Lead ban & BASC

[mick miller]

Fingers crossed!

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, mick miller said:

It isn't a problem? Really?

It is a well known 'problem' - and well understood - because it is neither 'new' or starting with the present 5 year plan.

[Smokersmith]

The dental side is more of a concern.

My good buddy’s father in law had nearly a grand of bill after chomping on some 3.8mm steel in some duck.

[ClemFandango]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

I will as soon as a biodegradable wad is available unless you know of a suitable one 

as for waiting that could be 5 years

Well what's the problem? You can shoot lead as normal for those five years 

[ClemFandango]

Steel shot doesn't have enough mass to be effected by the pull of an MRI magnet. It's ridiculous to suggest it will come shooting out of you. and all that other ****. 

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/mri-scan/who-can-have-it/

The danger with metal implants etc is not that it is going to come shooting out, it can heat up and cause damage to soft tissue which is why in most cases it is fine to have an MRI if you have had screws in bones etc but you must inform the doctor so they can risk assess it. 

They may X-Ray you first to see if there is genuine concern. 

As with most things you ingest though, what goes in, must come out. Ironically through the same oriface some people on this thread are talking out of. 

[motty]

12 hours ago, Scully said:

Believe you me, if lead prevented farmers from selling their produce they would be calling for an immediate ban!

I know of a shoot that was stopped because lead shot was found in the leeks destined for the supermarket. The whole lot was rejected, costing several thousand.

[ClemFandango]

17 minutes ago, motty said:

I know of a shoot that was stopped because lead shot was found in the leeks destined for the supermarket. The whole lot was rejected, costing several thousand.

I know of the same with lettuces. 

Although I don't think it was because the shot was lead, or any other material, just because it was there.  

[motty]

11 hours ago, blankmag said:

i feel let  really down by   basc BUT BUT BUT  we all new a lead ban was going to happen (WELL WE DID WE ALL NEW  IT WAS ON THE CARDS at some point ) FIVE YEARS TO SORT THE MESS OUT  . i think what ever we shoot in 12 ,16 ,20 ,28 and .410 we as shooters  GAME ,VERMIN ,PEST CONTROL  ECT  the cartridge manufacturers will come good . lets face it eley ,gamebore can find a solution to plastic eco plastic wads  fiber steel wads  wads the rest will follow .. FOR ONCE LETS BE ON THE FRONT FOOT BEST INTENTIONS ECT  lets defend our sport  . must admit 300 - 500 bird days will be the end of game shooting (how can you defend our sport to the general public at this level of birds killed ) weather thay shoot lead or non toxic . 

 

 

 

 

 

Please tell me the difference between a 100 bird day and a 300 bird day? And don't say "200 birds."

[hod]

11 minutes ago, motty said:

Please tell me the difference between a 100 bird day and a 300 bird day? And don't say "200 birds."

🤣 just as well you added the last bit... everyone was reaching for their keyboards! 

[wymberley]

None of this is going to affect me, but has anyone wondered where we're going to go with it?. At the moment there is no obligation for anybody to do anything. So, as of now there is probably  a minimum five year life for lead. Let's assume that the government is far too busy with other aspects of our daily lives and has no input in this matter - understandably so just at the moment. So, when the five years is up, what happens then? Do the organisations extend their scheme? Or does the government step in having sorted out (fat chance!) all of the brexit challenges and decides to replace the voluntary moritorium with an outright ban. Because what we have is voluntary, then there is going to have to be a reasonable timescale for the loaders who quite legally have just taken delivery of 100 tons of lead to turn that into shot, for it to be loaded, the cartridges made, sold and used. You get my point which is nothing more really than just pointing out that contrary to some opinions can not and will not happen overnight. I would guess that this would add another 5 years on to the existing 5 voluntary ones. Unless, of course, the government is prepared to pay out compensation at a level which matches the cost of 50 miles of HS2 track.

The worst and most disruptive aspect of this whole situation is doubt. Consequently, my view would be that the organisations move as quickly as the goverment will permit  and arrange between them to produce a sensible - but adjustable where it becomes necessary - timescale to pass the necessary legislation. The organisations have put us in this potentially intolerable situation so it's up to them to remove all damaging doubt and get us out of it.

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, mick miller said:

Literally cannot wait for my MRI scan after ingesting steel shot game. Shouldn't be an issue, provided it doesn't hit an artery on the way out.

That is a shame, i mean you would have been in such a better shape if you had swallowed a nice nickel plated Lead pellet of the same size.

[lancer425]

28 minutes ago, wymberley said:

None of this is going to affect me, but has anyone wondered where we're going to go with it?. At the moment there is no obligation for anybody to do anything. So, as of now there is probably  a minimum five year life for lead. Let's assume that the government is far too busy with other aspects of our daily lives and has no input in this matter - understandably so just at the moment. So, when the five years is up, what happens then? Do the organisations extend their scheme? Or does the government step in having sorted out (fat chance!) all of the brexit challenges and decides to replace the voluntary moritorium with an outright ban. Because what we have is voluntary, then there is going to have to be a reasonable timescale for the loaders who quite legally have just taken delivery of 100 tons of lead to turn that into shot, for it to be loaded, the cartridges made, sold and used. You get my point which is nothing more really than just pointing out that contrary to some opinions can not and will not happen overnight. I would guess that this would add another 5 years on to the existing 5 voluntary ones. Unless, of course, the government is prepared to pay out compensation at a level which matches the cost of 50 miles of HS2 track.

The worst and most disruptive aspect of this whole situation is doubt. Consequently, my view would be that the organisations move as quickly as the goverment will permit  and arrange between them to produce a sensible - but adjustable where it becomes necessary - timescale to pass the necessary legislation. The organisations have put us in this potentially intolerable situation so it's up to them to remove all damaging doubt and get us out of it.

100 tons of lead is  just over half a million 6 oz sea fishing weights. A quid a piece its not all bad news.

[JohnfromUK]

47 minutes ago, hod said:

🤣 just as well you added the last bit... everyone was reaching for their keyboards! 

Even Diane Abbott could have got close of that was the answer!

[Old farrier]

2 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

Well what's the problem? You can shoot lead as normal for those five years 

The problem is to comply with a voluntary ban you must have the means to do it 

the product is not available to comply 

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

The problem is to comply with a voluntary ban you must have the means to do it 

the product is not available to comply 

For many of us - it won't be at 'day 1',  but at some stage over the next 5 years - I think that many peoples needs for a suitable ready loaded cartridge will be met - and I will try them then ....... and take it from there.  I can't really comment on home load materials because I'm not a home loader, so don't really know the market - but like so many things - if there is a market there, someone is likely to fill it.

IF at the end of 5 years (and I think it is highly unlikely) there are big gaps where no suitable cartridge is available - I will be lobbying the organisations for delay/suspension/alternatives, and lobbying the cartridge makers for getting their act together to meet the need.

[oldypigeonpopper]

5 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

For many of us - it won't be at 'day 1',  but at some stage over the next 5 years - I think that many peoples needs for a suitable ready loaded cartridge will be met - and I will try them then ....... and take it from there.  I can't really comment on home load materials because I'm not a home loader, so don't really know the market - but like so many things - if there is a market there, someone is likely to fill it.

IF at the end of 5 years (and I think it is highly unlikely) there are big gaps where no suitable cartridge is available - I will be lobbying the organisations for delay/suspension/alternatives, and lobbying the cartridge makers for getting their act together to meet the need.

hello, i was interested to see the cost of home load lead shot compared to steel, quite a difference in price but i would say the shot cups would cost more?

[wymberley]

46 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

100 tons of lead is  just over half a million 6 oz sea fishing weights. A quid a piece its not all bad news.

A conciliatory post; good to see you've finally seen sense.

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC weekly email newsletter was sent out yesterday afternoon. This issue covered a range of key topic including the joint statement on the future of lead and single-use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting.

Visit https://mailchi.mp/8e4c7ee4def1/the-latest-from-basc-1761033  to read this week's BASC newsletter

Anyone, BASC member or not, can sign up for the newsletter.

Visit https://basc.org.uk/basc-live/ to sign up.

Next week, BASC's bi-monthly membership magazine 'Shooting and Conservation' will start arriving with members in the post. The magazine will also include information on the joint statement and shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting.

There is lots of information on our website at https://basc.org.uk/lead/

See also:

Joint statement and video
https://basc.org.uk/a-joint-statement-on-the-future-of-shotgun-ammunition-for-live-quarry-shooting/

BASC guide to using non-lead shot for live quarry shooting
https://basc.org.uk/lead/guide-to-using-non-lead-shot/

The appeal of steel
https://basc.org.uk/the-appeal-of-steel/

STEEL – more than a glance
https://basc.org.uk/steel-more-than-a-glance/

 
The View from Afar (from the perspective of the US, The Netherlands and Denmark)
https://basc.org.uk/the-view-from-afar/

A soluble solution? (James Green testing eco-wad and reference to plastics)
https://basc.org.uk/a-soluble-solution/

 
Lead shot: A historical reflection
https://basc.org.uk/lead-shot-a-historical-reflection/

 
Westminster welcome for lead-free pledge
https://basc.org.uk/westminster-welcome-for-lead-free-pledge/

Defra issues statement in response to lead ammunition announcement
https://basc.org.uk/defra-issues-statement-in-response-to-lead-ammunition-announcement/

 

For any BASC members reading this that wish to put their concerns on record with BASC or have any other feedback or requests for advice on this topic - please email lead@basc.org.uk or phone 01244 573057.

[wymberley]

10 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

For many of us - it won't be at 'day 1',  but at some stage over the next 5 years - I think that many peoples needs for a suitable ready loaded cartridge will be met - and I will try them then ....... and take it from there.  I can't really comment on home load materials because I'm not a home loader, so don't really know the market - but like so many things - if there is a market there, someone is likely to fill it.

IF at the end of 5 years (and I think it is highly unlikely) there are big gaps where no suitable cartridge is available - I will be lobbying the organisations for delay/suspension/alternatives, and lobbying the cartridge makers for getting their act together to meet the need.

Just one point - a small gap is still a big gap to anyone affected by it.

[Smokersmith]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

The worst and most disruptive aspect of this whole situation is doubt. Consequently, my view would be that the organisations move as quickly as the goverment will permit  and arrange between them to produce a sensible - but adjustable where it becomes necessary - timescale to pass the necessary legislation. The organisations have put us in this potentially intolerable situation so it's up to them to remove all damaging doubt and get us out of it

I'm more optimistic, and see no doubt. Lead is going, and we have to get used to it.

The orgs. have put a dot on the horizon, for us all to work towards … that means the ammo manufacturers, gun trade, game shoots, and ourselves.

My guess is that in 3 to 4 years time, we'll be able to assess what the progress has been, and if we've seen successful products launch then it's a logical step to formalise the ban in law. If as an industry we're struggling, I would expect the orgs. to lobby to maintain the voluntary status until a point where the situation is tolerable for the majority of situations.

This is my sincere hope at least. 

1 minute ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC weekly email newsletter was sent out yesterday afternoon. This issue covered a range of key topic including the joint statement on the future of lead and single-use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting.

Perhaps the odd advert from Eley ?

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, i was interested to see the cost of home load lead shot compared to steel, quite a difference in price but i would say the shot cups would cost more?

As a non home loader, I can't comment because I don't know the pricing.  I suppose it depends on;

• The raw material (e.g. degradable plastic, mouldable fibre or whatever) cost and availability
• The volumes made - if it is just a 'part' already made for factory loaders - this may (should) hepp
• How they choose to price it - which will depend on what competition there is I suspect.

If only one supply is made specially for home loaders and not just a 'diversion' of a design made for factory loading - I guess it may be expensive.  If on the other hand some plastic supplier in China or somewhere moulds billions for all of the main cartridge suppliers and does say 'bags of 1000' for home loaders as a sideline, it may be very competitive.

Like I say, I don't understand the market (or the marketing) that may apply

6 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Just one point - a small gap is still a big gap to anyone affected by it.

I'm taking a positive view - maybe in 4 years and 6 months time - I may be panicking ........ but not yet.

[lancer425]

28 minutes ago, wymberley said:

A conciliatory post; good to see you've finally seen sense.

.

[lancer425]

38 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, i was interested to see the cost of home load lead shot compared to steel, quite a difference in price but i would say the shot cups would cost more?

Wads are not cheap compared to lead, I like RSI sam1s they certainly are not cheap. Now we need to look at the alternative wadding that becomes available. In a way i am on the one hand annoyed plas wads have gone and have to start all over again working up reloads. But on the other hand we learned a lot over the last 20 years and i am genuinely looking forward to this challenge. 

The current card cup wads and potential pin holing is a little concerning, and as yet my own verdict is out on that one. But i think it could be a case of go forward slowly see exactly what is happening.

One other thing i think might work in these card wads is a longitudinal corrugation of these wads as in the Mentioned RSI wads. this will help with any pin holing and might be a good idea.

[clangerman]

i’m not saying lead should not be banned it should be but not before plastic everyone from sky to schools are against it the antis will now rightly claim we are still chucking plastic and metal into the environment had we gone with a plastic ban and fired steel from recycled paper and metal cases nobody could deny we are doing our part not even the antis so instead of giving it let’s move on pretend it’s ok people should be asking if a half wit like myself can see a plastic ban was a no lose option how come the shooting organisations didn’t see it living in denial does not change the truth 

[ClemFandango]

2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

The problem is to comply with a voluntary ban you must have the means to do it 

the product is not available to comply 

voluntary