Anyone else supporting the Govt.?

[oldypigeonpopper]

33 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Is there one person who actually believes that "track, trace and isolate" is an answer? I think it is totally flawed and has more holes than a colander.

hello, look who is processing this Serco, they have a poor track record, already had 300 peoples info shared with other sources

[Mice!]

37 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Is there one person who actually believes that "track, trace and isolate" is an answer? I think it is totally flawed and has more holes than a colander.

But isn't that what they did in Germany?

The problem as I see it is making it work, if someone gets a text saying they were in contact with someone else who has displayed symptoms, what makes them not just ignore it?

[Vince Green]

People have been saying for a long time that the NHS has been responsible for causing the virus to be spread, you could almost say deliberately, into care homes 

[Retsdon]

9 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Is there one person who actually believes that "track, trace and isolate" is an answer? I think it is totally flawed and has more holes than a colander.

Why not read the Telegraph piece that I linked to above?

 https://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/the-handling-of-covid-19-has-led-to-a-very-british-disaster-20200514-p54ssd.html

The Conservative, Brexit, and Boris supporting Telegraph is hardly a nest of leftist propaganda. You won't get dirty reading its columnists. 🙂

Edited May 21, 2020 by Retsdon

[Scully]

22 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Why not read the Telegraph piece that I linked to above?

 https://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/the-handling-of-covid-19-has-led-to-a-very-british-disaster-20200514-p54ssd.html

The Conservative, Brexit, and Boris supporting Telegraph is hardly a nest of leftist propaganda. You won't get dirty reading its columnists. 🙂

Possibly, but I have more interesting things to do. Just get out there and live Retsdon; you seem overly obsessed with the media. 🙂

[Old farrier]

10 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Is there one person who actually believes that "track, trace and isolate" is an answer? I think it is totally flawed and has more holes than a colander.

Probably not the best answer however with the lack of other ideas it’s about all there is 

unless you have a good alternative to get the country out of lockdown? 
 

[henry d]

3 hours ago, Vince Green said:

People have been saying for a long time that the NHS has been responsible for causing the virus to be spread, you could almost say deliberately, into care homes 

Which people, and what proof of deliberate action?

11 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Is there one person who actually believes that "track, trace and isolate" is an answer? I think it is totally flawed and has more holes than a colander.

Is it worth trying and modifying as we learn from it? What are the other options?

[Gordon R]

I didn't say I had a better option, but question just how effective it will be. It relies on people being totally honest, having an excellent memory and the co-operation of all people named as contacts. I suspect criminals, drug dealers, sex industry workers, people having an affair, illegals,  are examples of people who will not give a full account.

It then relies on those named adhering to the rules. History suggests they won't.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Gordon R

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

It then relies on those named adhering to the rules.

Since I believe it is 'voluntary' in that you have to download the app for it to apply to you .......... anyone with anything 'dodgy' will not download it, and also many of the 'at risk' elderly may either not have a suitable phone, may not switch their phones on or take them with them, or may not be in the habit of downloading apps.

Again - as I understand it - you have to 'let the app know' when you think you may be getting ill.  I would be concerned that would not happen either with some of the elderly, who don't naturally 'interact' with their phones in the same enthusiastic way the young do.

I don't know how counties that use these apps (I believe S. Korea does rely on this method?) ensure that enough people reliably and consistently participate?

[enfieldspares]

On 15/05/2020 at 14:50, Raja Clavata said:

OK, I've just been released from the PW correction facility and am happy to confirm this government is perfect and anything less than optimal can be pinned on Blair and Brown.

Yes. It's all their fault. And that other one too. Heath.

[oldypigeonpopper]

3 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Yes. It's all their fault. And that other one too. Heath.

hello, please dont let this thread go off track reference past prime ministers and how good they were, NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Raja Clavata]

17 hours ago, Retsdon said:

I wonder that you find it funny.

Originally in the Telegraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/05/12/governments-handling-covid-19-british-disaster/   Outside the Telegraph paywall here . https://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/the-handling-of-covid-19-has-led-to-a-very-british-disaster-20200514-p54ssd.html  if you want to read the full article.

'A COVID cardiologist at a top London hospital - friendly to Boris - has been so incensed by the daily charade of bogus omniscience that he vented his spleen in an email to me on Sunday night. It is a poignant indictment, so I pass along a few snippets.

'Every mistake that could have been made, was made.' He likened the care home policy to the Siege of Caffa in 1346, that grim chapter of the Black Death when a Mongol army catapulted plague-ridden bodies over the walls.

"Our policy was to let the virus rip and then 'cocoon the elderly'," he wrote. "You don't know whether to laugh or cry when you contrast that with what we actually did. We discharged known, suspected, and unknown cases into care homes which were unprepared, with no formal warning that the patients were infected, no testing available, and no PPE to prevent transmission.

"We actively seeded this into the very population that was most vulnerable. We let people die without palliation. The official policy was not to visit care homes - and they didn't (and still don't). So, after infecting them with a disease that causes an unpleasant ending, we denied our elders access to a doctor and denied admission to hospital. Simple things like fluids, withheld. Effective palliation like syringe drivers, withheld."

Personally  I find it hard to laugh.

And as is the case with just about everything, the reality lies somewhere between the two bookends.

[Raja Clavata]

14 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Is there one person who actually believes that "track, trace and isolate" is an answer? I think it is totally flawed and has more holes than a colander.

An effective track, trace and isolate implementation appears to be a very effective instrument, if we believe what other countries like South Korea are saying.

The two key aspects of it being effective are a) that the technology works and b) enough people use it properly.

I'm not up to date with the latest scoop on all this (buried with work) but even if the tech is flawless, we have a very different culture to South Korea (pretty much all Asian countries) so the degree to which it becomes a blunt instrument for the UK is unclear to me. My instinct however tells me that you are probably right.

That said, I don't see too many other choices but to roll it out and improve both the tech and the education of the public using it over time...

[Gordon R]

A relative has been the recipient of one of the texts - she told my wife that she expected to be called for a test, but received only the same advice we have now - isolate and use a bit of commonsense.

I honestly hope it becomes effective, but am not holding my breath.

[Lord v]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

And as is the case with just about everything, the reality lies somewhere between the two bookends.

As always. 

My only comment is that policy does not remove personal and professional responsibility. 

 

[henry d]

3 hours ago, Gordon R said:

. It relies on people being totally honest, having an excellent memory and the co-operation of all people named as contacts.

I believe that it also uses the app to alert all the others who have the app and been in close contact with over xx days. If the majority have the app it would be good?

[JohnfromUK]

There is some data on how the proposed NHS app works here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52442754

Note that the areas being promoted as highly successful in reducing infections by track and trace (e.g. S. Korea) have both full phone tracking, card transaction monitoring and CCTV monitoring  - and available for state/government surveillance - something that wouldn't be popular with many in the UK.  In addition it seems that to be properly effective, it would need an 80% take up in smart phone users.  Would 80% of the smartphone using population of the UK be happy to have it?  I suspect not.

[Gordon R]

The most vulnerable are the elderly and how many have access to the App or know how to download it?

I am sure that the UK has the technology to emulate South Korea, but selling that to the public would be another thing. They seem to be voting with their feet in pushing the boundaries of the current rules and I doubt a  "Police state"  would get much support.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Gordon R

[Raja Clavata]

This is why I'm skeptical as to its effectiveness.

Of course what remains to be seen is just how important this tool becomes, if the number of new infections recorded in London yesterday persists and the rest of the UK starts to follow suit then who knows.

[Old farrier]

4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Since I believe it is 'voluntary' in that you have to download the app for it to apply to you .......... anyone with anything 'dodgy' will not download it, and also many of the 'at risk' elderly may either not have a suitable phone, may not switch their phones on or take them with them, or may not be in the habit of downloading apps.

Again - as I understand it - you have to 'let the app know' when you think you may be getting ill.  I would be concerned that would not happen either with some of the elderly, who don't naturally 'interact' with their phones in the same enthusiastic way the young do.

I don't know how counties that use these apps (I believe S. Korea does rely on this method?) ensure that enough people reliably and consistently participate?

Or maybe the elderly arnt as daft as you think 

it’s not perfect but it’s there and a lot better than nothing

im pretty sure they could make a wristband type thing that would do the job and then the vulnerability would know if they had any contact with potential carriers 

as I said in another thread and got shot down I personally think it should be a lot stricter with tracking of movements included and restrictions on the distance people can go for pleasure 

sadly it’s like a bank holiday weekend here today 

1 hour ago, henry d said:

I believe that it also uses the app to alert all the others who have the app and been in close contact with over xx days. If the majority have the app it would be good?

Anyone that you have been within 5 meters of for 15 minutes or more in the last 14 days 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Old farrier

[JohnfromUK]

12 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

as I said in another thread and got shot down I personally think it should be a lot stricter with tracking of movements included and restrictions on the distance people can go for pleasure 

I don't personally have a problem with that; I'd rather tackle it hard and get it over with, and I don't have a problem with being tracked if there is a genuine need.

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

I don't personally have a problem with that; I'd rather tackle it hard and get it over with, and I don't have a problem with being tracked if there is a genuine need.

I’m of the opinion that it’s got to be hard and enforced I’m aware that the civil rights groups don’t want it but that’s probably because they are breaking the rules and interpretation to suit there selves 

do you know if it’s spreading around your area ?

or 

being brought in to your area?

[Retsdon]

8 hours ago, Scully said:

Just get out there and live Retsdon;

Next year - this one is starting to look like a  complete write off.

But actually, I"m beginning to think that I should have taken the repatriation flight to the UK that was on offer last week. All flights to Thailand are now closed until the end of June (three days ago they just put it back from the end of May ) so my hopes of getting out of here have been dashed at least until July at the very earliest. So currently I'm locked down in Saudi with not even online teaching to pass the time. It's doing solitary bird, really. And I'm supposed to start work again in mid-August.   Which is why I maybe should have taken the UK flight because if  If I'd gone to the UK I could have enrolled for the agricultural workforce thing. I'm probably  past the time of life when I want to be bent over all day picking strawberries or lifting tatties,  but I"m computer literate and I can drive a tractor and I can get up in the mornings. I image they could have found me something. And as I can't see my family it would have at least given me something to do. Could have seen my sister too.....

Anyway....here we are..

 

[JohnfromUK]

10 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

do you know if it’s spreading around your area ?

or 

being brought in to your area?

There is no doubt in my mind that Cheltenham Race week spread much of the start here.  Many many people (they sold over 200,000 tickets) and many people staying locally - plus much use of pubs, bars, restaurants etc. .......... all in the week before lockdown.  We got off to a 'flying start' due to that, however I think we are well on the decline now.  Generally locals have been good, and people well behaved, but traffic has increased greatly in the last couple of weeks.  Roads were almost empty for a month or so.

4 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

I'm probably  past the time of life when I want to be bent over all day picking strawberries or lifting tatties,  but I"m computer literate and I can drive a tractor and I can get up in the mornings.

I can do computer stuff, and I can drive a tractor and I can get up in the mornings, but fruit and veg picking isn't a job for the 'older' (I'm 63).  Round here - it's soft fruit like strawberries and ground growing veg - particularly spring onions.  I couldn't do it now, but have done some 40 years ago.  Just the thought makes my back twinge!  Couple of hours weeding in my own garden and I'm seized up.

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

I’m of the opinion that it’s got to be hard and enforced I’m aware that the civil rights groups don’t want it but that’s probably because they are breaking the rules and interpretation to suit there selves 

do you know if it’s spreading around your area ?

or 

being brought in to your area?

Ireland are saying you can travel 5km I think, I don't see anything wrong with that in the circumstances,  but obviously a lot of folk will complain at just about anything that restricts them.

According to the Saturday's paper I work in the town with the highest number of cases or test results,  but I still thankfully don't know anyone directly that's been infected.