The Next General Election.

[discobob]

You may think this is going off topic but please bear with it

I messed up at school and missed out on a technical apprenticeship in the RAF - I ended up joining the Army as an Operator in the Royal Signals just when a new field communication system was being introduced (Ptarmigan) and a lot of the work I was doing was the same as Technicians. I left after my year for the queen + 3 years man service. I then applied for the Navy as a Artificer (5 years training inc. a degree plus commission) but I had to be in by my 21st birthday. I couldn't due to my last day of Army service being the day before this birthday. I ended up joining the RAF as a Direct Entry Technician - this only garnered my an ONC, although I just missed out on getting a place at Shrivenham Defence Academy (University) . I then battled and got day release at college towards the end of my service and done a HND which got me launched on my civilian career, supported by my military service. I am a big believer in education - the RIGHT education.

Noa days - and I see it with my kids who are in 6th form and Year 4 (GCSE's) - all I can see is that children are encouraged to continue on the education path be it whatever - to then go to University to study a nonsense degree - get sidled with debt (which some will never repay and their debts are written off - against the tax payer) while parents are means tested towards the cost of their accommodation etc.. while kids with parents on benefits get the equivalent of the living wage to pay for their University ancillaries. Again a lot of these will be doing degrees that are nigh on useless, or even if they are not, there are so many going through Uni that the competition for any jobs is tremendous and a lot don't end up in the career they wanted to do.

I know of someone who got a first in Law from one of the top Uni's  - they are now a teacher due to being unable to get any employment in the Law field!!

In fact, a lot of employees are really unhappy at the level of Uni Graduates and some are now looking towards the Higher Apprenticeships, 6th form or even school leavers for their staff where right.

All this kids going to Uni is to keep the kids off the unemployment queues, indirectly taxing their parents and giving a lot of kids false hope. I will reiterate my earlier statement - THE RIGHT EDUCATION

[Mice!]

12 minutes ago, discobob said:

All this kids going to Uni is to keep the kids off the unemployment queues, indirectly taxing their parents and giving a lot of kids false hope. I will reiterate my earlier statement - THE RIGHT EDUCATION

Absolutely bang on disco Bob.

And well done, sounds like you've had an interesting time, cant be many folk who have been in the Army and Raf, and nearly the Navy.

 

[grrclark]

Aled and Discobob, you both have it right to my mind.

A successful education is the right one for the individual, it’s not about having a particular degree or a 1st from an Oxbridge or Ivy League uni.

What makes it successful and right?  The fact that it enables the individual to take advantage of opportunity afforded to them, to make better of their own abilities and deliver value into their own lives and the lives of others.  That value isn’t necessarily financial either.

[hedge]

1 hour ago, JDog said:

Hedge, that is a very narrow view.

Everyone in this country has the opportunity to be well educated. Many chose not to be. Education is a very great gift in a civilised society and it doesn't matter where that education is given it is a right and the opportunity should be grasped.

JDog - totally agree.

My post wasn't really about access to education but how well brought up individuals can be detached from what are perceived as real world issues.

Like I said, I was generalising massively in lieu of writing a history essay on the Landed Gentry v the Serfs etc. It was about the perception of rich v poor, upper class v working class and north v south. They are all well documented `them and us` scenarios. I believe that Parliament is heavily influenced by that, hence my earlier statement that a lot of people in Westminster can be detached from the `real world`.

I still believe, through life experience, that a being born into money makes a big difference in terms of your informative years and ultimately where a lot of people end up in life. Doesn't make them `better` but their views of what is/isn't a trauma/drama may be different.

As much as everyone is entitled to an education, I'm not sure that everyone can afford £15-£20k a year, per child, to send their kids to private schools. Doesn't necessarily make them any better but it gives them a good step up in life (the old boy network seems to like a good Eton/Harrow education).

A lot of politics and industry circles are based on networks, who you know (went to school with) etc etc. 

It's just an opinion - not trying to alter anyones views. It may be narrow, but it's just an opinion.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by hedge

[oowee]

9 minutes ago, grrclark said:

 

A successful education is the right one for the individual, it’s not about having a particular degree or a 1st from an Oxbridge or Ivy League uni.

What makes it successful and right?  The fact that it enables the individual to take advantage of opportunity afforded to them, to make better of their own abilities and deliver value into their own lives and the lives of others.  That value isn’t necessarily financial either.

This ^^^ 

With the proviso that we must keep pushing the overall standard of education achieved by the population as a whole. 

Education (degree or otherwise) is about so much more than simply improving employment prospects. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

This ^^^ 

With the proviso that we must keep pushing the overall standard of education achieved by the population as a whole. 

Education (degree or otherwise) is about so much more than simply improving employment prospects. 

Oh I completely agree, but we should not go down the Tony Blair route and expect everybody to go to University!

[grrclark]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

This ^^^ 

With the proviso that we must keep pushing the overall standard of education achieved by the population as a whole. 

Education (degree or otherwise) is about so much more than simply improving employment prospects. 

I agree entirely, my fear is that our universities in particular have stepped backwards in many ways as there is a lot of appeasement for fear of offending opinions, etc.  Higher education in especial must encourage challenge to accepted or received wisdom and part of that is offending sensitivities and held beliefs, that is why scholars were called heretics.

It’s the same as fixed curriculums, education has to be partly evolutionary as it reacts to environmental change as well as providing a base toolkit and being too outcome focussed can also be limiting.

We are guilty of trying to simplify too much to fit things into an orderly and neat box so we can easily measure it.

[Penelope]

14 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Oh I completely agree, but we should not go down the Tony Blair route and expect everybody to go to University!

I do sometimes wonder the reasoning in that, was it politically motivated to hopefully produce lots of little Labour voters?

Universities appear to be great places for indoctrination, if my two ex step kids are anything to go by. Flooded with right on, PC, climate changing, gender fluid, eco-mentalist, urban-centric viewpoints. And woe be tide, anyone that doesn't.

You'd think they would be the place for critical, balanced thought and reasoning.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Penelope

[Cosmicblue]

We should never lose sight of the fact that the Universities are in fact businesses where many sell 'education' successfully.   When I left school at 16 to start an apprenticeship just the top 5% made it to university and the majority would go on to complete a degree in something useful that would result in a career.

Now we have a crazy state where it seems every kid wants to head off to University and the education delivery businesses are all too keen to ensure that the student completes some useless course...of course now almost everyone has a degree and can't get a job the new guidance is to do a Masters as well...more debt.

A government with spine would provide a balanced educational system - perhaps where obtaining a degree in a technical/business subject might be fully/partly funded by the state.  

I have a mate with a daughter who has completed a BSc in 'Creative Writing' (no job prospects) and then an MSc in 'Journalism' - still no job so can currently be found working in Starbucks (with a massive debt burden).

Edited November 13, 2019 by Cosmicblue
typo

[TIGHTCHOKE]

14 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I do sometimes wonder the reasoning in that, was it politically motivated to hopefully produce lots of little Labour voters?

Universities appear to be great places for indoctrination, if my two ex step kids are anything to go by. Flooded with right on, PC, climate changing, gender fluid, eco-mentalist, urban-centric viewpoints. And woe be tide, anyone that doesn't.

You'd think they would be the place for critical, balanced thought and reasoning.

Yes you would hope so, but they haven't been for years!

[discobob]

I have a friend from the RAF who I was in training with and then at my last unit with - which was located not too far from Oxford. He paid for his wife to undertake a degree in Theology - I remember him saying that she will be able to get a good job in the government - when she finished it she ended up stacking shelves in Waitrose - and that was 20 years ago!!!

50 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Absolutely bang on disco Bob.

And well done, sounds like you've had an interesting time, cant be many folk who have been in the Army and Raf, and nearly the Navy.

 

Thanks - it was interesting and as both were in Comms I got some funny looks when I bumped into somebody I knew from the Army. In fact, when I was posted to Cyprus in the RAF it was to a Army garrison (Episkopi) and I knew more people from the Army than the RAF!! I used to look back and think what if I hadn't messed up at school for my O Levels. got in the Navy, made it to Shrivenham - but then I wouldn't have met my fantastic wife of 25 years (I think she looks at PW from time to time) or have my two brilliant kids which I am quite hard on but in the right way - but that is only to temper my wife who is as soft as mud with them

[Rewulf]

 

[oowee]

There are more votes in recruiting for the NHS from abroad than in training our own for the job. Anything that takes longer than two years to plan for is beyond the wit of our short term parliamentary system. How valuable to UK PLC would it be to have a set of agreed educational outputs at degree and technical levels? Yet look how hard it would be to achieve in the environment we have.

My daughter out of medical school with a student loan, when we have a shortage of doctors. Her friend with a masters in psychology with no student loan as its funded training due to a shortage of clinical psychologists.   How can that make sense?

[grrclark]

26 minutes ago, oowee said:

There are more votes in recruiting for the NHS from abroad than in training our own for the job. Anything that takes longer than two years to plan for is beyond the wit of our short term parliamentary system. How valuable to UK PLC would it be to have a set of agreed educational outputs at degree and technical levels? Yet look how hard it would be to achieve in the environment we have.

My daughter out of medical school with a student loan, when we have a shortage of doctors. Her friend with a masters in psychology with no student loan as its funded training due to a shortage of clinical psychologists.   How can that make sense?

Agreed, short termism that is driven by the electoral cycle and populism.

Ideally, the NHS and education should be depoliticised, at a campaigning level, with a cross party committee being responsible over 2 or 3 full parliamentary terms.

However, see how ineffective parliament has been with Brexit and then realise there is little chance of anything being devoid of partisan party politics.

That’s the good thing of a big thumping majority government, they can take bold steps, this narrow margin hug the centre approach of the last 9-14 years renders us impotent in making large policy movement and real beneficially disruptive change.

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Agreed, short termism that is driven by the electoral cycle and populism.

Ideally, the NHS and education should be depoliticised, at a campaigning level, with a cross party committee being responsible over 2 or 3 full parliamentary terms.

However, see how ineffective parliament has been with Brexit and then realise there is little chance of anything being devoid of partisan party politics.

That’s the good thing of a big thumping majority government, they can take bold steps, this narrow margin hug the centre approach of the last 9-14 years renders us impotent in making large policy movement and real beneficially disruptive change.

They can take bold steps for short term policy yes. Its the two party system itself that results in the hug the centre paralysis. The long term planning is simply beyond a first past the post system. Not least because the negotiation skills and politics of compromise are missing from the start of the process. A more balanced political system would force joint working, allowing for that long term policy development. 

All this Brexit stuff is simply an example of the two party politic system breakdown. We will need some divine intervention when we start trying to deal with the complex problems of climate change, resource management, and population control. 

[Gordon R]

It isn't going to change, however much anyone wants it to do so.

[henry d]

3 hours ago, Penelope said:

<snipped>

Universities appear to be great places for indoctrination, if my two ex step kids are anything to go by. Flooded with right on, PC, climate changing, gender fluid, eco-mentalist, urban-centric viewpoints. And woe be tide, anyone that doesn't.

You'd think they would be the place for critical, balanced thought and reasoning.

I'm sorry but based on your unbalanced, lack of reasoning and critique using the first paragraph above as the only proof, then you have just shot yourself in the foot.

From 2011 to 2015 I had to critique just about everything I read and the same for all my essays, as a matter of fact I was going through my notes today for a lecture at work so I happen to have them at hand...

[discobob]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

technical levels?

at 16 I was accepted into a Tec College buy the RAF talked me into doing a YTS while waiting - another possible missed opportunity - Now go and have a look how many Technical Colleges are left?? They have all rushed to become Universities now where the main business is accommodation from what I see happening in Chester and Liverpool.

I also believe that STEM (inc. medical - Nurses etc) should be funded because what these people put into society far outweighs any cost of funding them. Then we wouldn't need so many foreign skills to cover national shortfalls.

1 minute ago, henry d said:

I'm sorry but based on your unbalanced, lack of reasoning and critique using the first paragraph above as the only proof, then you have just shot yourself in the foot.

From 2011 to 2015 I had to critique just about everything I read and the same for all my essays, as a matter of fact I was going through my notes today for a lecture at work so I happen to have them at hand...

This reminds me of a favorite saying of my Dad :

It says OXO on buses but they don't sell them 😂

 

Reminds me of the HR literature that you see nowadays

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, discobob said:

at 16 I was accepted into a Tec College buy the RAF talked me into doing a YTS while waiting - another possible missed opportunity - Now go and have a look how many Technical Colleges are left?? They have all rushed to become Universities now where the main business is accommodation from what I see happening in Chester and Liverpool.

I also believe that STEM (inc. medical - Nurses etc) should be funded because what these people put into society far outweighs any cost of funding them. Then we wouldn't need so many foreign skills to cover national shortfalls.

[Retsdon]

It's the biggest scam ever. An unholy alliance between government, big business and the education 'industry' means that younger generations now are forced to pay for what used to be free vocational training. In the past, you joined a company and it trained you to do the job they required you for. And that's still largely the case in some countries like Germany. But the UK followed the US into monetizing everything that was possible to squeeze money from,  and the public was sold a bill of goods that 'flexibility' was the be all and end all. Really it was just an excuse to shift the cost of training from the employer to the employee. 

So now young adults who have the get up and go to want training go out into the world saddled with debt. Unbelievable really. I'm currently reading an autobiography written by someone who worked for the railways in the 19th century and even 150 years ago the railway companies weren't expecting their apprentices to pay for their own training. And by the age of 25 a man was getting on in life,  was on the plus side of the balance sheet, and had enough to settle down and start a family.

It comes to something when the country has gone backwards past the 19th century!

 

[grrclark]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

They can take bold steps for short term policy yes. Its the two party system itself that results in the hug the centre paralysis. The long term planning is simply beyond a first past the post system. Not least because the negotiation skills and politics of compromise are missing from the start of the process. A more balanced political system would force joint working, allowing for that long term policy development. 

All this Brexit stuff is simply an example of the two party politic system breakdown. We will need some divine intervention when we start trying to deal with the complex problems of climate change, resource management, and population control. 

Agreed, again.  A huge cultural shift and much less adversarial politics, but is the electorate ready or even equipped to handle that?

[Mice!]

41 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

. I'm currently reading an autobiography written by someone who worked for the railways in the 19th century and even 150 years ago the railway companies weren't expecting their apprentices to pay for their own training. And by the age of 25 a man was getting on in life,  was on the plus side of the balance sheet, and had enough to settle down and start a family.

Funny enough my nieces boyfriend has just started an apprenticeship with a rail firm, the first year is campus based and accommodation and food is played for, certainly not the norm these days.

And I agree that people going into the NHS should be able to do so without the debt, even if they made it like the military and you have to do X number of years service to negate the training fees. 

[Retsdon]

4 minutes ago, Mice! said:

even if they made it like the military and you have to do X number of years service to negate the training fees. 

Of course, that should be a given.

[Danger-Mouse]

On 12/11/2019 at 09:08, Penelope said:

Farewell and adieu!

Although she ain't Spanish and certainly not fair!!!

Ah I see you're a man of culture too.

[oowee]

3 hours ago, Mice! said:

Funny enough my nieces boyfriend has just started an apprenticeship with a rail firm, the first year is campus based and accommodation and food is played for, certainly not the norm these days.

And I agree that people going into the NHS should be able to do so without the debt, even if they made it like the military and you have to do X number of years service to negate the training fees. 

Even better if we could have a list of agreed professions, doctors, dentists, engineers, software designers or whatever were needed for UK plc and the cost of training for the first xyz thousand was met by the state.