Extreme pheasant shooting

[CharlieT]

8 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

what would you say would be an acceptable cartridge/kill ratio

The same as any shoot producing 40 - 45 yard birds.

Our best shot consistently shoots 2.5 to 1, day in day out. 

Never be fooled by ratios, because remember, they include all the both barrel shots at one bird.

[JDog]

The highest pheasants I have seen were on a shoot just south of Winsford in Devon.

We stood on the flat ground along the river Exe with a steep bank in front of us. The first birds must have been pushed out of a cover crop above the bank. Some were 120m high and were like tiny crosses in the sky. No shots were fired at these birds.

 

[welshwarrior]

Personally it’s about the guns knowing their limit I’ve not shot on a well known drive for the first half as they where beyond me the latter birds I could kill.  
 

I’ve turned inside out on a low drive of a well known high bird shoot in Devon due to  the way the keeper presented them they where only 40ft off the ground but much more challenging IMHO than the high signature drive.  

[wymberley]

45 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

What you and many others seem to have failed to grasp is that fact that high bird shoots, because of their topography, are able to present birds at distances in excess of 50 yards and as far as 100 yards +.

We, as a high bird shoot, do not expect or indeed condone guns addressing birds at distances above which a clean kill is not achievable by a competent shot.

The majority of our highest birds are taken at 60 -65 yards, although some of the birds presented are in excess of 30 yards above this, some even higher. It is the responsibility of guns to be selective and only address birds at a distance they can ensure a clean kill. After all, no responsible sportsman pulls the trigger at a bird they are not confident of killing.

All the detractors should buy a high bird day once in their life, pick the birds you are happy with and see what it's all about, you will be pleasantly surprised and will certainly enjoy your day watching guns address and cleanly kill some amazing birds rather than criticizing and scoffing at something you have no experience of.

I can't help but wonder how this thread would have worked out if the OP figure given was 60 and not the 80 yards that it was.

[GingerCat]

5 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I can't help but wonder how this thread would have worked out if the OP figure given was 60 and not the 80 yards that it was.

The right cart/choke Can give a usable pattern at 60 yards and it's at the limit really. 80 yards is 20 past it and wishful at best regardless of skill as the pattern simple is not there in a 12b.

I'll happily stick to 45 and sleep soundly. 

[JJsDad]

12 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I can't help but wonder how this thread would have worked out if the OP figure given was 60 and not the 80 yards that it was.

Also interesting was that despite the claims of 80 to 90 yard birds being were killed stone dead, was the comment from our high bird expert that he would attempt to get photo`s of the manufacturers 70 yard pattern plate ! If these wonderful advances in cartridge technology are as astounding as we are lead to believe, why are the makers testing at a mere 70 yards.

Be interesting to see what 34 or 36g of 3s look like at 70 yards if the evidence can be smuggled out. My guess is, more pheasant size holes in the pattern than an old dish clout, but I will try to keep an open mind.

Edited November 15, 2019 by JJsDad

[GingerCat]

I'm quite tempted to pattern some, given how wet it is I'd need a canoe at the minute. I can predict the results without getting wet so will stay inside for now. 

[islandgun]

2 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

I'm quite tempted to pattern some, given how wet it is I'd need a canoe at the minute. I can predict the results without getting wet so will stay inside for now. 

I did pattern at these ranges last time this topic was aired [last year ?] I managed to get some pellets in the circle at a hundred yrds, in hindsight i think i should have allowed for drop !.. This was in no way conclusive as im not all that great at shooting TBH..😀

[Perazzishot]

Video from today.

Clean kill at over 80 yards, it is pheasant.

 

[andrewluke]

you've only shown a single bird which happened to be one that was hit???

[Perazzishot]

Your point is caller?

 

[welshwarrior]

9 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Video from today.

Clean kill at over 80 yards, it is pheasant.

 

Upperwood?

[Perazzishot]

yes it is.

I suppose for everything written over the last 10 pages about pellets not having the penetration, heights are over exaggerated, you can't kill a pheasant at 80yds has just been put to bed. 

Single bird over a very skilled shooter able to read and lead that bird, that constantly fly like that on this drive and are killed on a regular basis.

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Perazzishot

[button]

1 hour ago, CharlieT said:

What you and many others seem to have failed to grasp is that fact that high bird shoots, because of their topography, are able to present birds at distances in excess of 50 yards and as far as 100 yards +.

We, as a high bird shoot, do not expect or indeed condone guns addressing birds at distances above which a clean kill is not achievable by a competent shot.

The majority of our highest birds are taken at 60 -65 yards, although some of the birds presented are in excess of 30 yards above this, some even higher. It is the responsibility of guns to be selective and only address birds at a distance they can ensure a clean kill. After all, no responsible sportsman pulls the trigger at a bird they are not confident of killing.

All the detractors should buy a high bird day once in their life, pick the birds you are happy with and see what it's all about, you will be pleasantly surprised and will certainly enjoy your day watching guns address and cleanly kill some amazing birds rather than criticizing and scoffing at something you have no experience of.

You opened yourself up now to been acused if not been able to judge distances!

Joking aside 100% agree with what you say!

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, CharlieT said:

What you and many others seem to have failed to grasp is that fact that high bird shoots, because of their topography, are able to present birds at distances in excess of 50 yards and as far as 100 yards +.

We, as a high bird shoot, do not expect or indeed condone guns addressing birds at distances above which a clean kill is not achievable by a competent shot.

The majority of our highest birds are taken at 60 -65 yards, although some of the birds presented are in excess of 30 yards above this, some even higher. It is the responsibility of guns to be selective and only address birds at a distance they can ensure a clean kill. After all, no responsible sportsman pulls the trigger at a bird they are not confident of killing.

All the detractors should buy a high bird day once in their life, pick the birds you are happy with and see what it's all about, you will be pleasantly surprised and will certainly enjoy your day watching guns address and cleanly kill some amazing birds rather than criticizing and scoffing at something you have no experience of.

I have killed many many birds at 80 yards bigger birds and tougher than pheasants with double the vulnerable target area. and i know how to lead a real 80 yard bird. 

 I want to see just one dimension of the 80 yard 12ga killing pattern not equated shot string lengths. Just the pattern of a 12ga load at 80 yards. lets take it from there.

When you fail to show me  effective patterns at 80 yards i invite you to show me 65 yard patterns. When those patterns look like carp which they will then we can get back to reality and start teaching you something sensible.

RANGE is my forte but 80 yards i need more than a scratty 12ga to deliver a decent killing pattern at that range and your not going to do any of that with a typical game gun set up regardless.

If were talking 4ga 8ga 10ga and heavier than lead we might with the right set up be in with a shout. Not talking theory here facts as in patterns for a start are needed.

Bring them on.!

[button]

31 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

you've only shown a single bird which happened to be one that was hit???

Still disputing it's possible? There you go, a few more

 

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, button said:

Still disputing it's possible? There you go, a few more

 

No real evidence of true range though, to attempt to kill anything at 60 80 or any yard range even 30 yards we firstly need to be 100% certain what we are shooting in our choice of gun is capable of a humane dispatch of whatever creature we are choosing to hunt.

  Only when we know we got the ammo then we can start to work out the rest of it. No loads no effective pattern its a no go right from the off. that’s why true sportsmen keep ranges sensible regardless of ability.

Others have asked , i have asked . AGAIN LETS SEE SOME PATTERNS.

Meanwile back at the ranch Tonto who had been patterning furiously had nailed his patterns to the mast in the form of dave curies patterning videos on youtube, Here he explains clearly his gun set up and what he likes to use, extensive ammo testing and measured ranges . show some merit the guy is trying credit to him. But 80 yards is a long way. we need to see these patterns first and foremost.

[welshwarrior]

54 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

yes it is.

I suppose for everything written over the last 10 pages about pellets not having the penetration, heights are over exaggerated, you can't kill a pheasant at 80yds has just been put to bed. 

Single bird over a very skilled shooter able to read and lead that bird, that constantly fly like that on this drive and are killed on a regular basis.

 

Hell of a shoot one of my favourites 

[Perazzishot]

Patterns are pointless as they don't take in the 3 dimensional shape of a shot string.

As for gaps in pattern, a pattern plate at 40 yards will show gaps that a snipe, mini clay, a midi clay and an edge on standard could fit in. They are very unlikely too because its small cloud in the air not a flat line of shot.

It dosen't show how the target moves into the pattern or how the string moves into the flight of the bird.

I know from clay shooting if you take a chippy front edge off a crosser you were too far in front give it slightly less lead and you get a proper break because it caught the end of the shot string. Likewise if you get a chippy rear end break you never gave it enough lead and you have caught it with the 1st bit of the pattern, give it bit more lead and it will take the full pattern.

That's how you correct your shooting by understanding what is happening.       

[lancer425]

22 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Patterns are pointless as they don't take in the 3 dimensional shape of a shot string.

As for gaps in pattern, a pattern plate at 40 yards will show gaps that a snipe, mini clay, a midi clay and an edge on standard could fit in. They are very unlikely too because its small cloud in the air not a flat line of shot.

It dosen't show how the target moves into the pattern or how the string moves into the flight of the bird.

I know from clay shooting if you take a chippy front edge off a crosser you were too far in front give it slightly less lead and you get a proper break because it caught the end of the shot string. Likewise if you get a chippy rear end break you never gave it enough lead and you have caught it with the 1st bit of the pattern, give it bit more lead and it will take the full pattern.

That's how you correct your shooting by understanding what is happening.       

OH! Dear!

 

Quick quote here . EX  BM  AKA. Derby acres bob.

. Some people still talk about the shot string length and how it makes some big difference in a shotgun pattern or how you need to lead a target differently because of the length of the shot string.

Get out a calculator and do some math. Use between 700 fps and 1000 fps for the shot speed.

Then use 40 mph for the target speed.

Even if your shot string is 60 ft long it is doing between 470 MPH "700 FPS" to 680 MPH "1000 FPS".

It is not very likely that you will get a 40 mph target to fly into the side of a 60 ft long shot string that is going 470 to 680 MPH.

If the shot is going faster than 1000 fps and the target is going slower than 40 mph that lessens the odds even more.


Why Shot String Does Not Matter

By Randy Wakeman

Often when attempting to extol the virtues of a gauge or shell, the notion that shotstring is somehow of tangible importance is often touted. Perhaps it is cited because most folks cannot easily measure shotstring. Performance claims that cannot be verified are some of the easiest to make.

A complete database of shotgun patterns will likely never be generated. It has been estimated that it would take 18 billion patterning tests, equating to 8 million man hours of work: and this estimate did not include a shot-stringing study. The December, 1927, American Rifleman gave summaries from L. C. Weldin (ballistics engineer, Hercules Powder) that showed pattern percentages from 19-95 percent with the same load and choke based on 4,000 patterns.

In the October, 1946 American Rifleman a difference of 20% between minimum and maximum pattern percentages was tabulated. Oberfell & Thompson (1957) pulled that in to about 10% variation, assuming same brand of shell and same gun. That remains as close a generalization as can be stated to the present day.

Despite the automatic vagaries of any statement about shot string, Major Gerald Burrard explained it well, and discounted it after his tests. Though a several foot long shot string exists, as the shot cloud is moving ten times (or faster) than any game the shot cloud can only string a matter of inches: a 5 inch shift of pattern center at 40 yards was documented with a 40 mph moving target at right angles. Oberfell and Thompson (The Mysteries of Shotgun Patterns) found the same, finding that it was no more important than the accuracy of the hold of the shotgun itself, and with the 10% variation from shell to shell became even less worthy of concern. This is for direct crossing shots. It is naturally of no concern for outgoing or incoming targets.

Bob Brister (Shotgunning, Art & Science) gave some treatment to the matter, being able to shoot at his wife driving the family car towing a long paper target. However, his tests were outdoors, ignoring actual shotshell patterning deviations. Finally, and most recently, E. D. Lowry revisited the subject in detail, and set the matter to rest for good, concluding that Major Burrard was right all along.

ShotString remains more fable than of tangible value, joining back-boring and gauge selection within reasonable limits as being at all meaningful. Yes, a shotstring has at least the potential to move your shot cloud's center by up to 4 or 5 inches or so at 40 yards. To get excited about that, limited only to faster crossing shots, would require us to somehow ignore that gravity often nets us over 3 inches of drop at 40 yards, and the pattern from your next shell can easily show a 5% loss of efficiency.

Maybe we would like to forget that shotshell shot is the infamously ballistically hideous roundball, with just a 10 mph cross-wind moving our killing pattern far more than any imagined shotstring ever possibly could? Nothing yet approaches the tangible value of load selection by personal patterning; that is shot with no strings attached..

 L425...We really do need to see these patterns. I am giving you chaps a chance.

I do not expect any uptake from you because your not about facts just fanning your tail feathers  out trying to look cute.

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by lancer425

[Perazzishot]

lancer forgive me for calling you out on this, but you have banged on about 4 bore, 8 bore 10 bore.

Then try and dismiss a shotstring comment using an article that dismisses your bore argument in the same research.

So you believe what you want to believe and dismiss the rest.😂😂

Huge Own Goal there mate in your trusted research papers.

ShotString remains more fable than of tangible value, joining back-boring and gauge selection within reasonable limits as being at all meaningful. Yes, a shotstring has at least the potential to move your shot cloud's center by up to 4 or 5 inches or so at 40 yards. To get excited about that, limited only to faster crossing shots, would require us to somehow ignore that gravity often nets us over 3 inches of drop at 40 yards, and the pattern from your next shell can easily show a 5% loss of efficiency.

10 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

OH! Dear!

 

Quick quote here . EX  BM  AKA. Derby acres bob.

. Some people still talk about the shot string length and how it makes some big difference in a shotgun pattern or how you need to lead a target differently because of the length of the shot string.

Get out a calculator and do some math. Use between 700 fps and 1000 fps for the shot speed.

Then use 40 mph for the target speed.

Even if your shot string is 60 ft long it is doing between 470 MPH "700 FPS" to 680 MPH "1000 FPS".

It is not very likely that you will get a 40 mph target to fly into the side of a 60 ft long shot string that is going 470 to 680 MPH.

If the shot is going faster than 1000 fps and the target is going slower than 40 mph that lessens the odds even more.


Why Shot String Does Not Matter

By Randy Wakeman

Often when attempting to extol the virtues of a gauge or shell, the notion that shotstring is somehow of tangible importance is often touted. Perhaps it is cited because most folks cannot easily measure shotstring. Performance claims that cannot be verified are some of the easiest to make.

A complete database of shotgun patterns will likely never be generated. It has been estimated that it would take 18 billion patterning tests, equating to 8 million man hours of work: and this estimate did not include a shot-stringing study. The December, 1927, American Rifleman gave summaries from L. C. Weldin (ballistics engineer, Hercules Powder) that showed pattern percentages from 19-95 percent with the same load and choke based on 4,000 patterns.

In the October, 1946 American Rifleman a difference of 20% between minimum and maximum pattern percentages was tabulated. Oberfell & Thompson (1957) pulled that in to about 10% variation, assuming same brand of shell and same gun. That remains as close a generalization as can be stated to the present day.

Despite the automatic vagaries of any statement about shot string, Major Gerald Burrard explained it well, and discounted it after his tests. Though a several foot long shot string exists, as the shot cloud is moving ten times (or faster) than any game the shot cloud can only string a matter of inches: a 5 inch shift of pattern center at 40 yards was documented with a 40 mph moving target at right angles. Oberfell and Thompson (The Mysteries of Shotgun Patterns) found the same, finding that it was no more important than the accuracy of the hold of the shotgun itself, and with the 10% variation from shell to shell became even less worthy of concern. This is for direct crossing shots. It is naturally of no concern for outgoing or incoming targets.

Bob Brister (Shotgunning, Art & Science) gave some treatment to the matter, being able to shoot at his wife driving the family car towing a long paper target. However, his tests were outdoors, ignoring actual shotshell patterning deviations. Finally, and most recently, E. D. Lowry revisited the subject in detail, and set the matter to rest for good, concluding that Major Burrard was right all along.

ShotString remains more fable than of tangible value, joining back-boring and gauge selection within reasonable limits as being at all meaningful. Yes, a shotstring has at least the potential to move your shot cloud's center by up to 4 or 5 inches or so at 40 yards. To get excited about that, limited only to faster crossing shots, would require us to somehow ignore that gravity often nets us over 3 inches of drop at 40 yards, and the pattern from your next shell can easily show a 5% loss of efficiency.

Maybe we would like to forget that shotshell shot is the infamously ballistically hideous roundball, with just a 10 mph cross-wind moving our killing pattern far more than any imagined shotstring ever possibly could? Nothing yet approaches the tangible value of load selection by personal patterning; that is shot with no strings attached..

 L425...We really do need to see these patterns. I am giving you chaps a chance.

I do not expect any uptake from you because your not about facts just fanning your tail feathers  out trying to look cute.

 

 

[Old farrier]

A question if I may

lots of talker of patterns I’m assuming there done horizontally 

surely when shooting nearly vertical the pattern would be different 

as is the drop on a rifle bullet chit horizontally it drops more than shot at a high angle over the same distance 

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

lancer forgive me for calling you out on this, but you have banged on about 4 bore, 8 bore 10 bore.

Then try and dismiss a shotstring comment using an article that dismisses your bore argument in the same research.

So you believe what you want to believe and dismiss the rest.😂😂

Huge Own Goal there mate in your trusted research papers.

ShotString remains more fable than of tangible value, joining back-boring and gauge selection within reasonable limits as being at all meaningful. Yes, a shotstring has at least the potential to move your shot cloud's center by up to 4 or 5 inches or so at 40 yards. To get excited about that, limited only to faster crossing shots, would require us to somehow ignore that gravity often nets us over 3 inches of drop at 40 yards, and the pattern from your next shell can easily show a 5% loss of efficiency.

 

Its no home goal the bore is just a bore size but case length and volume now we are talking payload payload means pellets more pellets one begats the other no home goal at all 3.5 to 40 0z of 4s 500 pellets or more more than twice the 12 vload.  No home goal big payloads needed at those ranges and we still need to see these patterns.

[Perazzishot]

*** this is getting embarrassing 

ShotString remains more fable than of tangible value, joining back-boring and gauge selection

[lancer425]

7 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

A question if I may

lots of talker of patterns I’m assuming there done horizontally 

surely when shooting nearly vertical the pattern would be different 

as is the drop on a rifle bullet chit horizontally it drops more than shot at a high angle over the same distance 

Patterns not point of impact , that can come latter we need to see patterns ok it lacks dimension but its where you have to start regardless of who you are or your ability. at 80 yards you need all the help you can get.

2 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

*** this is getting embarrassing 

ShotString remains more fable than of tangible value, joining back-boring and gauge selection

Just cough up these patterns stop dodging the facts with inhane jibes. Get some facts up on here lets se what we are dealing with exactly.