Extreme pheasant shooting

[motty]

3 hours ago, CharlieT said:

What you and many others seem to have failed to grasp is that fact that high bird shoots, because of their topography, are able to present birds at distances in excess of 50 yards and as far as 100 yards +.

We, as a high bird shoot, do not expect or indeed condone guns addressing birds at distances above which a clean kill is not achievable by a competent shot.

The majority of our highest birds are taken at 60 -65 yards, although some of the birds presented are in excess of 30 yards above this, some even higher. It is the responsibility of guns to be selective and only address birds at a distance they can ensure a clean kill. After all, no responsible sportsman pulls the trigger at a bird they are not confident of killing.

All the detractors should buy a high bird day once in their life, pick the birds you are happy with and see what it's all about, you will be pleasantly surprised and will certainly enjoy your day watching guns address and cleanly kill some amazing birds rather than criticizing and scoffing at something you have no experience of.

You must have been reading a slightly different thread to me. I have seen criticism of folk that claim 80-90 yard pheasants can be consistently killed.

[motty]

19 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Its no home goal the bore is just a bore size but case length and volume now we are talking payload payload means pellets more pellets one begats the other no home goal at all 3.5 to 40 0z of 4s 500 pellets or more more than twice the 12 vload.  No home goal big payloads needed at those ranges and we still need to see these patterns.

You won't convince him. He thinks he knows it all, but appears to know very little. He has blinkers on!

Your argument has merit. Larger gauge equals bigger payload. Bigger payloads will usually equal denser patterns. It isn't rocket science.

[lancer425]

2 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

Your point is caller?

 

We need to see some patterns , we have to we True sportsmen and women that is rely on doing the utmost to be humane, we do that by sharpening our teeth teeth in this case being pellets and pellets in a pattern a good pattern. we need to go there first. if not we risk wounding maming crippling call it what you like but we do not like doing it its wrong its against everything we stand for and why most of us shoot things at realistic ranges and dont stretch our barrels.

Ignoring all the above and fluking out birds is the realm of the cowboy the USA term A Skybuster.

Lets see some patterns see what you chaps are all about and where you fit in the spectrum  of real hunters.

I could bang this drum all day i know you will post no patterns.

[Perazzishot]

As already quoted on this thread, shotstring at 80yds is 20ft so of course it makes a difference on a bird flying between 40-60mph.

A pattern plate makes no difference.

But when Robert Everett from Hull tells me the best pattern and penetration he gets at 70yds is from 34/4 in an 18.4bore barrel using fibre through a 5/8th choke and that would be his recommendation for high pheasants why do I need to go and shoot bits of paper.

I'm sponsored (to a degree) by a different manufacturer for clays but don't get on with their game cartridges despite been given 000's to use, I know of 2 cartridges that work for me on game and this season switching to full fibre Hull HPE 34/4 are working as they are with many in our group of high bird shooters. It's a change I've grudgingly taken as I've never been a fan of Hull, but I can not and will not fault how good these shells are through 18.4 bore barrels. Having already shot 5000 this game season I think I have a good scope to comment on what they are capable off without going to shoot a bit of paper!

[motty]

22 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

*** this is getting embarrassing 

ShotString remains more fable than of tangible value, joining back-boring and gauge selection

I imagine in this instance, gauge selection is with reference to a shooter choosing a load which can be fired comfortably through a couple of different bore sizes (30gm 6 through 12 or 20) and picking one gauge over the other due to some mythical supposed advantage.

[lancer425]

24 minutes ago, motty said:

You won't convince him. He thinks he knows it all, but appears to know very little. He has blinkers on!

Your argument has merit. Larger gauge equals bigger payload. Bigger payloads will usually equal denser patterns. It isn't rocket science.

Look your not green as grass i know that .  come on , 80 yards is a heck of a distance even for a big gun.  any gun needs work a lot of work/time trial and error to get decent patterns at that range , that you can then use to good effect at longer ranges if that person got the background and  experience which leads ultimately by being truly efficient , which is after all the credibility these chaps crave, they are just going about it in the wrong way..

Real sportsmen wind in their necks keep ranges sane for everything and everybody’s sake.

Bust clays ok they got no pulse.

But birds any bird we all owe it to them  to be on our game . Now once we put these big ranges in we then got even more to take into account, and what they are doing and what they are doing it with  falls  way short of their requirements.

And in the case of anything alive it is not ethical, unless they have secret cartridges we can see the patterns from. .

 They need to go big or go home perhaps  they should stick to bitumen .

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by lancer425

[Perazzishot]

50 minutes ago, motty said:

You won't convince him. He thinks he knows it all, but appears to know very little. He has blinkers on!

Your argument has merit. Larger gauge equals bigger payload. Bigger payloads will usually equal denser patterns. It isn't rocket science.

video evidence and achieved bags and personal testimony all fall into irrelevance then Motty.

Have you ever actually pulled the trigger without looking at a handbook as to what you are supposed to do with a bird at X yds or do you have an app on your phone to help you 🙄

[yickdaz]

51 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

video evidence and achieved bags and personal testimony all fall into irrelevance then Motty.

Have you ever actually pulled the trigger without looking at a handbook as to what you are supposed to do with a bird at X yds or do you have an app on your phone to help you 🙄

hows does looking at a handbook help you shooting at moving targets when you are actually shooting in a field, instinct and experience is all you need surely ?

[Big Mat]

7 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

video evidence and achieved bags and personal testimony all fall into irrelevance then Motty.

Have you ever actually pulled the trigger without looking at a handbook as to what you are supposed to do with a bird at X yds or do you have an app on your phone to help you 🙄

Has anyone ever accurately measured the high of these pheasants?

[Hamster]

9 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

 

Have you ever actually pulled the trigger without looking at a handbook as to what you are supposed to do with a bird at X yds or do you have an app on your phone to help you 🙄

Never even met the guy but I’d put money on him outshooting you in a pigeon hide on birds out to 60 yards, beyond that you suddenly and incomprehensible become more skilled and talented. 

[motty]

10 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

video evidence and achieved bags and personal testimony all fall into irrelevance then Motty.

Have you ever actually pulled the trigger without looking at a handbook as to what you are supposed to do with a bird at X yds or do you have an app on your phone to help you 🙄

I don't have a problem with high bird shooting. I do have an issue with 90 yard pheasants and clean, consistent kills.

The bags are obviously shot - many will be well under 90 yards. The wounded that are seen to be clean misses is the main problem.

[lancer425]

Well the silence is deafening we are not going to see any patterns.

So as a point if interest and to try and add some common sense to all this. lets look at this video its a popular turkey load of 2 oz of  5s .

 Shot through a turkey choke and a goose choke both patternmasters.

This is 680 pellets in these loads typical heavy game loads will be around 200 pellets.

It is not scientific but it shows clearly even with 3.5 inch turkey loads designed for long range through dedicated turkey and waterfowl choke tubes 80 yards is . a long way for a shotgun. draw your own conclusions. its not rocket science.

 

[wymberley]

On 13/11/2019 at 19:47, button said:

Well watch it then and then comment afterwards 

Care to explain?

Apologies, I missed this. However, it's worked out well as you don't have to pay attention to me as you can see what the Big Boys have to say about pattenn density discepencies on some of the posts on Page 10. I obviously don't know whether or not you have patterned your gun/s and if so, how many shots you use per test, but the fact of the matter is there will be these discrepencies which are part and parcel of shotgun "life". Chucking the poor target in the bin because it doesn't suit your needs in reality is the same as engaging a target which is way beyond your and your gun's capability to reach.

[lancer425]

5 hours ago, Big Mat said:

Has anyone ever accurately measured the high of these pheasants?

I doubt that very much. i think this thread title needs changing to.

Extreme over estimated range pheasant shooting.

[wymberley]

13 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

*** this is getting embarrassing 

ShotString remains more fable than of tangible value, joining back-boring and gauge selection

Just to clear up one possible misunderstanding: It was mentioned that the string could be up to a given length at a given distance. I posted the picture purely to show that this was an understatement. The fact that one can look at it and ask what is it telling me in this instance is entiely besides the point.

Burrard does indeed say in his Magnum Opus that shotstring is of no consequence, but then goes on to say up to some 50 yards - this bit was omitted by the author quoting his work, possibly to suit his own agenda. He (Burrard) also then advocates elsewhere that in deducing a required patten density for any given species one should allow 10% for the effect of stringing. As ever, you pays your money and takes your choice.

I'm with GC on this. I can see what the BRL picure is telling me so I'll just settle and rest easy.

[islandgun]

200yds and a drop of 16 ft  😁 

[lancer425]

9 minutes ago, islandgun said:

200yds and a drop of 16 ft  😁 

And just pellet marks on boon not burst in some shots.

[wymberley]

Have just this minute been made aware that there is a piece on pattern testing in the current BASC magazine. Am wondereing if this is based on the longstanding article on their web site (no longer visible to non members).

[rbrowning2]

They look to be 3.5inch 2oz (56gm) of shot plastic wads and Winchester talk about 60yards pattern.

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Shotshell/Long-Beard-XR/STLB12L5

 

[lancer425]

9 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

They look to be 3.5inch 2oz (56gm) of shot plastic wads and Winchester talk about 60yards pattern.

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Shotshell/Long-Beard-XR/STLB12L5

 

I imagine same ammo used in the turkey and goose choke test i posted here earlier. 

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Have just this minute been made aware that there is a piece on pattern testing in the current BASC magazine. Am wondereing if this is based on the longstanding article on their web site (no longer visible to non members).

BASC selling the move to steel shot and the comparing Eley VIP Steel Pro Eco wad , Gamebore bio-wad silver steel and a popular plastic wad steel load.

Half choke pattern at 35yards 30inch circle

Eley 3 shot 153 Eley 5 shot 231 Gamebore 4 shot 178 and popular 4 shot 226   Averages from five patterns fired from each cartridge.

Eley £290/1000 Gamebore £432/1000 and popular £239/1000

You would think they would have used the same shot size for all the cartridges tested as it is only the Gamebore and popular are shot size 4.

 

[Dave at kelton]

6 hours ago, lancer425 said:

I doubt that very much. i think this thread title needs changing to.

Extreme over estimated range pheasant shooting.

 I thought you may be interested in some facts on range. I have looked out the OS Ranger for the highest partridge drive I know of. Guns stand in a valley and birds launch at the highest point, based on the contours, 100m above the valley floor and possibly slightly more. They fly to the opposite side landing at around 60 to 70 m above the valley floor. So the highest birds, and that is not all of them by any means, are crossing between 60 and 100 m above the guns. Few fly along the valley losing height on this drive.

The topography for the highest pheasant drive has very similar statistics except the birds fly from further back and tend to be descending.

Contrast that with a more typical drive and the highest birds are coming from 50 to 80m and either crossing to a similar height or coming down the valley and losing height so could be as low as 20m. Most guns on these drives will take the medium to high birds and the low ones are left.

I say this as it simply demonstrates as a matter of fact based on OS data what these shoots are capable of showing. There are no grounds for suggesting that ranges are over estimated. It is not rocket science. If a bird wants to fly between two given points it’s height is more or less certain. Most teams return year after year or several times a season. We all know what each is capable of and the drives will be selected accordingly.

I refrain from any comment on ethics, sportsmanship, ballistics, luck or skill. My job is to pick birds I just have the pleasant job in between of watching guns shoot one of the countries premier estates and then work my dogs to the best of my, or their, ability. My only contribution to this debate is to state what I observe on that estate throughout the season.

[figgy]

More worrying is why BASC are pushing steel so hard and justifying it.  They know something they not telling us.

[wymberley]

47 minutes ago, figgy said:

More worrying is why BASC are pushing steel so hard and justifying it.  They know something they not telling us.

Possibly something to do with the supermarket game sales as has recently been mentioned? Bit of an incentive for P'shot to see what Hull can come up with, perhaps.

[wymberley]

Guys,

If we can keep the steel shot and its feasibility discussion linked to the topic in hand, then all well and good, but if it looks as though a Post might go off at a tangent then it would probably be better to start another thread.