Caroline Flack RIP

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I believe any caring persons motives would be selfless in trying to stop another committing suicide......but under certain circumstances, such as the one you describe, stopping them may also be seen as doing it for somewhat “selfish reasons”, but I believe for most people who tell others they are going to kill themselves, it is a desperate cry for help, and they have little intention of actually going through with it? Hopefully this will result in those people get the help, from family friends and the professionals, they are crying out for! Those that really intend to commit suicide, don’t warn people, they just do it regardless of the pain it will cause to family and friends!....that, I am of the opinion, can only be described as selfish!

And yet again, you’re looking at it from the point of view of someone who is rational! 
I’ve tried ( as have others ) to explain that anyone contemplating suicide isn’t doing it with a rational brain; they’ve reached the end of their tether.

If they were acting rationally they would realise they needed help, and possibly seek it. 
I‘m not trying to get you to admit you’re wrong, it’s your opinion, merely trying to explain what it is like for someone living with such mental health problems ( whether self inflicted or otherwise ) and who can’t cope with them. 
 

[KB1]

Such a shame to hear of her death.  She was a lovely person😔

[chrisjpainter]

11 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I believe any caring persons motives would be selfless in trying to stop another committing suicide......but under certain circumstances, such as the one you describe, stopping them may also be seen as doing it for somewhat “selfish reasons”, but I believe for most people who tell others they are going to kill themselves, it is a desperate cry for help, and they have little intention of actually going through with it? Hopefully this will result in those people get the help, from family friends and the professionals, they are crying out for! Those that really intend to commit suicide, don’t warn people, they just do it regardless of the pain it will cause to family and friends!....that, I am of the opinion, can only be described as selfish!

I want you to imagine you have a friend. They're at the deepest point of depression, completely empty and crying for relief. And there's you. With that attitude. Do you really think they're going to open up to how they feel to you? Your attitude is why so many people don't open up. They fear you will judge them and for whatever reply you give to this, the reality is you are judging them. You have done in post after post in this thread. You have condemned them as selfish, insensible to the feelings of their loved ones. Your attitude makes their burden worse.

[panoma1]

15 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

I want you to imagine you have a friend. They're at the deepest point of depression, completely empty and crying for relief. And there's you. With that attitude. Do you really think they're going to open up to how they feel to you? Your attitude is why so many people don't open up. They fear you will judge them and for whatever reply you give to this, the reality is you are judging them. You have done in post after post in this thread. You have condemned them as selfish, insensible to the feelings of their loved ones. Your attitude makes their burden worse.

What attitude? If someone was in the state of mind you describe, and I was aware of it, I would be sympathetic, caring and do everything I could to help!........but how do you suppose anyone could help or show empathy with someone who hides their condition, and just goes off and commits suicide? These people do not give anyone the chance to help........so there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them.....they have rendered themselves beyond suffering......but the suffering and pain is just starting for those loved ones their suicide inflicted on them! Whether rational or not........Is that not selfish?

 

I think this has run its course for me......please feel free to comment, but I stand by my opinion as stated, and will make no further comment.

[grrclark]

Scully and Sian, some really good posts that are reflective of the brutal reality of those troubled souls.

People who are contemplating taking their own lives are way beyond the point of reason or rational thoughts by any normal standard.  If the person who is contemplating suicide cannot cope with their own emotions to the point they think death is the only way out, how on earth should some think they could reasonably consider the emotions of others?

I have known two people who took their own lives and also two people who have admitted that they were right on the cusp of trying or failed in their attempt.  For both of those that didn't go through with it, and i'm very grateful they didn't, they both thought that their death would have been better for everyone.  For the two that did manage it saddens me greatly that they were not capable of realising or understanding the grief that their passing would cause, because if they did they wouldn't have taken their own lives.

Both of those that survived believed, at that darkest time,  those that they left behind would have been happier without them.  In their eyes they would have been doing people a favour, they thought they were being selfless in wanting to remove themselves as a burden on the emotions of others.  That is the ultimate sadness, when you have no sense of value or worth in your own self then you cannot comprehend how you might have worth or value to anybody else.

There is nothing selfish or cowardly about suicide, because those are rational and reasoned emotions.  Suicide is blackness and despair, a complete loss of hope or purpose and no sense of self worth.  It is a tragedy in every sense.

[shaun4860]

If this thread has learnt us anything, it’s that we need to talk more......

But we won’t, why? Because we are men and that’s not what we do. 😕

There is no easy answer, or an answer we will ever agree on.....and that’s a shame 😕

[figgy]

I can only think it's a momentary lapse of reason, like song title but so true.

It's not the act of a normal functioning sane mind.

[100milesaway]

Unfortunately this occurrence will be multiplying ten fold when the implications of our very lax drug abuse laws come  back to bite us. From Auntie.

 

[WalkedUp]

Addiction is a big risk factor in suicide. If you consider alcohol abuse as a drug dependence, that alone gives an eight fold increase in suicide rate.

Source: Samaritans 

https://media.samaritans.org/documents/Alcohol_Misuse_-_Samaritans_Policy_Briefing.pdf

[Bobba]

12 hours ago, grrclark said:

There is nothing selfish or cowardly about suicide, because those are rational and reasoned emotions.  Suicide is blackness and despair, a complete loss of hope or purpose and no sense of self worth.  It is a tragedy in every sense.

Last year someone I had known for almost 50 years (but had not seen regularly as he moved to another town) sat down in the street and set fire to himself. He died in hospital. I shed a tear at such a loss.

His eulogy was skilfully crafted by the priest, referring to his troubled soul. The above thoughts by grrclark fully reflect my view on the matter.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Bobba

[Thunderbird]

My first boss killed herself, I was 18 at the time. It's such a weird thing. I didn't discover her but I did alert the police when she didn't come in for a few days, then all hell broke loose. 

One suicide that got me was that of Anthony Bourdain, back in 2018. It genuinely shocked me (and a lot of people across the world). Here is a bloke, with what a great many people would consider pretty much the best job in the world, and he goes and kills himself. It just goes to show how powerful the mental illness that causes it is. So sad. 

I have to admit not having a clue as to who Caroline Flack actually was until this, but I guess she must have been pretty famous. 

 

[Vince Green]

I do think, having read all the narrative surrounding her case, that she was treated differently by both the police and the CPS because of who she was. I don't believe (with some previous experience from a past life) that police called to what amounted to a first time domestic would have gone this far. Particularly when the victim didn't want to press charges.

Also, some questions over how details of the case got into the hands of the press

[chrisjpainter]

5 hours ago, Vince Green said:

I do think, having read all the narrative surrounding her case, that she was treated differently by both the police and the CPS because of who she was. I don't believe (with some previous experience from a past life) that police called to what amounted to a first time domestic would have gone this far. Particularly when the victim didn't want to press charges.

Also, some questions over how details of the case got into the hands of the press

Indeed. I don't know whether it's got the CPS rattled, but there's been a similar case going on with Nicky Butt, the former Man Utd player. He was accused of beating his estranged wife, the wife didn't want to press charges, but the CPS had been pressing ahead...until today, when all charges have been dropped. Fast learning, or a blatant demonstration of how differently Ms Flack has been treated?

Edited February 18, 2020 by chrisjpainter

[MrPhantom]

6 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Particularly when the victim didn't want to press charges.

I’m on the fence over this after reading the recent coverage. I think the CPS treat domestic abuse cases very differently and are able to proceed as they see fit. Apparently it is very common for the the ‘victim’ in these cases to withdraw their statement after the event for fear of repercussions from the perpetrator.
I’m not implying Ms Flack was guilty of course but maybe the CPS were just following procedure? It’s the way she was subsequently treated by the press and the online public bullying via social media that was scandalous. 

[chrisjpainter]

2 minutes ago, MrPhantom said:

I’m on the fence over this after reading the recent coverage. I think the CPS treat domestic abuse cases very differently and are able to proceed as they see fit. Apparently it is very common for the the ‘victim’ in these cases to withdraw their statement after the event for fear of repercussions from the perpetrator.
I’m not implying Ms Flack was guilty of course but maybe the CPS were just following procedure? It’s the way she was subsequently treated by the press and the online public bullying via social media that was scandalous. 

Sadly, this is exactly what happens. There are also movement limitations put on the suspect. In Ms Flack's case that meant not seeing her partner, and him not being allowed to see her, which effectively pulled her support network away from under her. 

I want to say, 'this is a time when someone should have been allowed to use common sense, rather than follow the rule book'. But then if I say that, someone, somewhere will do that, get it wrong and a real victim of domestic violence is going to lose their life. 

Minefield.