Extreme pheasant shooting

[Scully]

4 hours ago, wymberley said:

What a pair! You genuinely don't know and I haven't a clue. Explaining that you know a definitive answer is not possible because of the many variables, but while assuming all things are equal. why not ask one of the extreme loaders what pattern you could conceivably expect at 80 yards from your standard 28" 12 bore with Full chole using their top end extreme pheasant cartridge? I appreciate the chances of a reply are somewhat slim - as will be the pattern -but should you receive one, please put it up on here.

🙂 Not only do I genuinely not know, I genuinely don’t care.

Dave Carrie, perhaps the UK’s most ardent extreme bird shooter, has conducted trials with cartridges, chokes and guns and put the results on YouTube if you’re interested enough to look. I have no idea how scientific or thorough they were, but once again, I don’t care.
What I do care about is the criticism which this type of shooting attracts, from fellow shooters who are involved in exactly the same sort of shooting, namely the shooting of driven game for entertainment. It really is outstandingly hypocritical! Beggars belief! 🤷‍♂️
 

[button]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

🙂 Not only do I genuinely not know, I genuinely don’t care.

Dave Carrie, perhaps the UK’s most ardent extreme bird shooter, has conducted trials with cartridges, chokes and guns and put the results on YouTube if you’re interested enough to look. I have no idea how scientific or thorough they were, but once again, I don’t care.
What I do care about is the criticism which this type of shooting attracts, from fellow shooters who are involved in exactly the same sort of shooting, namely the shooting of driven game for entertainment. It really is outstandingly hypocritical! Beggars belief! 🤷‍♂️
 

And that in a nut shell sums it up perfectly 

Well said

[Pushandpull]

After the statistical arguments are done, there is an important difference between this " extreme" shooting and other forms of shooting - even more conventional driven birds. Normally, the shooter uses their fieldcraft, or that of others, to get within a range where a clean kill is likely or almost certain.

This style of shooting deliberately extends the range to an extent where a clean kill is unlikely and wounding is very probable. I can see the difference and if some of you cannot then so be it.

[wymberley]

It's good when things work out.

I had no doubt that Stonepark's figures would be correct.

Mine reflect both cocks and hens in terms of both size and weight. I've avoided giving my opinion and have just used accepted figures.

Because, as ever, pattern fails first, neither cartridge has an energy problem. The 34gr load limit is 45 yards and the 32, 46. 

Stonepark and I approach this from differing angles, but our (Stonepark's 120 pellets coincide with my requirement - or would if I used the 30" circle) figures are close enough together to be seen as in agreement without any accusation of collusion.

And I'll wager that the English 5&1/2s are cheaper than the Black Golds.

Edited September 19, 2021 by wymberley

[wymberley]

12 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

After the statistical arguments are done, there is an important difference between this " extreme" shooting and other forms of shooting - even more conventional driven birds. Normally, the shooter uses their fieldcraft, or that of others, to get within a range where a clean kill is likely or almost certain.

This style of shooting deliberately extends the range to an extent where a clean kill is unlikely and wounding is very probable. I can see the difference and if some of you cannot then so be it.

 

Why is it that something so blatantly obvious is so difficult to grasp?

[Gas seal]

Hi I’ve read a lot of this forum ,not all it’s very long. To me it’s about shooting birds flying at ranges of up to eighty yards, shooters firing two thousand cartridges ,  and having a loaded gun given to them each time they have shot.men and dogs five hundred metres behind them collecting dead or injured birds and  shooters paying sixty pounds for each bird collected plus expenses.my concern would be for the injured birds and the dogs sent to find the birds.Cartridge manufacturers must be running out of names to sell their cartridges, maximum and alphmax use to sound good. No cartridges manufacturer would use shooting at flying birds eighty yards away to advertise their cartridges.. Maybe the manufacturers are just privately commissioned to supply these cartridges.With cartridges the first thing would be to get a pattern to suit your gun. We can now use screw in chokes. Then we need the pellets size or speed to get enough energy to kill the birds. The rule of thumb is to double the weight double the energy. Double the speed quadruple the energy. To fast blows pattern to slow needs large shot means open pattern. I can’t see a half size in a small lead pellets making any difference in energy or pattern at the ranges talked about.Recoil would be a problem with the number of cartridges fired. I know if a 12gauge shotgun fired level with lead pellets when standing ,the pellets will travel about a hundred yards and hit the ground. The USA have been using tight patterning guns and cartridges for shooting turkeys , on the ground, for years but not the numbers or distance talked about on here. modern propellants ,wads and hard lead could make a difference and improve ballistics. But to  get a few hundred small round lead pellets to fly straight for up to eighty yards and retain enough energy ,two thousand times each day, that’s a lot of development. TSS is mentioned, cartridges loaded with TSS , light loads and small shot will have patterns and energy at far greater ranges than lead with less recoil. The US have developed more cartridges, lead ,steel and heavy metal types than the UK  . Why people would want to spend a day shooting this way, I don’t know . Maybe shooting three hundred and fifty pheasants at eighty yards is cheaper than shooting two thousand pheasants at forty yards.  Percentages are mentioned a lot in the forum.  The only percentage not mentioned is vat . Is it extra/ refundable. Twenty one thousand pounds a day plus or including vat and any expenses. A business away in the woods somewhere . I would ask if this is good or bad publicity on a open website. Maybe just make the most of it while we can. I don’t see a business of shooting birds as far away as You can extreme or sporting.

 

 

 

 

[Scully]

50 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

After the statistical arguments are done, there is an important difference between this " extreme" shooting and other forms of shooting - even more conventional driven birds. Normally, the shooter uses their fieldcraft, or that of others, to get within a range where a clean kill is likely or almost certain.

This style of shooting deliberately extends the range to an extent where a clean kill is unlikely and wounding is very probable. I can see the difference and if some of you cannot then so be it.

Eh? Driven shooting doesn’t involve field craft, it’s canned hunting! 
Anyone in any form of shooting  can extend the range, but you’re making assumptions that ‘ a clean kill is unlikely’ and ‘wounding very probable ‘ because you simply don’t know  whether that missed bird is actually missed or pricked; no one does unless you actually see chunks of feathers fly off or witness a leg down. 
I shoot and beat on several different shoots throughout the season, and see all manner of birds, guns and shooting, and I know for a fact that extreme driven days don’t have the monopoly on wounding. 
I see novices emptying a cartridge belt ( and more ) on a drive, at average birds with nothing to pick when the horn sounds, experienced guns with their 2& 1/2 inch chambered sxs shotguns having a pop at very very high birds with 32grm 5’s ( I know because I pick up their spent cases ) and I see everything in between. Our syndicate includes a bloke we have nicknamed ‘**** The *****’ because he has no dog but always at drives end has a pricked bird to collect. Our shoot can be described as many things, but ‘high birds’ rarely comes into it! 
If you’re in the business of killing stuff for entertainment then you’re in no position to criticise others, and if you can’t accept that then it’s time you manned up and admitted it. 

😀Edited to add his name rhymes with the pudding Spotted ****, and his nickname is what Sleeping Beauty did to her finger with a pin! 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Scully

[Pushandpull]

Scully, as usual you wade in to disagree with what you have half understood of a post. I personally do not kill "stuff" for entertainment, whether that "stuff" is deer, ducks, or lettuces. Nor do I need lectures on moral philosophy from anyone. I shall come back for a look at this absurd thread in a week or two when it has reached page 30 or thereabouts.

[CharlieT]

3 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

Scully, as usual you wade in to disagree with what you have half understood of a post. I personally do not kill "stuff" for entertainment, whether that "stuff" is deer, ducks, or lettuces. Nor do I need lectures on moral philosophy from anyone. I shall come back for a look at this absurd thread in a week or two when it has reached page 30 or thereabouts.

You don't actually shoot then. Shame, you should try it as it's tremendous fun.

[Stonepark]

When selecting shot sizes, there is often an ideal shot size, where pattern and energy become ineffective almost at the same time and which form the most efficient loadings.

Most so called large pellet 'pheasant' cartridges lose pattern sub 50 yards even with heavier loadings but retain enough energy to penetrate to give a fluke kill or wound at 60, 70 or even 80 yards but which is totally random.

I prefer circa 150 pellets in 30 inch circle for pheasants, as my belief is theat the more strikes, the more likely you are to have a clean kill without wounding and as such reject the Tom Roster practice of a average minimum number of strikes as Toms average 2 pellets could be 0 to 4 strikes, 1-3 strikes or 2 strikes and prefer an average of 4 strikes which would be 0 to 8 strikes, 1 to 7 strikes 2 to 6 strikes, 3-5 strikes or 4 strikes, giving a statistically lesser chance of wounding by an order of magnitude.

 

For example 28g No7 and 32g No6  give the following.

* Full - 45 yards (197 pellets) & 50 yards (148 pellets)

** Imp Mod - 45 yards (184) and 45 yards (167)

*** Mod - 45 yards (167) and 45 yards (152)

**** IC - 45 yards (154) and 40 yards (167)

Skeet - 40 yards (167) and 40 yards (152)

***** C - 35 yards (164) and 35 yards (148)

Both pellets at 45 yards and 50 yards respectively have about 1ftlb and 1.25ftlbs.

For a 50 yard or closer pheasant there is simply no real reason to be have a loading or pellets larger than 32g No6 and if like most days 40 to 45 yard is a 'high' bird, then 28g No 7 will also do the job fine.

If I have a 12b out for pheasants for a normal informal driven day, I most often shoot Skeet & IC with 28g No7.

 

Now for pigeons, the story is slightly reversed as due to their smaller size, I prefer over 180 pellets in 30 inch circle for a clean kill and as a result the heavier No6 loading has no clear range advantage over the lighter no7 and whilst both will do the job, why pay or use more than required?

28g No7 and 32g No6 gives the following.

* Full - 45 yards (197 pellets) & 45 yards (179 pellets)

** Imp Mod - 45 yards (184) and 40 yards (197)

*** Mod - 40 yards (217) and 40 yards (182)

**** IC - 40 yards (184) and 35 yards (197)

Skeet - 35 yards (201) and 35 yards (182)

***** C - 30 yards (201) and 30 yards (182)

If shooting over decoys, No 7 28g and IC will drop everything within 40 yards and again I most often have Skeet in the other barrel.

On a trying day, where a lot of long shots due to circumstances is unavoidable, I will occasionally choke up to IC and Imp Mod but not very often.

[London Best]

Stone park, reading your excellent post above, I notice that you are calling IC choke tighter than skeet. Novices may not realise that these are the American nominations. Their skeet is actually British IC, and their IC is actually what we call quarter choke. Forgive me for pointing this out.

[JDog]

There is a lot of hypothetical guff on this thread as there always is whenever the topic is restarted. Some of those spouting this stuff have never put a post up about their time in the field. Their contributions therefore carry less weight as far as I am concerned.

I once hosted a day on the Devon/Somerset border. On one drive many pheasants came over the line over 100m up and were still fired at. None were shot at that height.

On a rough day in Northumberland a wild dog put a hen pheasant up in the distance. It came straight over me at a height of seventy to eighty metres. I took my cap off and hailed it as it sailed on it's way. 

[Old farrier]

26 minutes ago, Scully said:

Eh? Driven shooting doesn’t involve field craft, it’s canned hunting! 
Anyone in any form of shooting  can extend the range, but you’re making assumptions that ‘ a clean kill is unlikely’ and ‘wounding very probable ‘ because you simply don’t know  whether that missed bird is actually missed or pricked; no one does unless you actually see chunks of feathers fly off or witness a leg down. 
I shoot and beat on several different shoots throughout the season, and see all manner of birds, guns and shooting, and I know for a fact that extreme driven days don’t have the monopoly on wounding. 
I see novices emptying a cartridge belt ( and more ) on a drive, at average birds with nothing to pick when the horn sounds, experienced guns with their 2& 1/2 inch chambered sxs shotguns having a pop at very very high birds with 32grm 5’s ( I know because I pick up their spent cases ) and I see everything in between. Our syndicate includes a bloke we have nicknamed ‘**** The *****’ because he has no dog but always at drives end has a pricked bird to collect. Our shoot can be described as many things, but ‘high birds’ rarely comes into it! 
If you’re in the business of killing stuff for entertainment then you’re in no position to criticise others, and if you can’t accept that then it’s time you manned up and admitted it. 

😀Edited to add his name rhymes with the pudding Spotted ****, and his nickname is what Sleeping Beauty did to her finger with a pin! 

Absolute no field craft at all 

apart from getting the beaters in the right drive and starting them when the guns are in the right place looking in the right direction 

obviously the birds are just going to be in the right cover and then fly the correct way no skills involved in getting the birds to the flushing point and flying in the right direction or positioning of the guns allowing for wind and weather conditions 

absolutely no skill or fieldcraft required to know where the birds will be at any given time of the day or any planning involved in not disturbing the next drive or where the birds are going to end up 

canned it maybe 

but please don’t diminish the work of the keepers on the commercial shoots 

 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Pushandpull said:

Scully, as usual you wade in to disagree with what you have half understood of a post. I personally do not kill "stuff" for entertainment, whether that "stuff" is deer, ducks, or lettuces. Nor do I need lectures on moral philosophy from anyone. I shall come back for a look at this absurd thread in a week or two when it has reached page 30 or thereabouts.

What exactly have I half understood? 
Unless you’re killing ‘stuff’ as part of your job, then you’re doing it for recreation. 
I can understand why you kill lettuces, but why are you killing ducks or deer, or anything else for that matter? Why do you own firearms? 

[Scully]

22 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Absolute no field craft at all 

apart from getting the beaters in the right drive and starting them when the guns are in the right place looking in the right direction 

obviously the birds are just going to be in the right cover and then fly the correct way no skills involved in getting the birds to the flushing point and flying in the right direction or positioning of the guns allowing for wind and weather conditions 

absolutely no skill or fieldcraft required to know where the birds will be at any given time of the day or any planning involved in not disturbing the next drive or where the birds are going to end up 

canned it maybe 

but please don’t diminish the work of the keepers on the commercial shoots 

 

We’re discussing the role of the shooter on a driven shoot. He uses absolutely no field craft at all as he is stationed at a peg which is allocated to him on the basis of the number he drew, but you already know that. There is no field craft involved on his part whatsoever, unless you want to include remembering to bring a gun and cartridges. 
I have in no way diminished the work of the keeper, underkeepers, beaters and pickers up, and nor would I, because I am very aware of what their work entails and of the huge responsibility involved to ensure that those whom have paid extortionate amounts of money to shoot, have the very best of days, and on our local BIG shoot, they do. They wouldn’t return year after year otherwise. 
 

[Old farrier]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

We’re discussing the role of the shooter on a driven shoot. He uses absolutely no field craft at all as he is stationed at a peg which is allocated to him on the basis of the number he drew, but you already know that. There is no field craft involved on his part whatsoever, unless you want to include remembering to bring a gun and cartridges. 
I have in no way diminished the work of the keeper, underkeepers, beaters and pickers up, and nor would I, because I am very aware of what their work entails and of the huge responsibility involved to ensure that those whom have paid extortionate amounts of money to shoot, have the very best of days, and on our local BIG shoot, they do. They wouldn’t return year after year otherwise. 
 

Ahh I miss understood I thought it was about the whole aspect of extreme bird shooting not just the chap behind the wallet 

[Scully]

7 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Ahh I miss understood I thought it was about the whole aspect of extreme bird shooting not just the chap behind the wallet 

🙂 It’s often actually just about the ‘chap behind the wallet’ if truth be known, but the only difference between a normal driven shoot and an extreme one, is a matter mostly of terrain.
Even if you’ve got the right birds, it means nothing if you ain’t got the hills or gullies. 🙂

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

🙂 It’s often actually just about the ‘chap behind the wallet’ if truth be known, but the only difference between a normal driven shoot and an extreme one, is a matter mostly of terrain.
Even if you’ve got the right birds, it means nothing if you ain’t got the hills or gullies. 🙂

So

if you have the hills and the gullies is it wrong to have the shoot on ground that wouldn’t otherwise be earning you anything

or is that the prerogative of the lower ground normal parkland shoot 

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

So

if you have the hills and the gullies is it wrong to have the shoot on ground that wouldn’t otherwise be earning you anything

or is that the prerogative of the lower ground normal parkland shoot 

🤷‍♂️There’s nothing to prevent anyone creating a shoot wherever they want, if they have the land, but if you want ‘extreme’ birds you’ll struggle without suitable terrain. You know all this of course, so I’m struggling to see where this is leading. 
Anyhow, our small syndicate has no hills; we drive birds over woods to gain as much height as we can. It is often the pigeons that are the more challenging birds!
Our rough shoot is similar, with only slopes and even less trees. 
BIG commercial shoot is a completely different kettle of fish! 

[Shotkam]

6 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Assuming 120 pellets in 30 inch circle UK no 4 3.1mm and UK 3.0mm: -

Full - 44 yards and 46 yards

Imp Mod - 43 yards and 44 yards

Mod - 40 yards and 41 yards

IC - 38  yards and 39 yards

Skeet - 35 yards and 36 yards

C - 30 yards and 31 yards

 

Assuming Tom Rosters 95 pellets in 30 inch circle for Uk 3.1mm and 3.0mm

Full - 52 yards & 53 yards

Imp Mod - 49 yards and 50 yards

Mod - 47 yards and 48 yards

IC - 45 yards and 46 yards

Skeet - 43 yards and 44 yards

C - 36 yards and 38 yards

 

At maximum pattern distance of 53 yards, each pellet still has around 2 ftlbs of energy.

 

On the other hand 34g of UK5.5 2.7mm for 120 pellets and 95 pellets would give the following: -

Full - 50 yards & 55 yards

Imp Mod - 48 yards and 53 yards

Mod - 45 yards and 51 yards

IC - 44 yards and 49 yards

Skeet - 40 yards and 46 yards

C - 35 yards and 41 yards

Each pellet would have 1.25ftlbs energy at 55 yards, still plenty enough to do the job.

 

 

 

Thanks for taking the trouble to input all your data, which was certainly interesting. 

I plan to get on the pattern plate when the wind picks up with both those loads and if anyone is interested I will post my findings.

5 hours ago, wymberley said:

It's good when things work out.

I had no doubt that Stonepark's figures would be correct.

Mine reflect both cocks and hens in terms of both size and weight. I've avoided giving my opinion and have just used accepted figures.

Because, as ever, pattern fails first, neither cartridge has an energy problem. The 34gr load limit is 45 yards and the 32, 46. 

Stonepark and I approach this from differing angles, but our (Stonepark's 120 pellets coincide with my requirement - or would if I used the 30" circle) figures are close enough together to be seen as in agreement without any accusation of collusion.

And I'll wager that the English 5&1/2s are cheaper than the Black Golds.

All good then - What is really a key factor is pattern failing before energy or vise versa.

Find a load that is close to having the 2 matching sounds ideal.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Shotkam

[Old farrier]

29 minutes ago, Scully said:

🤷‍♂️There’s nothing to prevent anyone creating a shoot wherever they want, if they have the land, but if you want ‘extreme’ birds you’ll struggle without suitable terrain. You know all this of course, so I’m struggling to see where this is leading. 
Anyhow, our small syndicate has no hills; we drive birds over woods to gain as much height as we can. It is often the pigeons that are the more challenging birds!
Our rough shoot is similar, with only slopes and even less trees. 
BIG commercial shoot is a completely different kettle of fish! 

Ahh well this is where I’m going 

seems to me that a lot of people decrying high and extreme shooting are a tad jealous 🤭

this I think is because they can’t afford it don’t have the ability or don’t have the opportunity 

I fully understand the wounded argument however there’s plenty of lower birds wounded 

there’s also a large number of shooting people that take longer shots than they should ie extreme and frequently out of there ability 

I can’t see any difference between a high pigeon more challenging bird and a high pheasant 

and that’s the point some like that challenge 

1 minute ago, Shotkam said:

Thanks for taking the trouble to input all your data, which was certainly interesting. 

I plan to get on the pattern plate when the wind picks up with both those loads and if anyone is interested I will post my findings.

I’m interested 

 

[Shotkam]

4 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Ahh well this is where I’m going 

seems to me that a lot of people decrying high and extreme shooting are a tad jealous 🤭

this I think is because they can’t afford it don’t have the ability or don’t have the opportunity 

I fully understand the wounded argument however there’s plenty of lower birds wounded 

there’s also a large number of shooting people that take longer shots than they should ie extreme and frequently out of there ability 

I can’t see any difference between a high pigeon more challenging bird and a high pheasant 

and that’s the point some like that challenge 

I’m interested 

 

I use 1.2m wide white paper, which allows me to compare results side by side that I sometimes find useful.

With the cost of cartridges having risen 20% over the last 6 months it make you grimace a bit firing those class of cartridges at a sheet of steel!

Has to be done.

I'll be starting with True Cyl, 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4.  All Teague super extended aftermarket in a 34 year old browning 28" OU.

I'll draw a 30" circle and maybe a 2nd larger circle to be determined when it comes to it.

 

[Old farrier]

2 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

I use 1.2m wide white paper, which allows me to compare results side by side that I sometimes find useful.

With the cost of cartridges having risen 20% over the last 6 months it make you grimace a bit firing those class of cartridges at a sheet of steel!

Has to be done.

I'll be starting with True Cyl, 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4.  All Teague super extended aftermarket in a 34 year old browning 28" OU.

I'll draw a 30" circle and maybe a 2nd larger circle to be determined when it comes to it.

 

That’s fine however most people on high /extreme shoots go for 3/4 full and or extra full longer forcing cones and some prefer over bored barrels 

remembering that there’s more than just the pattern to consider one should include penetration in the equation although it is almost impossible to build in the speed of the bird as it’s hit with the first pellets 

the shot maybe loosing energy at the plate but a flying bird won’t be static so will be producing more of a impact on the shot 

[Shotkam]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

That’s fine however most people on high /extreme shoots go for 3/4 full and or extra full longer forcing cones and some prefer over bored barrels 

remembering that there’s more than just the pattern to consider one should include penetration in the equation although it is almost impossible to build in the speed of the bird as it’s hit with the first pellets 

the shot maybe loosing energy at the plate but a flying bird won’t be static so will be producing more of a impact on the shot 

Bearing in mind all that has been said and the vast array of data available, there is no way I would wish to be a driven Pheasant anywhere near that 30" circle with 32g Black Gold No 5 even with 1/2 choke in a 20 guage - period !

[Stonepark]

42 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Thanks for taking the trouble to input all your data, which was certainly interesting. 

I plan to get on the pattern plate when the wind picks up with both those loads and if anyone is interested I will post my findings.

All good then - What is really a key factor is pattern failing before energy of vise versa.

Find a load that is close to having the 2 matching sounds ideal.

 

Your welcome.