Extreme pheasant shooting

[steve s×s]

On 15/09/2021 at 20:58, Scully said:

There is no lead ban. 

Correct Scully and I wish more shooters took the same positive thinking 

[mgsontour]

I was on high pheasants last year for the 1st time and did ok-ish using 38grms with full chokes ( that's what was recommended to me ) and wouldn't been keen to go back as I thought they were on the extreme range of a shotgun and definitely injured a few

[Stonepark]

2 hours ago, mgsontour said:

I was on high pheasants last year for the 1st time and did ok-ish using 38grms with full chokes ( that's what was recommended to me ) and wouldn't been keen to go back as I thought they were on the extreme range of a shotgun and definitely injured a few

38g size no?

[mgsontour]

10 hours ago, Stonepark said:

38g size no?

Eley Max 3's and as I say not one of my finest days, the birds resembled sparrows in size when they were flushed and were an unbelievable speed by the time they reached us. The pickers were a few hundred yards behind; obviously through experience. If it's your thing, your good enough and have a wallet to match extreme pheasant shooting will probably be amazing and a great day but for a working man who wants some sport it's out of reach in more than one way but everyone's different I suppose

[grahamch]

Hopefully a lead shot ban will end this type of shooting that does our sport no good

[Stonepark]

Mgsontour, not a critisim of you but just my general thoughts....

Extreme High Bird Shooting is not something that would attract me without the proper ammunition (eg 36g to 40g no 7 TSS) as no lighter pellet material such as Lead can hold a pattern at a distance over 60 yards in 12b 2.75 inch or 3 inch, (though 63g No4 lead 6% antimony shot in 3.5 inch has potentially a 70 yard range, but no commercial manufacturer exists and the recoil would be stout to say the least), but with standard loadings,  large enough individual Lead pellets will still have high enough energy to kill if they strike something vital (and the fall from that sort of height will kill any birds that have broken wings or are stunned in one way or another and unable to control their descent), but they do not kill with the consistantly that is required to be humane and therefore sporting in my opionion.

Tom Roster reccommends at least 90-95 pellets in a 30 inch circle to kill a cock pheasant reliably and which is a bit light for traditional pheasant shooting in the UK where we historically have favoured about 120 pellets, (though I tend to prefer 150 pellets) but note that the above is the difference between 6, 7.5 and 9 pellets respectively in total striking the  pheasant.

Assuming the gun/ammo combo being used loses no efficency (soft shot, poor sealing, chokes not perfect etc), even with full choke, at best, 38g no3 only gives 58 pellets in 30 inch circle at 60 yards and which this may only result in 3.5 strikes in total to the area of the bird, of which only 1 pellet on average would hit a vital spot, average being exactly that.

Obviously at a further distance, this becomes even worse...

 

To simplyfy this and translate into practice, assuming every bird was in centre of pattern each time at 60 yards the best that can be hoped for is as follows ....

5% would pass through unscathed,

30% would be pricked and noted as hit but no pellets in vital spot and able to fly on, perhaps to die later or may recover if all wounds superfical.

30% 1 pellet hitting vital spot, dying in air (stunned, lung shot, liver shot, artery/vein bleeding out) but more likely ground impact finishing them off

30% 1 pellet hitting vital spot, dead on impact (brain, neck spinal column, heart kills)

5% would have up to 2 pellets hitting a vital spot, most likely dead on impact.

Essentially on a really high bird day, people are morally accepting a minimum of a 30% pricked rate, no matter how good of a shot they are, but due to distance judgement and level of skill involved, it is probably closer to 50%, yet anywhere else in our sport we are effectively encouraged along the lines of ensuring that all quarry is treated with respect, including shooting it at distances within the capability of the gun and ammunition to ensure a clean kill every time.

 

[London Best]

The 58 pellets of No.3 in a 30 inch circle at 60 yards with 38 gram loads through a full choke puts it all in perspective. “Normal” shotguns are not made for shooting game at that range. The 63 gram load quoted is more suitable for a 13/14 lb 8 bore.

[Old farrier]

34 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Hopefully a lead shot ban will end this type of shooting that does our sport no good

Why’s that?

the lead shot ban will help as I’m going to use tss for this season 

is it any different to shooting at extreme range ducks or geese 

except in the cost 

[button]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Why’s that?

the lead shot ban will help as I’m going to use tss for this season 

is it any different to shooting at extreme range ducks or geese 

except in the cost 

👍

[wymberley]

5 hours ago, grahamch said:

Hopefully a lead shot ban will end this type of shooting that does our sport no good

Sorry, but as is already obvious, hope just died.

[Shotkam]

Wow, this is a long long string of posts !

The science doesn't lie and within reason , everything else is wishful thinking. 

 

For what its worth and having a pattern plate of my own, here is my view:

Any Pheasant, providing it is shot before passing at 90 degrees to the shooter and if completely within the pattern will statistically / also based on my experience  - be dead if you adopt the following:

Black gold 32 gram 5s (4 1/3Uk) in 1/2 Teague choke in 20 guage < 55 yards

Black gold 34 gram 41/2 s (4 Uk) in 3/4 Teague choke in 20 guage < 60 yards

As these are the only cartridges I use and have used a shotkam for years, I have confidence to say what I suggest is reasonably accurate. How this compares with different brands I have no idea.

 

A range greater that 60 yards with these loads would not be in the spirit of shooting and I find you feel far better not to have raised the gun, especially on cock birds once a bird is much over 60 yards.

On most shoots you would be hard pressed to see a 60 yard driven bird  whatever is claimed.

A 60 yard Cock Pheasant is a formidable adversary !

A 70 yard monster may well be effectively killed using 42 gram 3s with full choke, but the chances of even the best shots putting the full bird within the pattern consistently is not probable and as has been clearly stated as soon as you pass circa 60 yards, basically all loads fail to give patterns that will kill consistently.

I am interested to hear others views as to wether they think as I do, that 60 yards is the absolutely maximum range for a driven bird on which you can see all the vital organs when you actually pull the trigger.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Shotkam

[London Best]

I, for one, don’t believe there IS a pattern at 70 yards with 42 gram 3’s.

[Scully]

8 hours ago, grahamch said:

Hopefully a lead shot ban will end this type of shooting that does our sport no good

I can’t seem to get this through to folk, but THERE IS NO LEAD BAN! 

It is the killing of birds for sport that does our sport no good, and nothing else. 
You’re part of it. If you’re not happy with that then stop doing it. It’s not compulsory. 

[button]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

I can’t seem to get this through to folk, but THERE IS NO LEAD BAN! 

It is the killing of birds for sport that does our sport no good, and nothing else. 
You’re part of it. If you’re not happy with that then stop doing it. It’s not compulsory. 

👍

[London Best]

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

I can’t seem to get this through to folk, but THERE IS NO LEAD BAN! 

It is the killing of birds for sport that does our sport no good, and nothing else. 
You’re part of it. If you’re not happy with that then stop doing it. It’s not compulsory. 

Not just for sport, mate, but killing them for any reason.

[Scully]

23 minutes ago, London Best said:

Not just for sport, mate, but killing them for any reason.

Yep. 👍

[wymberley]

David Bellamy did us all a favour by educating a fair percentage of the population to the fact that the act of killing in itself was/is not cruel. As a thank you, we in turn proceed to give him a bloody nose by our determination to demonstrate that we couldn't care less about the true definition of cruelty which is the - and also just happens to be our -  indifference to suffering.

Our UK game pattern percentages distances bottle out at 60 yards. The one well known (Lowry) pattern pellet distribution table tops out at 80% pattern at one end of the scale and 40 the other. Why is that?

If anything, it'll be this indifference and our haven't got a clue attitude is what will initiate our demise. We are lucky in as much as what one member has said several times, the vast majority of folk don't really care or know what we do.

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, wymberley said:

David Bellamy did us all a favour by educating a fair percentage of the population to the fact that the act of killing in itself was/is not cruel. As a thank you, we in turn proceed to give him a bloody nose by our determination to demonstrate that we couldn't care less about the true definition of cruelty which is the - and also just happens to be our -  indifference to suffering.

Our UK game pattern percentages distances bottle out at 60 yards. The one well known (Lowry) pattern pellet distribution table tops out at 80% pattern at one end of the scale and 40 the other. Why is that?

If anything, it'll be this indifference and our haven't got a clue attitude is what will initiate our demise. We are lucky in as much as what one member has said several times, the vast majority of folk don't really care or know what we do.

Do UK game pattern percentages take into account such things as modern propellants, wads, larger shot, and tighter chokes as used by extreme bird shooters? I’m not an ‘extreme’ shooter, so genuinely don’t know. I do know there are cartridge manufacturers still developing and selling ‘extreme’ loads in lead, do UK game pattern percentages take these into account? 
I’d like to think I know my limits, but like anyone else there’s every now and then that  ‘ I reckon I could get that one’ or the ‘ooooh, look at that one!’ which requires a bit of stretching when stood on a peg. It’s either killed or cleanly missed….or was it? 
It can’t be denied that those who do participate do indeed bring down some high birds, although no one knows how many are wounded to quietly sulk off and die later in the day to be eventually picked up ( or not ) but that also applies to any type of shooting, extreme or otherwise. 
We all shoot for enjoyment, and while we all miss and regrettably indeed wound, extreme ranges aren’t always the reason, so while we’re all in the business of killing for entertainment, sport, the challenge or whatever we choose to call it, we’re hardly in any position to criticise others who do the same. 
We can of course take steps to try to ensure we wound as rarely as possible, but there is no one on this forum who hasn’t wounded something they’ve shot, and not being able to recover it, who has then decided to do it no more. 

[Shotkam]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

I, for one, don’t believe there IS a pattern at 70 yards with 42 gram 3’s.

Fair comment and as we know denser pattern with 4's but then it's back to the energy threshold, which is why I cap the limit at 60 yards and probably yourself. After all anything approaching 60 yards is a mega bird 🙂

[wymberley]

12 hours ago, Scully said:

Do UK game pattern percentages take into account such things as modern propellants, wads, larger shot, and tighter chokes as used by extreme bird shooters? I’m not an ‘extreme’ shooter, so genuinely don’t know. I do know there are cartridge manufacturers still developing and selling ‘extreme’ loads in lead, do UK game pattern percentages take these into account? 
I’d like to think I know my limits, but like anyone else there’s every now and then that  ‘ I reckon I could get that one’ or the ‘ooooh, look at that one!’ which requires a bit of stretching when stood on a peg. It’s either killed or cleanly missed….or was it? 
It can’t be denied that those who do participate do indeed bring down some high birds, although no one knows how many are wounded to quietly sulk off and die later in the day to be eventually picked up ( or not ) but that also applies to any type of shooting, extreme or otherwise. 
We all shoot for enjoyment, and while we all miss and regrettably indeed wound, extreme ranges aren’t always the reason, so while we’re all in the business of killing for entertainment, sport, the challenge or whatever we choose to call it, we’re hardly in any position to criticise others who do the same. 
We can of course take steps to try to ensure we wound as rarely as possible, but there is no one on this forum who hasn’t wounded something they’ve shot, and not being able to recover it, who has then decided to do it no more. 

What a pair! You genuinely don't know and I haven't a clue. Explaining that you know a definitive answer is not possible because of the many variables, but while assuming all things are equal. why not ask one of the extreme loaders what pattern you could conceivably expect at 80 yards from your standard 28" 12 bore with Full chole using their top end extreme pheasant cartridge? I appreciate the chances of a reply are somewhat slim - as will be the pattern -but should you receive one, please put it up on here.

Edited September 19, 2021 by wymberley

[Shotkam]

15 hours ago, wymberley said:

David Bellamy did us all a favour by educating a fair percentage of the population to the fact that the act of killing in itself was/is not cruel. As a thank you, we in turn proceed to give him a bloody nose by our determination to demonstrate that we couldn't care less about the true definition of cruelty which is the - and also just happens to be our -  indifference to suffering.

Our UK game pattern percentages distances bottle out at 60 yards. The one well known (Lowry) pattern pellet distribution table tops out at 80% pattern at one end of the scale and 40 the other. Why is that?

If anything, it'll be this indifference and our haven't got a clue attitude is what will initiate our demise. We are lucky in as much as what one member has said several times, the vast majority of folk don't really care or know what we do.

Wymberley, as you have a good knowledge of shotgun ballistics and access to data, would you kindly crunch the numbers for Black Gold Fibre 32 gram Uk 4 1/3 and 34 gram Uk 4 in a 20 guage and give the maximum range for each with a given choke that a driven Pheasant can be humanely / consistently killed if it is within the pattern ?

 

[London Best]

15 hours ago, Shotkam said:

I cap the limit at 60 yards and probably yourself. 

As far as I am concerned the effective range of a shotgun is forty to forty five yards. I consciously try not to shoot any further.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Shotkam said:

Wymberley, as you have a good knowledge of shotgun ballistics and access to data, would you kindly crunch the numbers for Black Gold Fibre 32 gram Uk 4 1/3 and 34 gram Uk 4 in a 20 guage and give the maximum range for each with a given choke that a driven Pheasant can be humanely / consistently killed if it is within the pattern ?

 

Pleasure. I've already had a quick look after your last post. It's not a problem as I can calculate it, but is your 4&1/3 a misprint for 4&1/2 or actually as stated? if it's the latter I'll need the number of pellets per ounce although taking a flyer at 190 wouldn't be too shabby a guess.

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Shotkam said:

Wymberley, as you have a good knowledge of shotgun ballistics and access to data, would you kindly crunch the numbers for Black Gold Fibre 32 gram Uk 4 1/3 and 34 gram Uk 4 in a 20 guage and give the maximum range for each with a given choke that a driven Pheasant can be humanely / consistently killed if it is within the pattern ?

 

Assuming 120 pellets in 30 inch circle UK no 4 3.1mm and UK 3.0mm: -

Full - 44 yards and 46 yards

Imp Mod - 43 yards and 44 yards

Mod - 40 yards and 41 yards

IC - 38  yards and 39 yards

Skeet - 35 yards and 36 yards

C - 30 yards and 31 yards

 

Assuming Tom Rosters 95 pellets in 30 inch circle for Uk 3.1mm and 3.0mm

Full - 52 yards & 53 yards

Imp Mod - 49 yards and 50 yards

Mod - 47 yards and 48 yards

IC - 45 yards and 46 yards

Skeet - 43 yards and 44 yards

C - 36 yards and 38 yards

 

At maximum pattern distance of 53 yards, each pellet still has around 2 ftlbs of energy.

 

On the other hand 34g of UK5.5 2.7mm for 120 pellets and 95 pellets would give the following: -

Full - 50 yards & 55 yards

Imp Mod - 48 yards and 53 yards

Mod - 45 yards and 51 yards

IC - 44 yards and 49 yards

Skeet - 40 yards and 46 yards

C - 35 yards and 41 yards

Each pellet would have 1.25ftlbs energy at 55 yards, still plenty enough to do the job.

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Stonepark

[Shotkam]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Pleasure. I've already had a quick look after your last post. It's not a problem as I can calculate it, but is your 4&1/3 a misprint for 4&1/2 or actually as stated? if it's the latter I'll need the number of pellets per ounce although taking a flyer at 190 wouldn't be too shabby a guess.

Your a gentleman !

Black Gold 20 guage 5 is indeed 4 1/3 UK shot size which is 3mm continental. I calculated circa. 214 in 32 gram load. With 4 1/2 being UK 4.

Testing on pattern plate in my main gun I find that my 20 guage is 1 step up in choke from 12 guage. So pellet count in full choke 12 is same pellet count as 3/4 choke 20.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Shotkam