encompassing deal. And nothing was agreed until everything was agreed. Except for the divorce payment, of course. That had to be agreed in advance.
The UK negotiators would’ve been a little mystified by all this at the time. The cherry-picked deals on those issues had already been done, after all. Planes would fly, financial markets trade and medicines move across borders thanks to bilateral agreements…
The other issue was that the Swiss had been operating under a cherry-picking arrangement for quite some time… In fact, they’d cherry picked about 120 bilateral treaties with the EU. That’s a lot of cherries.
But the Financial Times quoted “a diplomat” who said, “We’re not going to treat the Brits any worse than Switzerland.” Which necessitates treating Switzerland sufficiently badly too, if you want to punish Britain.
That’s what triggered the EU’s decision to let the EU-Swiss stockmarket equivalence end. They wanted the Swiss to do a megadeal with the EU, just like the UK should. The “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” sort of thing. Converting those 120 cherries into one big pie.
Letting those case-by-case agreements expire creates pressure to do a megadeal. It turns EU-Swiss relations into an all or nothing situation. The sort of bullying that the EU is designed to make possible by becoming big enough.
And so that’s how the EU decided to up the pressure on Switzerland to agree to the megadeal – by letting the stockmarket equivalence deal expire.
But the Swiss don’t like getting bullied. And the Swiss political class don’t feel the same need to obey the EU. Perhaps they’re less desperate for a career at the EU level after their national-level run comes to an end.
Instead, the Swiss politicians listened to their population’s views about the dodgy EU megadeal, with a six-month consultation on the issues. The people didn’t like the deal, and raised a series of questions. So the Swiss politicians went back to the EU with those questions.
The EU doesn’t like questions. Especially not about the nature of its power structures, its undemocratic lawmaking capacity, and the odd workings of the judiciary. So the EU Commission president simply declared the Swiss questions were just a delay tactic. Allowing stockmarket equivalence to expire should prod the Swiss in the right direction…
The Financial Times has the EU Commission spokesperson quote:
“At this stage we have no indication about any intention of our Swiss partners to make further progress [on the megadeal] and hence there is no justification to extend the current equivalence decision beyond 30 June.”
But the Swiss did what they always do when Europe behaves like this. They just shrugged and walked away, ignoring warnings about financial and economic chaos. Precisely what the UK negotiators proved incapable of.
The Swiss even retaliated, Donald Trump style. They banned trading Swiss shares in the EU to “protect its domestic financial market”. I’m not sure how the EU and Swiss both banning trading in Swiss shares in the EU is retaliation, but at least it’s consistent.
The Swiss made their provisions for this eventuality last year, by the way. The legislation is through. No-deal has been the default option for months. Compare that to the UK government’s preparations, where huge amounts of legislation are still needed in the run up to a no-deal.
What are the longer term impacts of the Swiss-EU stockmarket divorce? Well, the ability to trade the same stock in multiple locations created competition. That kept costs low for investors. Which may reverse now. The Swiss financial industry is pleased.
But the Swiss are also worried that stocks are only the beginning of a breakdown in EU relations. The economy could be in for more disasters like today’s stockmarket rally… sorry, crash. 119 cherries to go.
If the Swiss continue along their merry way, all this may encourage no-dealers in the UK. As Bloomberg pointed out, “the EU used Switzerland’s stock market as a bargaining chip”. Apparently this doesn’t work very well in the end. The bluff was called. How embarrassing.
Scott Evans, a researcher at London Business School, said “This also sends a very clear message to the U.K. regarding equivalence in the post Brexit period — which so far has been viewed by the Brexiteers and the current U.K. government as a given.”
The message is loud and clear. Bring on no-deal!

 didn't quite go to plan 

[pinfireman]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Interesting...

From Peter Mather.

Swiss call the EU's bluff and go No Deal, catastrophe forecast by the EU, Swiss market up 1.3% this morning EU markets flat at best. A lesson learned if the deal is not right; walk away. Longish read but well worth it.

+++++++
No-deal Armageddon strikes stockmarkets
ISSUE1ST JULY 2019|NICK HUBBLE|
No-deal Armageddon has finally struck. But thanks to our wise prime minister, who secured an extension till October, it didn’t strike in the UK. At least, not directly.
The EU-Swiss deal to allow financial market equivalence expired on Friday. As of this morning, it is a criminal offence for an EU-based trader to trade shares on the Swiss stockmarket. Ignore the rule and you could be imprisoned for up to three years.
This is a very big deal.
The European stockmarkets’ biggest three companies are based in Switzerland. A third of Swiss stockmarket volume comes from outside its borders and 30% of trades in major Swiss blue-chip companies are placed in London. One EU based exchange alone will stop trading in 230 Swiss companies, including UBS and Novartis, today.
Stocks owned by fund managers, your pension and potentially your direct portfolio could be unsellable.
That’s why the Swiss stockmarket had a meltdown this morning.
…
Wait a minute !
What do you mean, it went up 1.3%?
About in line with the rest of EU stocks?
And the Swiss exchange is set to close at a record high today if things hold up?
Yikes. It turns out no-deal really is better than a bad deal… or perhaps people just don’t care.
But let’s ignore reality and continue to pretend that no-deal is a cliff edge crashing out crisis disaster. After all, the UK’s economic and financial market meltdown since 2016 proves what happens when you try and leave the EU. So, as an EU official told the Financial Times, “It could take weeks or months for the dust to settle” from the Swiss stockmarket crash this morning.
Why did Switzerland decide to break away from the EU’s stockmarkets? Why continue to ruin their disastrously non-EU economy by leaving the EU’s financial markets too?
Why not accept a foreign parliament’s ability to make Swiss law? Why risk Switzerland’s higher wages and living standards by staying out of the EU?
Actually, it wasn’t the Swiss who pushed through a no-deal Swiss-stockmarket-exit from the EU. The EU’s deal with Switzerland on stocks simply expired and the EU decided not to renew it.
So why would the EU deliberately trigger plunges in Switzerland’s stockmarkets this morning? (Remember, we’re pretending there’s chaos, like on Brexit. If you say it often enough…)
The reason for the EU’s anti-trade, protectionist and isolationist behaviour is familiar.
Back in the day, the EU told UK Brexit negotiators they couldn’t cherry pick. There would be no isolated case by case deals on issues such as flights, financial markets and medicines. There had to be one big all-encompassing deal. And nothing was agreed until everything was agreed. Except for the divorce payment, of course. That had to be agreed in advance.
The UK negotiators would’ve been a little mystified by all this at the time. The cherry-picked deals on those issues had already been done, after all. Planes would fly, financial markets trade and medicines move across borders thanks to bilateral agreements…
The other issue was that the Swiss had been operating under a cherry-picking arrangement for quite some time… In fact, they’d cherry picked about 120 bilateral treaties with the EU. That’s a lot of cherries.
But the Financial Times quoted “a diplomat” who said, “We’re not going to treat the Brits any worse than Switzerland.” Which necessitates treating Switzerland sufficiently badly too, if you want to punish Britain.
That’s what triggered the EU’s decision to let the EU-Swiss stockmarket equivalence end. They wanted the Swiss to do a megadeal with the EU, just like the UK should. The “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” sort of thing. Converting those 120 cherries into one big pie.
Letting those case-by-case agreements expire creates pressure to do a megadeal. It turns EU-Swiss relations into an all or nothing situation. The sort of bullying that the EU is designed to make possible by becoming big enough.
And so that’s how the EU decided to up the pressure on Switzerland to agree to the megadeal – by letting the stockmarket equivalence deal expire.
But the Swiss don’t like getting bullied. And the Swiss political class don’t feel the same need to obey the EU. Perhaps they’re less desperate for a career at the EU level after their national-level run comes to an end.
Instead, the Swiss politicians listened to their population’s views about the dodgy EU megadeal, with a six-month consultation on the issues. The people didn’t like the deal, and raised a series of questions. So the Swiss politicians went back to the EU with those questions.
The EU doesn’t like questions. Especially not about the nature of its power structures, its undemocratic lawmaking capacity, and the odd workings of the judiciary. So the EU Commission president simply declared the Swiss questions were just a delay tactic. Allowing stockmarket equivalence to expire should prod the Swiss in the right direction…
The Financial Times has the EU Commission spokesperson quote:
“At this stage we have no indication about any intention of our Swiss partners to make further progress [on the megadeal] and hence there is no justification to extend the current equivalence decision beyond 30 June.”
But the Swiss did what they always do when Europe behaves like this. They just shrugged and walked away, ignoring warnings about financial and economic chaos. Precisely what the UK negotiators proved incapable of.
The Swiss even retaliated, Donald Trump style. They banned trading Swiss shares in the EU to “protect its domestic financial market”. I’m not sure how the EU and Swiss both banning trading in Swiss shares in the EU is retaliation, but at least it’s consistent.
The Swiss made their provisions for this eventuality last year, by the way. The legislation is through. No-deal has been the default option for months. Compare that to the UK government’s preparations, where huge amounts of legislation are still needed in the run up to a no-deal.
What are the longer term impacts of the Swiss-EU stockmarket divorce? Well, the ability to trade the same stock in multiple locations created competition. That kept costs low for investors. Which may reverse now. The Swiss financial industry is pleased.
But the Swiss are also worried that stocks are only the beginning of a breakdown in EU relations. The economy could be in for more disasters like today’s stockmarket rally… sorry, crash. 119 cherries to go.
If the Swiss continue along their merry way, all this may encourage no-dealers in the UK. As Bloomberg pointed out, “the EU used Switzerland’s stock market as a bargaining chip”. Apparently this doesn’t work very well in the end. The bluff was called. How embarrassing.
Scott Evans, a researcher at London Business School, said “This also sends a very clear message to the U.K. regarding equivalence in the post Brexit period — which so far has been viewed by the Brexiteers and the current U.K. government as a given.”
The message is loud and clear. Bring on no-deal!

Brilliant!, absolutely brilliant! (Though I have no doubt one or more of our resident legal/financial wizards will find fault with it!)

[lister22]

17000000  **** offs😄

[Rewulf]

I see head of the IMF Christine Lagarde has been given the job of heading up the European Central Bank. 

Obviously she highly qualified for the job 🤣

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/christine-lagarde-convicted-imf-head-found-guilty-of-negligence-in-fraud-trial-a7484586.html

[Newbie to this]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I see head of the IMF Christine Lagarde has been given the job of heading up the European Central Bank. 

Obviously she highly qualified for the job 🤣

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/christine-lagarde-convicted-imf-head-found-guilty-of-negligence-in-fraud-trial-a7484586.html

It really hits home doesnt it. How can a convicted criminal hold public office. Politics is well and truly broken worldwide.

We have a convicted fraudster (which her charge had to do with public money), in charge of the IMF and now EU central bank.

Not to mention our own convinced criminals who still hold public office. It's an absolute disgrace. Being a convict should 100% stop you from holding public office and cost you your job if you already do.

 

And then we have a German defence minister who will be in charge of building an EU army!

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

And then we have a German defence minister who will be in charge of building an EU army

She will be president of the EU, a staunch supporter of a federal superstate, how's that for reform?! 

Best bit is, people are saying, 'the EU parliament have to ratify it first though' 😂

[Rewulf]

The EU /Swiss war gathers pace.

EU sharpens torture tools as Swiss showdown escalates into energy war

The Grande Dixence dam: Swiss hydro power is crucial to plugging the gaps in Europe's electricity supply - but is now part of the political battleground with Brussels 
Switzerland has survived the first battle of the bourses with the EU.

Shares of Nestle, Novartis, and UBS will for now be traded on the SIX exchange in Zurich rather than in Frankfurt or London. The sky will not fall because of that.

But the clash with Brussels will become increasingly painful as the pressure ratchets up. The EU is determined to shut down the idiosyncratic “Swiss model”. It aims to bring the country within its legal and regulatory control once and for all under a new framework agreement.

This means suspending 120 bilateral accords one by one as they fall due, progressively shutting the Swiss out of the EU’s economic, transport, and political system until they capitulate. It amounts to a sanctions regime.

Energy too is on the menu and this risks escalation into areas of national security. “Energy access for Switzerland is slowly deteriorating,” said Professor Paul van Baal from Lausanne's Polytechnique Fédérale.

The EU has pointedly excluded the country from EU legislation on power grids and network codes. The Swiss have to compete with one arm tied behind their backs in the electricity market. This raises costs and creates friction.

It is serious enough that intraday market volumes fell to almost zero at times last year. Nor can the Swiss control the ‘loop flows’ of power going from one EU state to another through its own territory, short of taking quasi-military action.

Prof van Baal said renewable certificates are next on the list. Switzerland is likely to lose the equivalence status that allowing the country trade these contracts across the EU.

This slow squeeze is double-edged for Europe. Switzerland is a power hub. Roughly 10pc of the EU’s electricity passes through 40 connection points on its territory. “It is impossible to decouple that,” he said.

Swiss volts power the industrial heartland of the Lombardy. Most of Italy’s power lines from the rest of the EU pass through Switzerland.

Swiss hydro-power – 60pc of its electricity output – is ‘dispatchable’ and in a sense plugs the intermittency gap when the sun stops shining in Baden-Württemberg, Bavaria or Burgundy. It is the ‘Alpine battery’ for German and French solar.

Brussels is preparing others tools of suffocation. There are threats to withdraw mutual recognition for exports of medical equipment. This has the character of a creeping blockade. “In theory the EU could cut off access to almost anything,” said Pieter Cleppe from Open Europe in Brussels.

“It is a worrying precedent that a country can be cut off like this for purely-political motives when it has not violated its obligations,” he said.

Switzerland’s problems have been growing ever since the Brexit referendum. The country has become a victim of proxy diplomatic warfare, as made clear in leaked comments last month by the EU commissioner in charge of bilateral talks, Johannes Hahn.

“We simply cannot accept any further attempts of foot dragging and watering down internal market rules, especially in what is probably the decisive phase regarding Brexit,” he said.

The Swiss are digging in their heels, and resistance crosses the Left-Right spectrum. They surprised Brussels by retaliating this week in the war of the bourses. The Swiss parliament has refused to accept the framework agreement unless renegotiated – deemed a “non-starter” by Commission’s Martin Selmayr.

The sticking point is that Switzerland must accept must accept the writ of the European Court of Justice and “dynamic alignment” of EU legislation over migration, social security rules, and key areas of economic policy in perpetuity.

Thomas Aeschi, head of the Swiss People’s Party (SVP) in the national parliament, said cross-clauses in the text allow the ECJ to extend its sway over tax codes, farming, healthcare, and cantonal state-aid policies. “We end up becoming a passive member of the EU without voting rights,” he said.

“Dynamic legal alignment is a wholesale assault on the rights of the people, and the prerogatives of parliament and the cantons. It is a massive limitation of popular democracy,” said the party.

The cantons of Ticino, Sankt Gallen, Schwyz, and Zug have all raised objections. The EU’s framework deal cuts across the constitutional framework of Swiss confederalism. The state-aid clauses would hamstring the 24 cantonal banks.

“The text is dead. We cannot accept ECJ oversight,” says Pierre-Yves Maillar, head of the Swiss Federation of Trade Unions (SGB). “Ultimately, the only way out is fresh negotiations."

The trade unions fear that EU demands will undermine worker protection rights and threaten the integrity of Switzerland’s solidarity and welfare model. They see the EU as a neo-liberal venture in hock to big business and transnational capital, which game the temporary workers directive to bring in cheap labour from Eastern Europe and drive down wages. The irony is that Jeremy Corbyn wishes to lock Britain into this model by automatically importing EU labour law.

The Swiss government and business elites back the EU deal. They are scrambling to find a solution before the ratchet effect of EU sanctions does real damage. Yet Swiss popular democracy will have its way. The government’s letter to the EU said it is “practically certain” that final text will require a popular vote.

There is no sign yet that Swiss voters are ready to yield. A SonntagsZeitung poll shows that just 20pc back the EU deal, while 67pc want it changed or rejected altogether. Support for EU membership has dropped to an all-time low of 13pc.

This David and Goliath struggle can end only one way. The Swiss will eventually have to sign on the dotted line or face asphyxiation.

But the EU risks paying a high diplomatic and moral cost before that point is reached. It will be accused of bullying a small country and displaying a chronic inability to coexist with any of its near abroad.

Some wit might acidly point to Article 7 of the Lisbon Treaty. “The Union shall develop a special relationship with neighbouring countries, aiming to establish an area of prosperity and good neighbourliness, founded on the values of the Union and characterised by close and peaceful relations based on cooperation.”

[Newbie to this]

40 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The EU /Swiss war gathers pace.

EU sharpens torture tools as Swiss showdown escalates into energy war

The Grande Dixence dam: Swiss hydro power is crucial to plugging the gaps in Europe's electricity supply - but is now part of the political battleground with Brussels 
Switzerland has survived the first battle of the bourses with the EU.

Shares of Nestle, Novartis, and UBS will for now be traded on the SIX exchange in Zurich rather than in Frankfurt or London. The sky will not fall because of that.

But the clash with Brussels will become increasingly painful as the pressure ratchets up. The EU is determined to shut down the idiosyncratic “Swiss model”. It aims to bring the country within its legal and regulatory control once and for all under a new framework agreement.

This means suspending 120 bilateral accords one by one as they fall due, progressively shutting the Swiss out of the EU’s economic, transport, and political system until they capitulate. It amounts to a sanctions regime.

Energy too is on the menu and this risks escalation into areas of national security. “Energy access for Switzerland is slowly deteriorating,” said Professor Paul van Baal from Lausanne's Polytechnique Fédérale.

The EU has pointedly excluded the country from EU legislation on power grids and network codes. The Swiss have to compete with one arm tied behind their backs in the electricity market. This raises costs and creates friction.

It is serious enough that intraday market volumes fell to almost zero at times last year. Nor can the Swiss control the ‘loop flows’ of power going from one EU state to another through its own territory, short of taking quasi-military action.

Prof van Baal said renewable certificates are next on the list. Switzerland is likely to lose the equivalence status that allowing the country trade these contracts across the EU.

This slow squeeze is double-edged for Europe. Switzerland is a power hub. Roughly 10pc of the EU’s electricity passes through 40 connection points on its territory. “It is impossible to decouple that,” he said.

Swiss volts power the industrial heartland of the Lombardy. Most of Italy’s power lines from the rest of the EU pass through Switzerland.

Swiss hydro-power – 60pc of its electricity output – is ‘dispatchable’ and in a sense plugs the intermittency gap when the sun stops shining in Baden-Württemberg, Bavaria or Burgundy. It is the ‘Alpine battery’ for German and French solar.

Brussels is preparing others tools of suffocation. There are threats to withdraw mutual recognition for exports of medical equipment. This has the character of a creeping blockade. “In theory the EU could cut off access to almost anything,” said Pieter Cleppe from Open Europe in Brussels.

“It is a worrying precedent that a country can be cut off like this for purely-political motives when it has not violated its obligations,” he said.

Switzerland’s problems have been growing ever since the Brexit referendum. The country has become a victim of proxy diplomatic warfare, as made clear in leaked comments last month by the EU commissioner in charge of bilateral talks, Johannes Hahn.

“We simply cannot accept any further attempts of foot dragging and watering down internal market rules, especially in what is probably the decisive phase regarding Brexit,” he said.

The Swiss are digging in their heels, and resistance crosses the Left-Right spectrum. They surprised Brussels by retaliating this week in the war of the bourses. The Swiss parliament has refused to accept the framework agreement unless renegotiated – deemed a “non-starter” by Commission’s Martin Selmayr.

The sticking point is that Switzerland must accept must accept the writ of the European Court of Justice and “dynamic alignment” of EU legislation over migration, social security rules, and key areas of economic policy in perpetuity.

Thomas Aeschi, head of the Swiss People’s Party (SVP) in the national parliament, said cross-clauses in the text allow the ECJ to extend its sway over tax codes, farming, healthcare, and cantonal state-aid policies. “We end up becoming a passive member of the EU without voting rights,” he said.

“Dynamic legal alignment is a wholesale assault on the rights of the people, and the prerogatives of parliament and the cantons. It is a massive limitation of popular democracy,” said the party.

The cantons of Ticino, Sankt Gallen, Schwyz, and Zug have all raised objections. The EU’s framework deal cuts across the constitutional framework of Swiss confederalism. The state-aid clauses would hamstring the 24 cantonal banks.

“The text is dead. We cannot accept ECJ oversight,” says Pierre-Yves Maillar, head of the Swiss Federation of Trade Unions (SGB). “Ultimately, the only way out is fresh negotiations."

The trade unions fear that EU demands will undermine worker protection rights and threaten the integrity of Switzerland’s solidarity and welfare model. They see the EU as a neo-liberal venture in hock to big business and transnational capital, which game the temporary workers directive to bring in cheap labour from Eastern Europe and drive down wages. The irony is that Jeremy Corbyn wishes to lock Britain into this model by automatically importing EU labour law.

The Swiss government and business elites back the EU deal. They are scrambling to find a solution before the ratchet effect of EU sanctions does real damage. Yet Swiss popular democracy will have its way. The government’s letter to the EU said it is “practically certain” that final text will require a popular vote.

There is no sign yet that Swiss voters are ready to yield. A SonntagsZeitung poll shows that just 20pc back the EU deal, while 67pc want it changed or rejected altogether. Support for EU membership has dropped to an all-time low of 13pc.

This David and Goliath struggle can end only one way. The Swiss will eventually have to sign on the dotted line or face asphyxiation.

But the EU risks paying a high diplomatic and moral cost before that point is reached. It will be accused of bullying a small country and displaying a chronic inability to coexist with any of its near abroad.

Some wit might acidly point to Article 7 of the Lisbon Treaty. “The Union shall develop a special relationship with neighbouring countries, aiming to establish an area of prosperity and good neighbourliness, founded on the values of the Union and characterised by close and peaceful relations based on cooperation.”

If that is how they treat their friends, god knows how they will treat their enemies, especially with their ambition for an army!

 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

If that is how they treat their friends, god knows how they will treat their enemies, especially with their ambition for an army!

With no army, all they have is threats, bluster, and sanctions that could just as easily impact them as much as the target.
Having a military force at their disposal is not only a sure fire way to unbalance the whole power game in Europe, but to give an unelected dictatorship a whole new options set ?
Thats just madness.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Let's get out and leave them to their dreams of a 4th Reich!

[Penelope]

20 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

If that is how they treat their friends, god knows how they will treat their enemies, especially with their ambition for an army!

 

Something like this, perhaps?

Edited July 3, 2019 by Penelope

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

With no army, all they have is threats, bluster, and sanctions that could just as easily impact them as much as the target.
Having a military force at their disposal is not only a sure fire way to unbalance the whole power game in Europe, but to give an unelected dictatorship a whole new options set ?
Thats just madness.

And quite unsettlingly scary in my opinion.

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

By that logic, what kind of remain did you vote for ?

A remain with further reforms within the EU ? Even though you have admitted yourself it is in no way interested in reform.

A remain with federal superstate as soon as possible, giving up sovereignty , and trusting the EU to treat us all fairly ?

A remain with the ultimate aim akin to something in the Kalergi plan , with forced immigrant quotas, and forced integration ?

Or a remain just keeping as we are now, an impossibility in terms.

I  didnt see those 4 options on the ballot either.

 

Remainers question what type of leave deal Brexiteers wanted, whilst ignoring this.