The demise of lead shot and small bore shot guns

[Salop Matt]

So it looks like high bird shoots will be in great demand for the next 5 years then after that they will have to just produce low birds so that steel can still do its job. I suspect when shooting with steel birds will need to be so low it might not even feel sporting based on previous experience of lead. A nail in the coffin of High Bird Shooting and goodbye to the contribution to the economy from it, I wonder how many overseas shooter will keep returning to shoot when the High Birds are out of range of Steel / non toxic shot.

Just wait clay shooters will be forced onto steel next.

 

[lancer425]

3 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

How so???

This is definitely a case of we are no longer fighting your corner and you will have to accept that lead shot is gone, as no one is left fighting for it.

It will not affect me yet as I don't shoot birds, I only shoot clays. But it will eventually.

If the orgs aren't pushing it then why make a statement stating that very thing  are you suggesting that the ban will always be voluntary?

There iThey did as good a job as anyone ever could have done defending it s no fight no ban. Its asking us to change what we use.

 How can BASC or anyone defend Lead. ? come on!  They did a great job defending it Before. But its still toxic it needs to go.  We need to change our attitudes to Non Lead Shot.  It is not alien to many of us we use it all the time and in old guns too if use normal steel.

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, salop sniper said:

So it looks like high bird shoots will be in great demand for the next 5 years then after that they will have to just produce low birds so that steel can still do its job. I suspect when shooting with steel birds will need to be so low it might not even feel sporting based on previous experience of lead. A nail in the coffin of High Bird Shooting and goodbye to the contribution to the economy from it, I wonder how many overseas shooter will keep returning to shoot when the High Birds are out of range of Steel / non toxic shot.

Just wait clay shooters will be forced onto steel next.

 

High bird shoots  Are a TALE OF MYSTERY & IMAGINATION . Vivid in fact Psychedelic in nature. 

  Life is too short to revisit this myth, needless to say . If Non Lead ammo utilising the HW/ TSS shot types is Employed, on these high shoots it will be bringing down genuinely HIGH BIRDS. Not the High birds created out of a combination of Poor range estimation misplaced exuberance and A tad too many sips from the old hip flash.   Lead in any form high antamony platted etc is absolutely no match for TSS at range. Lead is  not even in the same hemisphere never mind street.

[Stonepark]

All heavy metals are toxic, iron, lead, tungsten, copper, zinc, bismuth when ingested, simply their toxicities differ and act differently in the environment and when ingested.

The push for non lead bullets is going to more fun, armour or semi armour  piercing rounds will become main stream as brass, copper etc will penetrate police vests as well as animals, the main advantage of lead being it goes splat, and deforms rather than penetrates

Of more concern is the removal of single use plastics which includes the shell case as well as the wad and in order to use steel long term it needs plastic shell  to seal it off from moisture.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Stonepark

[Smokersmith]

19 minutes ago, salop sniper said:

So it looks like high bird shoots will be in great demand for the next 5 years then after that they will have to just produce low birds so that steel can still do its job. I suspect when shooting with steel birds will need to be so low it might not even feel sporting based on previous experience of lead. A nail in the coffin of High Bird Shooting and goodbye to the contribution to the economy from it, I wonder how many overseas shooter will keep returning to shoot when the High Birds are out of range of Steel / non toxic shot.

 

I disagree ... the amount of cash that circulates at this level is huge, and I can see 28-32g of HW13 etc being used to much greater effect than lead. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

39 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

I disagree ... the amount of cash that circulates at this level is huge, and I can see 28-32g of HW13 etc being used to much greater effect than lead. 

Yes it will not stop them.

Not that it should.

[Vince Green]

On 31/01/2020 at 18:00, FatFreddysCat said:

The lead ban for wildfowling has been in place for 20 years now. If ingested lead was killing a significant number, we should be overrun with ducks by now.

A lot of the data for the initial ban came second hand from somewhere in America that was much more heavily over shot. Also the integrity of data was suspected of being dubious. A lot of the statistics appear to have been plucked out of thin air.

Also the 1991 Ban in America only covered Federally owned wetlands, everywhere else is still ban free. I doubt a lot of American hunters are even aware of it.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Vince Green

[rbrowning2]

7 hours ago, lancer425 said:

In an ideal sittuation it will give the chance for shooters to use up their lead ammo stocks in many cases, and at the same time, give time for a learning curve on steel or other allternatives. Experiment patter field test and adjust technique or guns chokes "aftermarkers if need be"  and basicaly work out for themselves what is involved.

Cartridge companies will be selling less lead ammo hopefully stop production apart from clay ammo. Then start looking at new bio wads to stave off the plastics issue. and perhaps improve on availability of TSS etc on a comercial scale for those willing/ able to afford it. Bismuth options for older guns or those wanting to use it.

 Who knows steel or copper cored pellets with a relatively thick copper cladding capable of withstanding internal balistics when in direct contact with a guns bores and yet do no damage to said bores in use.

Toungsten cor / copoper clad could in theory duplicate Lead exactly on GRAMS percc / mass but be way better at not deforming and thus deliver better patterns than Lead ever did more akin to a steel pattern.

Work that process out and it would sell. get it done cheap" doubtfull it involves tougsten "  and it would sell sell sell.

 Even with steel as the core and copper clad it will up density a little, and make steel more usable in any old gun etc.

A pipe dream i know, but it would be nice if ever possible.

  And no we can not clad lead its still lead and thats the end of that.

I think you are living in cloud cockoo land, all but a few or the very wealthy will carry on as normal unless a cheap alternative is offered as an assentive to change or until a legal ban on lead happens.

 

 

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Yes it will not stop them.

Not that it should.

Because they will just carry on using lead shot, I doubt if the kind of guns paying £60 a high bird give any thought about what happens to the bird after it has been shot. Even on small local shoots very few guns take away a brace or ask about where the birds go.

They only care about having a good days sport.

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by rbrowning2

[lancer425]

2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

 Even on small local shoots very few guns take away a brace or ask about where the birds go.

They only care about having a good days sport.

 

And do you know, that never was the case even as recent as the 90s, its this  last two decades its got like this.

[Smokersmith]

9 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

I think you are living in cloud cockoo land, all but a few or the very wealthy will carry on as normal unless a cheap alternative is offered as an assentive to change or until a legal ban on lead happens.

 

 

Just think about it ...

How much marketing do the big boys put into Game loads …

If I were GB, Hull, or Eley … I'd want to have a barnstorming range of shells in the next 5 years ..

Necessity is the mother of invention, and I will have a cost effective and futureproof solution that'll kill 50 yard game by the time we go 'live'.

My steel reloads with plastic wads will do the job, so I just need to transfer to a non-polluting wad solution, and plans are afoot!!

And if I can do it … you can bet the big boys will also manage it.

The move from the orgs will trigger/accelerate the development, and they'll be falling over themselves to get stuff launched.

It will stop me from buying a 28 bore … but I'm not going to cry about it.

[captainhastings]

17 hours ago, lancer425 said:

We heard this in wildfowling remember? it necver happened, ok some had a few put by a bag or ten of Copper plated winchester lead BBs etc. but really NO1 It was law a civil law, and unless you loved fishing that much you could live without shooting it just did not happen. Nobody ever got prosecuted for lead in fowling AFAIK. but once its in everywhere , i fear we might see a few prosecutions filltering through, but lets hope not hey. and lets hope most take up the dropping lead option and slow run up to this controversial obstacle.

Made me chuckle 

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/two-members-shooting-syndicate-prosecuted-2263316

[TIGHTCHOKE]

6 minutes ago, captainhastings said:

Made me chuckle 

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/two-members-shooting-syndicate-prosecuted-2263316

"Poisoned by eating the cartridges!"

Blimey.

[captainhastings]

3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

"Poisoned by eating the cartridges!"

Blimey.

Yep bang on reporting. That should be made illegal if any thing the people that write this stuff just have no clue at all and basically lie to there readership 

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, Smokersmith said:

Just think about it ...

How much marketing do the big boys put into Game loads …

If I were GB, Hull, or Eley … I'd want to have a barnstorming range of shells in the next 5 years ..

Necessity is the mother of invention, and I will have a cost effective and futureproof solution that'll kill 50 yard game by the time we go 'live'.

My steel reloads with plastic wads will do the job, so I just need to transfer to a non-polluting wad solution, and plans are afoot!!

And if I can do it … you can bet the big boys will also manage it.

The move from the orgs will trigger/accelerate the development, and they'll be falling over themselves to get stuff launched.

It will stop me from buying a 28 bore … but I'm not going to cry about it.

I think we have gone ‘live’ and the intentions have not been that well communicated by the orgs but reading the FAQ I think they want all live quarry shot by guns using 12ga to use steel NOW as the cartridge to do so is available from Eley provided the gun is chambered to use it.
They then expect the rest to transition to non toxic as and when the industry provide the cartridges over the next five years.
I don’t think they indented the five year transition period to be an excuse not to use non toxic shot in non biodegradable wads for guns that can use the eley and soon bioammo cartridges now.  Or that’s the conclusion I have reached.

i too was thinking of buying another 28ga but unlike you I don’t think I will let this stop me, I may not live long enough to see an effective non toxic biodegradable wad 28ga Cartridge at the price a middle class pensioner can afford.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by rbrowning2

[lancer425]

15 minutes ago, captainhastings said:

Yep bang on reporting. That should be made illegal if any thing the people that write this stuff just have no clue at all and basically lie to there readership 

Lots of misinformation out there on non tox generally, its just ignorance on the part of the media. The info is there for them why they do not chose to do proper research before publishing is just sloppy workmanship.

[mick miller]

My problem isn't with the voluntary removal of lead shot for game and pest shooting, however right or wrong that may be, my problem is with a unanimous decision being agreed on, by all interested parties, without a single consultation from the collective wage paying membership being sought first.

Regardless of the outcomes for vintage guns, the effects for those that shoot only crows or foxes and have no requirement for anything to enter the food chain to be lead free, it is the blindingly obvious contempt held for the people that support these groups and give them purpose that irks me the most.

For that reason I've just cancelled my last remaining sub to the CA. It'll be a private insurance provided by C3 for me from now on.

For what it's worth, I think the idea of moving away from lead shot and plastics is ultimately an inevitable outcome. For rifles I would argue the opposite.

[captainhastings]

All about choice. Should have votes on stuff. What makes people think they have the right to dictate every thing. 

[andrewluke]

9 minutes ago, captainhastings said:

All about choice. Should have votes on stuff. What makes people think they have the right to dictate every thing. 

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, captainhastings said:

All about choice. Should have votes on stuff. What makes people think they have the right to dictate every thing. 

Completely agree. It should have been put to the members and the membership should have decided.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Newbie to this

[Old farrier]

11 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Completely agree. It should have been put to the members and the membership should have decided.

Still waiting for the email to arrive 

if I wasn’t on the forum I as yet would have no knowledge of this 

very poor show 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Still waiting for the email to arrive 

if I wasn’t on the forum I as yet would have no knowledge of this 

very poor show 

Ditto. 

[Walker570]

18 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Because they will just carry on using lead shot, I doubt if the kind of guns paying £60 a high bird give any thought about what happens to the bird after it has been shot. Even on small local shoots very few guns take away a brace or ask about where the birds go.

They only care about having a good days sport.

 

On a small syndicate shoot I was in last year, the first offer is to the beaters and virtually all of them will take a brace.  Always birds left lying by the guns.  I always take at least a brace and infact buy 20, four bird oven ready packs to go in our freezer.  £3 a pack has to be a cheap meal for four people.  Unfortunately over the last 50yrs and more so in the last 20yrs I have seen the approach from guns as just treating the birds as targets as they would on clays and they have no affinity with the countryside even, let alone how those birds are provided.  They might as well be made of plastic and thrown from a trap.

[Scully]

2 hours ago, captainhastings said:

All about choice. Should have votes on stuff. What makes people think they have the right to dictate every thing. 

But given the fuss we created when last this was mooted, they would be well aware of the outcome of that vote; hence no ballot. By proposing it as a joint decision no one can blame any one organisation. 

I can now fully understand why it has been decided, but what I'm not happy with is the claims that now, scientists are increasingly claiming that lead is toxic when consumed at ANY level. Someone is telling porkies.

[rbrowning2]

7 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

On a small syndicate shoot I was in last year, the first offer is to the beaters and virtually all of them will take a brace.  Always birds left lying by the guns.  I always take at least a brace and infact buy 20, four bird oven ready packs to go in our freezer.  £3 a pack has to be a cheap meal for four people.  Unfortunately over the last 50yrs and more so in the last 20yrs I have seen the approach from guns as just treating the birds as targets as they would on clays and they have no affinity with the countryside even, let alone how those birds are provided.  They might as well be made of plastic and thrown from a trap.

Exactly I know  so let’s ban the game shooting and replace it with say simulated game days presenting clay targets. No game to enter the food chain then so not an issue what shot is use.