Brexit - merged threads

[Dave-G]

I can't speak for most leavers but I simply don't like the idea that unelected bullies have manipulated us and other countries into agreeing with any decision they like which is usually to their advantage and stripping assets from this country, and are trying to force us to succomb to their every court rulings for ever - and force us to allow ANY European people into our country as an compulsory part of customs free trading with them.

We were hoodwinked into joining their club under the pretence that it was merely a customs free trading agreement - the Common Market. They and even our own traiterous MP's have lied and lied to the electorate umpteen times.

Us British have simply had enough bossing us about basically, if it costs a bit more, or is inconvenient for a while then so be it.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, Dave-G said:

I can't speak for most leavers but I simply don't like the idea that unelected bullies have manipulated us and other countries into agreeing with any decision they like which is usually to their advantage and stripping assets from this country, and are trying to force us to succomb to their every court rulings for ever - and force us to allow ANY European people into our country as an compulsory part of customs free trading with them.

We were hoodwinked into joining their club under the pretence that it was merely a customs free trading agreement - the Common Market. They and even our own traiterous MP's have lied and lied to the electorate umpteen times.

Us British have simply had enough bossing us about basically, if it costs a bit more, or is inconvenient for a while then so be it.

That's it!

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

I

Us British have simply had enough bossing us about basically, if it costs a bit more, or is inconvenient for a while then so be it.

+1
We are a different people to our continental cousins.
Our heritage and culture, our personality as a people is different.
We dont roll over easily, surrender and accept what we might feel to be oppressive or incompatible with our ideals.
We arent necessarily war like , or belligerent, but it is no surprise to me that we are the at the forefront of sticking 2 fingers up at an adversary.
Its what we do 😉

[Dave-G]

14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

+1
We are a different people to our continental cousins.
Our heritage and culture, our personality as a people is different.
We dont roll over easily, surrender and accept what we might feel to be oppressive or incompatible with our ideals.
We arent necessarily war like , or belligerent, but it is no surprise to me that we are the at the forefront of sticking 2 fingers up at an adversary.
Its what we do 😉

You put that so much better. Can we have a 'smoking a pipe' smiley please?

 

EDIT: Wonder if this works: https://www.istockphoto.com/gb/vector/gentleman-emoticon-vector-smiley-icon-with-mustache-hat-smoking-pipe-monocle-and-a-gm929921828-254977530

Edited November 9, 2018 by Dave-G

[Rewulf]

[JohnfromUK]

50 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

We were hoodwinked into joining their club under the pretence that it was merely a customs free trading agreement - the Common Market.

That is quite correct

50 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

are trying to force us to succumb to their every court rulings for ever - and force us to allow ANY European people into our country as an compulsory part of customs free trading with them.

It is up to our politicians to stand up and say NO ........ but they don't.  In a way, you can't blame the EU for trying to get as good a deal for themselves as they can - but we should be 'bargaining back', not 'giving in'.  We should be firmly saying NO border in the Irish sea.  NI and the UK are one.  No 'temporary border with an open ended time limit'  Quite simple NO border within the UK. 

35 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

We are a different people to our continental cousins.
Our heritage and culture, our personality as a people is different.

These are true.

35 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

We don't roll over easily, surrender and accept what we might feel to be oppressive or incompatible with our ideals.

Sadly, we may not, but our representatives do - £40 billion worth.

35 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

We aren't necessarily war like , or belligerent, but it is no surprise to me that we are the at the forefront of sticking 2 fingers up at an adversary.
Its what we do

Again - I wish our politicians would.

To be fair, we haven't totally given in ........ yet.

This is despite continuous lack of support here at home from many parts of her own party on one side led by Soubery and Grieve and on the other by Boris Johnson, continual attempts to de-rail by Blair, Mandleson, Cable, Clegg, Soros, Major, Heseltine, Gina Miller, and of course the 'official' opposition - who don't seem to know (or actually really care) what they want except May out and Commie Corbyn in.  I simply cannot believe that Corbyn, Starmer, MacDonell, Abbott and Thornberry (Lady Nugee) would have done any better - and suspect they would have done a whole lot worse ending up with Brexit in name only (BRINO)  by staying fully permanently in the single market.  Starmer has said they would only support a deal that 'gave exactly the same terms as we had pre referendum'.  If that isn't BRINO, I don't know what is.

Edited November 9, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[Rewulf]

Boris Johnsons brother,  Jo ?? (No Id never heard of him either) a cabinet minister just resigned over the Brexit deal on the table.

https://www.rt.com/uk/443563-uk-transport-minister-quits/

And hes a remainer !

[JohnfromUK]

14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Boris Johnsons brother,  Jo ?? (No Id never heard of him either) a cabinet minister just resigned over the Brexit deal on the table.

 

To lose one Johnson might be seen by some (but possibly not by all) as unfortunate; to lose two seems a bit careless.

Edited November 9, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[Dave-G]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

To loose one Johnson might be seen by some (but possibly not by all) as unfortunate; to loose two seems a bit careless.

Seems the brothers have differing opinions about brexit - Jo wants a second run at it.

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

To loose one Johnson might be seen by some (but possibly not by all) as unfortunate; to loose two seems a bit careless.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

The credit goes (I think) to Oscar Wilde (or possibly George Bernard Shaw) ...... certainly not me!  Just checked - it was Oscar Wilde.

Edited November 9, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[besty57]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Theres good reasons for not leaving the table ,and theres good reasons for May not talking 'no deal'

First off, we have to be seen to be trying to negotiate, the world, and more importantly other EU members are watching closely.
Who wants to deal with rude intransigent people ?
I think we have given a lot to the talks , we have made massive concessions.
Transition , rights to EU nationals , multi billion divorce pledges, what more do they want ?
They want to split NI away, but NI doesnt want that, WE dont want that.
They say they dont want the troubles back, what do you think taking NI out of the UK would do ??

Mays trying to avoid no deal, because to go straight in at that position throws up huge problems within the 2 parties and the Remain populace.
Would it collapse the government ?
Would the tories lose power ? , then what ?
Would labour continue with Brexit, or reverse it, even though they said they wouldnt ?
Its also something of an unknown quantity economy wise.

Would the EU make life as difficult as possible for us  ?
I believe they would, for a while, until European business bought them back into line.
But that could easily create a Europe wide recession.

Theres doing something and theres being SEEN to be doing something.

Theres the simple fact that the EU has said we are not getting a free trade deal, why would they give us every perk open to members?
So why should they get every perk we give to them ?
And a divorce payment.
And a transition period.
And access to their citizens for work (albeit, with some restrictions) whilst talking about visas for our holidaying citizens, plane landing restrictions, roaming issues ect ect.
They want everything, we get nothing.
If no deal is a way to level up the field and start again, then bring it on, if it goes bad , it goes bad for everyone, and hopefully we still have some democracy within Europe for its peoples to change the parts we dont like.

Dont forget , the EU isnt Europe, Europe is the PEOPLE, the EU are just a bunch of cronyist elites who elected themselves, and have convinced everyone that they speak for them, and that they know best.
They are wrong, and we are going to show them how wrong.

As usual rewulf, nail on the head,

[matone]

3 hours ago, Dave-G said:

I can't speak for most leavers but I simply don't like the idea that unelected bullies have manipulated us and other countries into agreeing with any decision they like which is usually to their advantage and stripping assets from this country, and are trying to force us to succomb to their every court rulings for ever - and force us to allow ANY European people into our country as an compulsory part of customs free trading with them.

We were hoodwinked into joining their club under the pretence that it was merely a customs free trading agreement - the Common Market. They and even our own traiterous MP's have lied and lied to the electorate umpteen times.

Us British have simply had enough bossing us about basically, if it costs a bit more, or is inconvenient for a while then so be it.

Sums it up nicely!

 

[Good shot?]

13 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I feel you are preaching to the converted, although I share your disgust with the situation.

I too feel I am preaching to the converted, on PW.

But in most of the media and especially the BBC all I hear and see is 'remainer biased reporting and scaremongering.

The Leave camp have given up in my opinion or are not given the airtime at least.

All the money is on the remain side unfortunately and most of the interviewers show their remain colours by the questioning.

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Good shot?
Spelling edit.

[panoma1]

Interesting that Corbyn has stated that Brexit will happen, that there's no going back and there should not be another referendum! It wouldn't be because if/when he gets his leftwing government into power, they can do what they want to the UK people, unhindered and without the threat of interference from EU rules and/or the EU courts could it?

[Rewulf]

20 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Interesting that Corbyn has stated that Brexit will happen, that there's no going back and there should not be another referendum! It wouldn't be because if/when he gets his leftwing government into power, they can do what they want to the UK people, unhindered and without the threat of interference from EU rules and/or the EU courts could it?

In his dreams maybe 😃

[panoma1]

10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

In his dreams maybe 😃

Hopefully! 😰

[Dave-G]

Hmm... If he's what it takes to get us out... I'd need to take a few pills and think a lot about that as I've about given up on May now TBH, and it looks like Cameron is about to try and wiggle back in.

[Rewulf]

40 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Hmm... If he's what it takes to get us out... I'd need to take a few pills and think a lot about that as I've about given up on May now TBH, and it looks like Cameron is about to try and wiggle back in.

Cameron has no credibility and no position, he literally gave up on politics and walked away.
He probably went round to Mays house for some cake 

Corbyn as prime minister (shudders !) doesnt bear thinking about.
If you think Mays weak, wait till him and his momentum cronies get a sniff of power !

From what Ive read this morning, and relying on my theory of the EU not accepting ANY deal put forward by us, we are on course for a no deal scenario.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/09/new-blow-to-may-as-eu-leaders-demand-scrutiny-of-brexit-deal

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-11-10/theresa-mays-deal-looks-dead-even-before-its-born/

[JohnfromUK]

Corbyn's Brexit man, Kier Starmer says he would only accept a 'deal' that gives us the same or better terms that we 'enjoy' now and keeps us in 'a' single market.

The ONLY way the EU will accept that is if we stay in the single market - and accept all of the rules that entails.  They have specifically said they will not let us 'pick what we want and reject what we don't want' because that would give us unfair advantages over others in their 'club'.  I think we can all understand that from their side.

Therefore the inescapable conclusion is that a 'Kier Starmer Brexit' would in effect mean remaining in the single market with all of the restrictions that entails - and is therefore Brexit in name only. (BRINO) - oh and we still get to pay the £40billion.

[12gauge82]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Cameron has no credibility and no position, he literally gave up on politics and walked away.
He probably went round to Mays house for some cake 

Corbyn as prime minister (shudders !) doesnt bear thinking about.
If you think Mays weak, wait till him and his momentum cronies get a sniff of power !

From what Ive read this morning, and relying on my theory of the EU not accepting ANY deal put forward by us, we are on course for a no deal scenario.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/09/new-blow-to-may-as-eu-leaders-demand-scrutiny-of-brexit-deal

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-11-10/theresa-mays-deal-looks-dead-even-before-its-born/

I hope your right about a no deal, but I think they've already got a deal and are putting a show on for the plebs so they don't see the stitch up to keep us aligned with the EU so they can sign us back up at a later date.

[old man]

On 03/11/2018 at 17:09, Rewulf said:

Varadkar says Brexit is straining UK /Irish relations 

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-fraying-uk-irish-relations-varadkar-warns-11543441

If he would grow a pair and stop answering to his master's in Brussels, he might find that between North and south , a solution is possible.

Britain has no interest in damaging it's relationship with Eire, or wrecking the good Friday agreement, and Ireland has nothing to gain from letting the EU railroad it into a hard border.

Varadkar wants to watch what he is remembered for.

Some Politicians don't seem to give a fig about the future never mind the past?

[Bazooka Joe]

Tony Abbot ex Australian PM sums it up nicely.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/tony-abbott-how-to-save-brexit/

It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.

The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.

But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.

Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.

Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).

UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.

As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it.

[old man]

On 09/11/2018 at 15:09, Dave-G said:

I can't speak for most leavers but I simply don't like the idea that unelected bullies have manipulated us and other countries into agreeing with any decision they like which is usually to their advantage and stripping assets from this country, and are trying to force us to succomb to their every court rulings for ever - and force us to allow ANY European people into our country as an compulsory part of customs free trading with them.

We were hoodwinked into joining their club under the pretence that it was merely a customs free trading agreement - the Common Market. They and even our own traiterous MP's have lied and lied to the electorate umpteen times.

Us British have simply had enough bossing us about basically, if it costs a bit more, or is inconvenient for a while then so be it.

Trying to bring some humour to this  situation?

Not quite so if memory serves,  the trade thing was just the starter?

John Major ( bless him) whilst under the intoxicating influence of a heady, spicy dish signed us up to " closer political union" He just got his unions confused maybe? 

Amazing what an inducement can do to confuse the senses?

[besty57]

1 hour ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Tony Abbot ex Australian PM sums it up nicely.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/tony-abbott-how-to-save-brexit/

It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.

The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.

But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.

Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.

Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).

UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.

As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it.

We need someone like him,instead we have T may,