David BASC Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 (edited) Cases can be collected and recycles easily, the wads are not so easy to collect. I am very aware of the issues of the limits of availability of steel outside of 10,12,and 20, an the smaller calibres tend to be bismuth, but of course rather costly! My point is, and perhaps not well explained, that the cartridge manufactures know as well as everyone else what's happening internationally and what's on the horizon. Now I am not in the cartridge business but I can predict they are working like the clappers to develop wad, shot and powder combinations that will keep them in business. Enfield, I have already explained the difference between shooting over a clay ground (shot confined to a relatively small area and in some cases recovered too) and shooting over fields etc (where the shot is deposited over a wider area into an environment where its not as easy to be recovered) and of course there is also loads of scientific and peer reviewed research to back that up, but back you come with sarcastic comments, which is rather disappointing. . But are you hinting that the orgs should look to ask for a voluntary ban of lead for clay shooting too? As I say, times are changing as we need to change too Edited March 19, 2020 by David BASC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 Quote I think non lead is currently available in 10, 12, 20, 16 and 28 and I guess they have these in production because there is sufficient demand in the UK. What others are available outside the UK I don't know, but I guess it will be easy enough to find out? So you "think". You "don't know". But you "guess". But "thinking" and "don't knowing" and "guessing" that's good enough is it, sound enough is it, sensible enough is it to overnight overturn BASC's policy of "no evidence - no change"? Because if wishes were horses beggars would ride wouldn't they. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 (edited) Oh please, as you honestly going to rip apart every post I make, just because I am using conversational English? Well I guess I can expect that of you... not exactly helping the debate are you? Edited March 19, 2020 by David BASC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, David BASC said: Oh please, as you honestly going to rip apart every post I make, just because I am using conversational English? Well I guess I can expect that of you... not exactly helping the debate are you? to be honest for someone screaming basc consulted with cartridge manufacturers basc does not have many answers for him do you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, David BASC said: As I have said, what additional cartridges are available in non lead over the next 5 years will depend entirely on what the cartridge manufacturers can deliver, and I am sure they will focus on market demand. I think non lead is currently available in 10, 12, 20, 16 and 28 and I guess they have these in production because there is sufficient demand in the UK. What others are available outside the UK I don't know, but I guess it will be easy enough to find out? Ignorance is bliss, do you not think you should have done some home work first before making such a big decision at this time? The uk cartridge manufactures have told you what they can deliver in one word IMPOSSIBLE ok a few foreign cartridge manufacture may offer a few 12ga loads which comply ie non toxic shot and biodegradable wads so you are basically happy to see uk cartridge manufacture go bust. You have created a monopoly with no need for price competition so prices will be considerably more that a lead shot equivalent cartridge. Edited March 19, 2020 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 When did I scream, or are you just making things up? What point are you trying to make that is relevant to this thread? As I have said the cartridge manufacturers will supply cartridges based on demand, and based on the wad, shot powder combinations they have now and are developing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 Just now, David BASC said: When did I scream, or are you just making things up? What point are you trying to make that is relevant to this thread? As I have said the cartridge manufacturers will supply cartridges based on demand, and based on the wad, shot powder combinations they have now and are developing i’m simply saying the cartridge manufacturers did not give you the answers you need maybe it’s time to call them onto the forum to explain their self it’s not much of a show they gave basc is it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 Just now, David BASC said: When did I scream, or are you just making things up? What point are you trying to make that is relevant to this thread? As I have said the cartridge manufacturers will supply cartridges based on demand, and based on the wad, shot powder combinations they have now and are developing You are flying on a wing and a prayer, you have no idea if the technical challenges to produce biodegradable wads in any volume and any gauge other than 12 are even possible, Because you never even thought to ask the wad manufactures that supply all the cartridge manufactures what they could deliver now or in the next five years did you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 David Ilsley (BASC) said:- Arguing against steel shot is totally counterproductive. Meanwhile, we see some stating a 'lets show how bad steel shot is' as a way of defending lead shot, sorry guys but that will not work! But worst of all you now start attacking the lowest cost non lead alternative, do you want to see steel shot prohibited? David , as you probably very well know , I am totally against soft iron shot as an alternative to Lead , because it is inefficient and ineffective in comparison . I am absolutely dismayed at BASC's about face , when not long ago BASC stated that there was no substantial evidence or reason to ban the use of Lead , in fact not too long ago Peter Glenser BASC CEO at the time said the debate was now over . Furthermore I notice that no one has correctly answered my questions asked in my last post ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Salopian said: David Ilsley (BASC) said:- Arguing against steel shot is totally counterproductive. Meanwhile, we see some stating a 'lets show how bad steel shot is' as a way of defending lead shot, sorry guys but that will not work! But worst of all you now start attacking the lowest cost non lead alternative, do you want to see steel shot prohibited? David , as you probably very well know , I am totally against soft iron shot as an alternative to Lead , because it is inefficient and ineffective in comparison . I am absolutely dismayed at BASC's about face , when not long ago BASC stated that there was no substantial evidence or reason to ban the use of Lead , in fact not too long ago Peter Glenser BASC CEO at the time said the debate was now over . Furthermore I notice that no one has correctly answered my questions asked in my last post ! It is in that research. its on google books i just saw it. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NspoQ2IQ66oC&pg=RA7-PA24&lpg=RA7-PA24&dq=steel+shot+effects+on+grassland&source=bl&ots=dcXfZ3zFBF&sig=ACfU3U0GU0A3h75naBMv-56GZDZ86bGicQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwir_ZHe5aboAhWLN8AKHdLCCMsQ6AEwCnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=steel shot effects on grassland&f=false Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 I’ve been trying to read some of these papers on lead v non toxic, it’s very tedious, to many variables and supposition for me. Lots of very site specific tests, birds are in there nature very mobile, and how can the history of any variable be taken in to account if it can’t be 100% verified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McSpredder Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 We know that the ECHA asked for evidence and information on lead shot to be provided by 16 December 2019. Presumably the UK shooting organisations responded, but I don’t recall seeing a copy of anything submitted on my behalf by either BASC or CA. Have I missed something, or is this information not being revealed to the membership? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 (edited) Quote Enfield, I have already explained the difference between shooting over a clay ground (shot confined to a relatively small area and in some cases recovered too) and shooting over fields etc (where the shot is deposited over a wider area into an environment where its not as easy to be recovered) Do people not shoot clay pigeons over fields etc.? And do wild birds not visit or forage over such fields where they do? Because in Leicestershire they do and over a couple of clay shooting venues are in the very same fields that between November to January that they shoot pheasants over. Please explain is what is the difference between in December and January a line of ten guns shooting fortnightly maybe two hundred cartridges on a drive of pheasants out of Covert Copse Wood on Lord Double-Gunn's estate and a line of ten guns shooting maybe weekly six hundred cartridges on a flurry on a simulated game day from the same Lord Double-Gunn's Covert Copse Wood five months later in May or June before he releases that year's poults? Also did BASC do any research into how many clay grounds recover deposited lead shot? And what fraction is that of the total weight of fired lead expended there per twelve months? Or in fact did it do none at all? Because being as you say "confined to a relatively small area" research would surely be able to compare bird deaths and other animal mortality (from lead shot ingestion) in a non-wetland area where clay pigeons have been shot to a bird deaths and other animal mortality over a similar non-wetland confined area where clay pigeons have never been shot wouldn't it? There are clay pigeon grounds on non-wetlands in the UK that have been shot over for decades using lead shot. The shot fall-out area of some for example for forty years onto pasture on which sheep and or meat or dairy cattle have always been put out onto. So the researchers would not be short of finding venues to test the above question of the effect of lead shot on wild birds in that are of of wild or non-wild including livestock animals. Edited March 19, 2020 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted March 19, 2020 Report Share Posted March 19, 2020 (edited) Quote I think non lead is currently available in 10, 12, 20, 16 and 28 and I guess they have these in production because there is sufficient demand in the UK. What others are available outside the UK I don't know, but I guess it will be easy enough to find out? Quote Oh please, as you honestly going to rip apart every post I make, just because I am using conversational English? Well I guess I can expect that of you... not exactly helping the debate are you? Conversational English expresses well enough the truth of any position. Or are you saying that you could have written you response as this: I know non lead is currently available in 10, 12, 20, 16 and 28 and I know they have these in production because there is sufficient demand in the UK. What others are available outside the UK I don't know, but I know it will be easy enough to find out. Because firstly clearly I don't think you either did know or meaningfully got to know because the forcefulness of the response of the UK cartridge manufactures...they used in capital letter (as I do now) the word IMPOSSIBLE...gives the lie to being able to "have these in production" within five years. As does their rebuke about any consultation also give the lie to it being "easy enough to find out". Edited March 19, 2020 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 20, 2020 Report Share Posted March 20, 2020 As I have said many times and as we have posted on the BASC website we will continue to engage with the cartridge manufacturers and seek additional financial support for them. The impacts of lead away from shooting grounds is well documented, but if you or anyone else wants to discuss banning lead from clay shooting grounds , I suggest you discuss this with the CPSA before posting such comments on forums. As to the efficacy of steel shot, there are pages and pages on this and other forums from shooters who have been using steel for years to great effect. By the way, Peter G was not the CEO he was the Chairman There is little more I can say at the moment, and most of the questions that have been asked and continue to be asked repeatedly can be answered by looking at the FAQ section of the lead pages on the BASC web. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 20, 2020 Report Share Posted March 20, 2020 On 04/03/2020 at 16:06, rbrowning2 said: So we wade through and carry on as before and get to the end of this seasons game shooting to find 70% of the millions of game birds cannot be sold as nobody wants to eat game shot with lead. What are we going to do with them? and how do we then justify repeating the whole thing again the following year, no market = no shooting simple. You can bang on about how we should have moved to steel years ago but in practice it has not happened in anything but a very small niche way and it is very unlikely the situation will magically changed over the next few years given it has taken twenty years to get to where we are today. I do not think adverts like this one, which carry a lead shot warning on them help with sales at all. If marketed LEAD FREE, i feel sales could well pick up. https://www.campbellsmeat.com/product/whole-pheasant.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted March 20, 2020 Report Share Posted March 20, 2020 8 minutes ago, lancer425 said: I do not think adverts like this one, which carry a lead shot warning on them help with sales at all. If marketed LEAD FREE, i feel sales could well pick up. https://www.campbellsmeat.com/product/whole-pheasant.html That warning will still be there if shot with steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted March 20, 2020 Report Share Posted March 20, 2020 28 minutes ago, lancer425 said: I do not think adverts like this one, which carry a lead shot warning on them help with sales at all. If marketed LEAD FREE, i feel sales could well pick up. https://www.campbellsmeat.com/product/whole-pheasant.html cant see a problem with the ad,people can decide?,how about if food companies display "free range shot game" on their soup?,consumers who normally choose to eat game will know it's probably shot with lead,tesco have sold shot game but i've never seen it in the "reduced price section", Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted March 20, 2020 Report Share Posted March 20, 2020 42 minutes ago, old'un said: That warning will still be there if shot with steel. This !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 20, 2020 Report Share Posted March 20, 2020 1 hour ago, old'un said: That warning will still be there if shot with steel. But it wont say. LEAD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted March 20, 2020 Report Share Posted March 20, 2020 14 minutes ago, lancer425 said: But it wont say. LEAD! The only warning I can recall ever having seen simply said "shot". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted March 20, 2020 Report Share Posted March 20, 2020 How long would the game dealer be allowed to remain trading if he doesn't list an added non natural extra in the meat? He'd be better off not selling the bird so none would get sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted March 20, 2020 Report Share Posted March 20, 2020 29 minutes ago, lancer425 said: But it wont say. LEAD! Yes, but the majority of none shooters who were buying game would not give it much relevance, whether it said ‘may contain lead or steel shot’ if its on the super market shelves they take it to-be safe to eat, and it is, lead or steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted March 20, 2020 Report Share Posted March 20, 2020 Do retailers label beer and potatoes and gawd knows what else..........as containing lead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted March 20, 2020 Report Share Posted March 20, 2020 the only thing of real interest to joe public on the label is the price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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