Lead ban & BASC

[motty]

7 hours ago, Rob85 said:

But bismuth was proved to be the lead alternative that any shotgun could use was it not? But this is going to end up in a rather interesting court case i reckon because theres no point saying that any gun can use standard steel so long as its not choked more than half but remember one manufacturers half choke might be tighter than anothers. And an old gun that just scrapes through on wall thickness so legally in proof might still blow up because the proof refers to lead ammunition

Listen, guns don't just "blow up."  I hate repeating myself, but you can safely use steel through more than half choke.

[motty]

5 hours ago, Dougy said:

I dont think many could afford the cost if they still intend to keep shooting, ive just compared the cost of lead and steel. 

Its above my spending allowance. But isnt that what they want anyway

Really? Steel isn't that expensive at the moment. Prices would also come down in time.

[motty]

21 hours ago, Rob85 said:

The main reason wildflowers aren't still crying is because they would be lucky if they shot 50-100 cartridges each a year whereas think of the pigeon decoyer/pest controller who could rattle out 300+ in a session never mind over the course of a year

I am a wildfowler. I shoot way more than 100 cartridges at wildfowl per season. I have also shot well over 200 steel cartridges at pigeons in a session. I don't want a lead ban, but steel is effective enough.

Edited February 25, 2020 by motty

[JohnfromUK]

4 hours ago, motty said:

Really? Steel isn't that expensive at the moment. Prices would also come down in time.

I agree that prices will 'cross' or at least 'meet' with lead rising in cost as volume falls.  Availability of 2 1/2" compatible cartridges is the main thing that will hamper many with game guns.

[Old farrier]

Some good posts motty thank you for sharing your practical knowledge and experience with the steel shot 👍👍👍

[ClemFandango]

11 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Not sure that homeload will be a cheap alternative or possible, given that to comply with the no one use plastic you only have the option to use the cardboard cup wads in 12ga at around £150 per 1000 for the wads and their is nothing available for any other gauge as far as I know that you can buy. All other wads in the shops are not 

 I am sure I have seen these wads down to 20gauge but you are right, they are expensive and I just checked Claygame and they only have them in 12g and up. 

 

I would have thought though that as demand increases a biodegradable option for smaller calibres (other than bismuth etc) will become available. 

[rbrowning2]

9 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Misinformation is rife on this issue from various keyboard warriors. Some FAQs are below to help bust the myths:

FAQs

B

Why now?

 

Recent technological developments have made non-lead shot more effective, more widely available and more affordable. Equally, biodegradable wads are now a possibility. These advances are continuing at pace and it is now time for the wider live quarry shooting community to join the wildfowlers, who have used non-lead alternatives successfully for the last twenty years.

In addition, there are over-burdening legislative changes coming down the line as a result of work being undertaken by the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA).

Despite Brexit, we are expecting that these regulations will be implemented in the UK either due to a requirement to sell lead free game into Europe, or by UK legislation.

B

What are the organisations calling for?

 

Collectively, we are calling for a phased transition away from the use of lead shot in shotgun shooting for all live quarry.

We are also calling for the end of single-use plastics in all shotgun ammunition.

We feel that both goals are achievable within a five-year time frame, allowing suitable time for the industry to respond with new product development and ensure adequate supply.

B

Why is using lead shot a problem?

 

Concerns around the use of lead shot limit the current market for game products, and retailers are increasingly asking for game that has been shot with non-lead alternatives. Additionally, lead has been progressively removed from other substances, such as petrol and paint.

There is growing concern about the damage lead shot causes to wildlife away from wetlands. The fact that non-lead alternatives of suitable quality are increasingly available means that we should transition towards them.

B

What are the alternatives?

 

Alternatives include steel, bismuth and tungsten-based shots. These are available in a variety of shot sizes and calibres.

B

So do the alternatives all behave the same way?

 

No. Each metal behaves differently and those that shoot need to be aware of the differences. Simple patterning tests and practice on clays will help ensure that Guns identify which is best suited to their guns and their intended quarry.

B

I’ve heard that steel shot is ineffective.

 

This is a rumour from the very early days of steel shot development. Field trials comparing lead and steel shot have found no differences in a number of measures, including lethality and effectiveness at practical shooting ranges [1].

[1] – An 11-year study at the Camargue, in France, found that: “After 11 years of hunting with non-toxic shot, there was unexpectedly no clear pattern in trends of individual effectiveness among hunters.” (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10344-014-0897-x)

B

Can I fire steel shot through my shotgun?

 

Steel shot is classified as either standard or high performance. If your gun is nitro-proofed (i.e. it can fire modern lead loads) then it will be safe to fire standard performance steel. This is generally steel of size 4 or smaller.

High performance steel must be marked as such on the box, and should only be fired through guns bearing the fleur-de-lys proofmark, and usually with the words “STEEL SHOT” stamped on the barrel. If you have any doubt about your gun, seek the advice of an expert gunsmith.

B

I have an old gun and am worried about possible barrel damage.

 

Tests have found that standard performance 24g steel loads did not cause any damage in thin-walled game guns, even after a thousand shots [1]. However, if you are unable to use steel then your main alternative is bismuth, which is suitable for both muzzle-loading and Damascus-barrelled guns.

Bismuth does cost more than both lead and steel but, ultimately, this is all about choices and securing the future of sustainable shooting.

[1] – The Assessment of the Tolerance of Shotgun Chokes to Steel Shot – An Initial Study: Dr DF Allsop, Royal Military College of Science (1991).

B

I was told this will be the end of high bird shooting.

 

Recent developments in soft steel shotgun cartridges should provide alternatives to lead suitable for all normal game-shooting ranges. Such ammunition is safe in the modern guns that are generally used for high bird shooting.

B

What about steel ricochets?

 

All shot can ricochet. This is most likely to occur off rocks or other hard surfaces and, to a lesser extent, water and trees.

There is evidence that steel ricochets slightly more than lead, but this is in a more predictable path [1]. The fact remains that an unsafe shot with lead is an unsafe shot with steel.

[1] – Ricochet & Bounce Back Studies Using Steel & Lead Shot: Dr DF Allsop, Defence Academy of the United Kingdom, Cranfield University (2009).

B

Am I more likely to damage a tooth on steel shot?

 

Caution should be taken when eating game, because any type of shot can damage teeth, including lead and bismuth. There is a chance of damage if you were to accidentally bite steel shot, but dentists in countries that have already phased out lead have not seen an increase in tooth damage due to biting shot since the transition.

B

Are American rules for shot ballistics different from the UK?

 

They are. Gun and cartridge manufactures must test to agreed standards. The USA standard allows for higher and faster loads than Europe.

B

Is anything being done to change this?

 

A CIP (the European organisation responsible for the safety testing of firearms and ammunition) working group, with UK representation, is studying the possibility of raising velocity and shot weight limits for steel to those set by SAAMI (the US equivalent to CIP), to increase performance. We are collectively lobbying to ensure priority for such changes.

B

Are new cartridges being developed?

 

Yes. We anticipate that, as interest and demand for non-lead shot grows, further developments in cartridge manufacture will rapidly meet any remaining needs. We are working closely with manufacturers, and lobbying for technical development grants from the government, to ensure that these advances continue apace.

B

What about those of us who use large lead shot for controlling foxes?

 

Advances in steel shot cartridges have resulted in viable lead shot alternatives for larger wildfowl such as geese. However, adult foxes may require greater shot pellet density for effective penetration, energy transfer and humane despatch.

There are a number of excellent non-lead alternatives in use for coyote and fox shooting in the USA, said by many to work even better than lead. During the transition period, we will be working with cartridge manufacturers and importers to ensure these alternatives become available in the UK.

B

What should I be asking for at my local gun shop?

 

If you have checked with a gunsmith, and are confident that your gun is suitable, we suggest using steel shot going forward. Ask for shot two sizes larger than you currently use in lead (e.g. size 4 steel if you currently use size 6 in lead) and insist on biodegradable wads.

B

Are there some countries in Europe that have stopped using lead shot?

 

Yes. Denmark, the Netherlands and the Flemish region of Belgium.

B

How have these countries got on with the alternatives?

 

They have not reported any problems with the effectiveness. Indeed, in many cases steel shot has been found to pattern more successfully than lead and to have superior levels of penetration.

B

I heard that Norway reversed its lead ban.

 

This is true, but the situation Norway faced in 2014 is quite different from where we are now, in 2020. Their principal reason for reversing a lead ban was insufficient lethality in their available non-lead rifle ammunition.

In addition, the use of shotguns in Norwegian woodland is very low compared with the UK. Furthermore, the quality of non-lead shotgun cartridges has increased significantly over the last six years and will only continue to do so during our transition period. We are not proposing any change to rifle ammunition.

B

What do you mean by a phased transition?

 

The development of non-lead cartridges has been rapid and ongoing. However, there are still improvements to be made in availability and choice, especially for smaller-gauge guns. We are therefore phasing the transition over a five-year period to enable manufacturers to bring the products that are currently in development to market.

B

Are you asking people to stop using plastic cartridge cases?

 

No. There is now a huge market for recycled plastic and we are encouraging guns to support manufacturers’ efforts to produce plastic cartridges from recycled, rather than new, plastic. We are calling for an end to non-biodegradable plastic wads in shotgun cartridges, which are not routinely or effectively collected during live quarry shooting.

B

What about ammunition for rifle target shooting, including with muzzle loading and historic arms, clay shooting and live quarry rifle shooting (including pest control and large game shooting)?

 

Viable alternatives are being researched. Where lead ammunition is used in a contained environment, such as a range, or there is an absence of reasonable alternatives, we feel lead should continue to be used.

Conor, why now , is total rubbish the so called new biodegradable wads that eley are using were being sold by purbeck shooting school in in 2013.  seven years ago and nobody has a crystal ball regarding any future EU regulations that may or may not be implemented by the uk government now we are no longer in the EU.

One wonders if commercial consideration is the real motive behind this and the single minded want of basc to protect game shooting which is big business. 
 

 

5 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

 I am sure I have seen these wads down to 20gauge but you are right, they are expensive and I just checked Claygame and they only have them in 12g and up. 

 

I would have thought though that as demand increases a biodegradable option for smaller calibres (other than bismuth etc) will become available. 

Don’t doubt that, steel will not really work in 28ga and .410 so what will we use and at what price? They are already at a premium price without all this. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by rbrowning2

[enfieldspares]

Quote

Thank you Conor for this information.

Is this Conor O'Gorman Head of BASC Policy and Campaigns? Or a different Conor O'Gorman?

I 've posted on this elsewhere. As others say welcome to the party.

Indeed the more I reflect on the BASC FAQ "reasons" the more the real reason seems clear. This voluntary lead ban is about protecting "big bag" commercial shoots which sell their game from a possible ban releasing reared game.

And to protect them the small driven shoot where the bag is shared, the gun who enjoys a traditional rough shoot walking up hedgerows and cover, the vermin shooter, all others too, all these have been sacrificed.

Why else the obsessing in BASC's FAQ with on shot game being sold into the EU? Why else the mention of game dealers and retailers refusing lead shot game? These are only relevant where bags are sold on by a shoot.

The FAQ window dressing may try to mask the intention but it now seems that the underlying reason is to save big bag shoots from a feared prohibition on large scale releasing of reared birds for commercial driven days.

And to achieve this the small time shooter and the hobby syndicate (in fact any activity we do where a huge surplus of game that has to be sold game doesn't get created) has been thrown under the bus.

And methinks this why the general "rank and file" BASC members perhaps weren't consulted in a Brexit style referendum. Because I think they wouldn't have supported this announcement.

It now must be that those that are BASC members demand an EGM, or ballot at an AGM, to order that the matter be put to a general ballot of all BASC members to decide who directs the policies of BASC. It's members? Or who?

The ancients had a two word test for the true actor of and motive behind an action.

Cui Bono? Who benefits?

So I'll match BASC's "cut and paste" of reasons for a lead ban with my own "cut and paste". This below:

"CUI BONO? Literally meaning "who benefits?," cui bono? is a rhetorical Latin legal phrase used to imply that whoever appears to have the most to gain from an action is probably behind it. More generally, it's used in English to question the meaningfulness or advantages of carrying something out."

If lead in shot pheasants shot with a shotgun is a poison then why is lead in shot deer shot with a rifle not a poison?

If lead in shot partridge shot with a shotgun is a poison then why us lead in shot rabbits shot with a rifle not a poison?

If lead shot in a limited defined area (a clay ground) isn't a problem then why is lead shot in the limited defined area of a rabbit warren a problem?

Or the limited defined area of a roost wood used by pigeons and shot in late February and early to mid-March?

The whole BASC FAQ is inconsistent nonsense.

Be clear this is ALL about protecting the "big boys" the commercial syndicates from a ban on releasing reared game and in order to do that the everyday shooter, the lad and dad shooting rabbits bolted with a ferret, the guy that enjoys a weekend a month out with his decoys, the February roost shooter have everyone been sacrificed as collateral damage.

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by enfieldspares

[rbrowning2]

8 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Is this Conor O'Gorman Head of BASC Policy and Campaigns? Or a different Conor O'Gorman?

The one and same person.

Conor you have done a fantastic job regarding communications to your members be that personal or trade members, none received any direct emails. Did you not think it might be a good ideal to at least give the trade at least one days prior notice after all you may have just put jobs and livelihoods at risk within the industry.

regarding bismuth it is classified as a rare earth metal,  Which is one reason it is expensive and great logic to try and increase its use in non recycled shot.

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by rbrowning2

[lancer425]

31 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

steel will not really work in 28ga and .410 so what will we use and at what price? They are already at a premium price without all this. 

.410 will kill duck fine on steel, get your field craft right and it will happen.  Get proper choke in and pattern it up why wont it kill these Americans killing duck to 25 yards. If you watch the video they claim less disturbance

 too.

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by lancer425

[rbrowning2]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

.410 will kill duck fine on steel, get your field craft right and it will happen.  Get proper choke in and pattern it up why wont it kill these Americans killing duck to 25 yards. If you watch the video they claim less disturbance

 too.

 

But not with a biodegradable wads I bet, as none exist for .410 and tooling up to make them will be very expensive so will it happen?

 

7 hours ago, motty said:

Really? Steel isn't that expensive at the moment. Prices would also come down in time.

But I guess you are not using the biodegradable eley vip are you motty?  Check out the price for them.

[Farmboy91]

I haven't seen it pop up on here yet, but is the availablity of steel going to be an issue?

There are supposed to be around 600,000 shooters in the UK, between clays and game I'd usually use between 1500-2000 cartridges a year. I know some will shoot less, and others much, much more. 

I think we'd also all like our sport to grow.

None of the organisations know what the markets will be like in 5 years time? I found this on Google.

'In 2016, the UK produced 8 million tonnes of steel. China produced 808 million tonnes in the same year. The EU as a whole produced 166 million tonnes of steel in 2015.' 

Now I'd imagine if anything that figure for us has probably gone down, and China, maybe until the last month or so gone up. 

It might be nothing, but whatever way you want to look at it, it's a lot of steel to supply just our industry.

[Smokersmith]

7 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

But I guess you are not using the biodegradable eley vip are you motty?  Check out the price for them.

You do not need to change now.

Alternatives will be available.

I'll be using my lead stocks up over the next 3 to 5 years, and trying alternatives on the odd drive when I've either got a reload I want to try, or see a new product priced competitively. I'm 100% sure that in 4 years time, all the big manufacturers will have loads available … including 2.5" ones.

I'll not be using the Eleys from a principle perspective as I think it's all a bit fishy.

Evolution is coming … best get a positive mindset on.

[ClemFandango]

43 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Conor, why now , is total rubbish the so called new biodegradable wads that eley are using were being sold by purbeck shooting school in in 2013.  seven years ago and nobody has a crystal ball regarding any future EU regulations that may or may not be implemented by the uk government now we are no longer in the EU.

One wonders if commercial consideration is the real motive behind this and the single minded want of basc to protect game shooting which is big business. 
 

 

Don’t doubt that, steel will not really work in 28ga and .410 so what will we use and at what price? They are already at a premium price without all this. 

You make a good point. I know cost will be high but I would be interested to try some of the heavier than lead alternatives in my .410 

As for 28 I have no experience of it, my assumption is that increasing the shot size for steel makes the pellet count too low so you really only have the option of Tungsten or Bismuth. 

 

Just now, Smokersmith said:

You do not need to change now.

Alternatives will be available.

I'll be using my lead stocks up over the next 3 to 5 years, and trying alternatives on the odd drive when I've either got a reload I want to try, or see a new product priced competitively. I'm 100% sure that in 4 years time, all the big manufacturers will have loads available … including 2.5" ones.

I'll not be using the Eleys from a principle perspective as I think it's all a bit fishy.

Evolution is coming … best get a positive mindset on.

This.  

[lancer425]

14 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

But not with a biodegradable wads I bet, as none exist for .410 and tooling up to make them will be very expensive so will it happen?

 

But I guess you are not using the biodegradable eley vip are you motty?  Check out the price for them.

Stop getting hung up about wads and non tox. Us wildfowlers already got this in order, just watch. we will be card inverted seal cork cush and card cup bucket wad loading steel etc.

 Card cups are the problem at moment sealing the inverted cup is better than plastic gas seal any way. Loads of us are looking at this already. i do not quite understand why Claygame are not listing 20ga card cups anymore. could be they will once the demand is there.

 Question for anybody "Wildfowlers" . Without looking "im on my phone"do SIARM sell these card cup wads, you know.?

[White Rabbit]

In BASC's FAQ's it states we should buy steel but not with a plastic wad. Isn't Gamebore's fibre cup offering only available in 3ins? That currently only leaves their sponsors product does it not?

I wouldn't trust Eley to roll me a fag nevermind load a steel cartridge.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out next season. My bet is 90% of guns stick with lead. How will manufacturers react? Will they still promote and advertise their lead gameloads and go against the organisations wishes? What will their brand ambassadors use? Will Dave Carrie tow the line or stick to his principles.

Interesting times ahead.

WR.

[rbrowning2]

10 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

You do not need to change now.

Alternatives will be available.

I'll be using my lead stocks up over the next 3 to 5 years, and trying alternatives on the odd drive when I've either got a reload I want to try, or see a new product priced competitively. I'm 100% sure that in 4 years time, all the big manufacturers will have loads available … including 2.5" ones.

I'll not be using the Eleys from a principle perspective as I think it's all a bit fishy.

Evolution is coming … best get a positive mindset on.

But that’s not what this is intended to achieve as I read it if your gun will use the current eley vip biodegradable steel cartridge and soon the bioammo offering them they want you to change NOW, not use the transition period as an excuse to carry on using lead.

The transition period is to they hope to allow the industry to create suitable cartridges for the rest, ie 2.5inch guns, 20ga, 28ga .410

 

 

[ClemFandango]

4 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Stop getting hung up about wads and non tox. Us wildfowlers already got this in order, just watch. we will be card inverted seal cork cush and card cup bucket wad loading steel etc.

 Card cups are the problem at moment sealing the inverted cup is better than plastic gas seal any way. Loads of us are looking at this already. i do not quite understand why Claygame are not listing 20ga card cups anymore. could be they will once the demand is there.

 Question for anybody "Wildfowlers" . Without looking "im on my phone"do SIARM sell these card cup wads, you know.?

I knew I had seen those card cups in 20g!!

3 minutes ago, White Rabbit said:

In BASC's FAQ's it states we should buy steel but not with a plastic wad. Isn't Gamebore's fibre cup offering only available in 3ins? That currently only leaves their sponsors product does it not?

I wouldn't trust Eley to roll me a fag nevermind load a steel cartridge.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out next season. My bet is 90% of guns stick with lead. How will manufacturers react? Will they still promote and advertise their lead gameloads and go against the organisations wishes? What will their brand ambassadors use? Will Dave Carrie tow the line or stick to his principles.

Interesting times ahead.

WR.

I have some gamebore biowad in 2 3/4 inch. 

[grahamch]

Having read this thread and writings on other forums it is clear that one of the main drivers for this is to try to protect a european wide market for the huge surplus of  birds from big commercial shoots, the scale of which is becoming unacceptable and along with extreme pheasants will be our downfall. 

Would it be that bad if commercial shoots were limited in what they can release and reduce the game mountain that way? 

I for one find the ethics, morality and sustainability of large scale rearing and release of game birds for shooting more dubious the older l get.

Maybe the time for reform has come? 

[lancer425]

12 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

You make a good point. I know cost will be high but I would be interested to try some of the heavier than lead alternatives in my .410 

As for 28 I have no experience of it, my assumption is that increasing the shot size for steel makes the pellet count too low so you really only have the option of Tungsten or Bismuth. 

 

.410 has always been expensive on ammo regardless. But reload and they are supper cheap. Think about steel shot , use industrial cast blast shot still inside the 90 to 115 DPH spec. for steel shot but £40 plus vat for 28KGs. type S7 that is aprox 2.8mm .  11gram of that with a TPS wad . you are looking at some very cheap shooting there.

[rbrowning2]

4 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Stop getting hung up about wads and non tox. Us wildfowlers already got this in order, just watch. we will be card inverted seal cork cush and card cup bucket wad loading steel etc.

 Card cups are the problem at moment sealing the inverted cup is better than plastic gas seal any way. Loads of us are looking at this already. i do not quite understand why Claygame are not listing 20ga card cups anymore. could be they will once the demand is there.

 Question for anybody "Wildfowlers" . Without looking "im on my phone"do SIARM sell these card cup wads, you know.?

Not getting hung up about the wads but not ignoring the facts, we all new one day lead would be banned and may be properly at a later date plastic but banning them both at the same time is creating extra problems.

card cups are thick walled presumably to stop the steel touching the bore of the gun and damaging  it so that means less volume for the ballistically inefficient steel shot.

 

[Smokersmith]

10 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

But that’s not what this is intended to achieve as I read it if your gun will use the current eley vip biodegradable steel cartridge and soon the bioammo offering them they want you to change NOW, not use the transition period as an excuse to carry on using lead.

The transition period is to they hope to allow the industry to create suitable cartridges for the rest, ie 2.5inch guns, 20ga, 28ga .410

This is where we interpret it differently ….

I think they use the term NOW to explain why they're positioning the 5 year transition now, not change now.

 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, grahamch said:

I for one find the ethics, morality and sustainability of large scale rearing and release of game birds for shooting more dubious the older l get.

Me too.  I also agree about 'getting older' and a number of my friends are feeling the same.

2 minutes ago, grahamch said:

the scale of which is becoming unacceptable and along with extreme pheasants will be our downfall.

I have to agree that the high pheasants 'game' I find particularly distasteful where blazing away with huge loads at live quarry at a distance where wounding is more likely than a clean kill seems to be the order of the day in the name of 'sport'.  However - this has been done to death and beyond on another thread and so I'll say no more and nor will I 'rise' any further.

Sadly - I don't believe the present action on lead will have much effect on either of these matters.

[rbrowning2]

2 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

.410 has always been expensive on ammo regardless. But reload and they are supper cheap. Think about steel shot , use industrial cast blast shot still inside the 90 to 115 DPH spec. for steel shot but £40 plus vat for 28KGs. type S7 that is aprox 2.8mm .  11gram of that with a TPS wad . you are looking at some very cheap shooting there.

You cannot use TPS wads they are not biodegradable, you look to want to cherry pick to carry on doing what you do.

your only choice now as of today is to go to clay and game and buy the expensive card cups if you know of another option please post it and a photo.

 

[wymberley]

41 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

.410 will kill duck fine on steel, get your field craft right and it will happen.  Get proper choke in and pattern it up why wont it kill these Americans killing duck to 25 yards. If you watch the video they claim less disturbance

 too.

 

If you were to publish that photograph on the front page of any UK newspaper as being indicative of the future of our sport, how long do you think we'd last? Answer in minutes, please.