Hidden agenda?

[clangerman]

Just now, andrewluke said:

 you mention "heavier than lead ammunition" ,this wont be steel!,steel will never out perform lead

blasphemy! lol using my steel as a door stop now 

[lancer425]

5 minutes ago, adzyvilla said:

I must state, that I did not intend this to become yet another pro/anti lead argument thread. I merely used it as an example of the shooting press tail wagging the shooting community dog. I feel that my other examples about the increasing (perceived) subliminal attacks on game shooting are more worrying, as in the end, the change from lead whilst another cut on the way to the death of 1000, is not going to stop us enjoying shooting, but move against game shooting will signal the end of live quarry shooting in short order. 

Thanks for all your comments so far. 

I think the press as always steered the shooting world to some extent. right from the ancient shooting times and the days of wildfowler etc.

Times changing are not a new thing, but i do feel we have more than our fair share of changes being thrust upon our sport right now. And i am not altogether convinced its down to the shooting press or its writers.

Writers of such periodicals must struggle to keep interest in what is a fairly bland sport. Technical articles are fraught with risking falling between two stools, by being short enough to maintain interest and yet not containing enough technical info to satisfy those seeking more technical info. And as such appealing to nobody. I imagine its hard being a shooting writer and even harder to be a successful one. And one that is successful and popular must be the unicorn of the sporting writer world.

13 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

 you mention "heavier than lead ammunition" ,this wont be steel!,steel will never out perform lead

I humoured you answered your question genuinely. Any further input here, will derail this thread . Start your own thread to make claims like that. This is not the place .

[Konor]

31 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Using up what i have in stock, and in this at the same time buying time to develop modern heavier than lead ammunition, that can out perform Lead in every count from a performance angle. Lead is headed for the history books like tea clippers and Steam trains . The alternatives are there, its just many do not want the change.

I envy your ability and know how to work up loads to suit your shooting and I realise I am probably a dinosaur in comparison. I don’t hand load and have little time to spare to start now. I am happy with the performance and versatility of lead shot so that’s what I’ll be sticking with for my rough shooting.
Regarding agenda driven magazine articles it may partly be a result of writers searching for something different to write about though I do remember an article a few years back extolling the virtues of simulated game shooting in preference to game shooting so even that subject has been gone over before. Perhaps the quality of writers now pales when compared to Gough Thomas, Geoffrey Boothroyd, Lea McNally, Colin Willock Arthur Oglesby and Fred Taylor etc and this makes them more susceptible to being influenced by agenda driven topics.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Konor
Addition

[grahamch]

I get the Field as it covers more than shooting, gave up on ST as it was full of doom and gloom.

Took a subscription to Fieldsports - about a tenner per issue but have cancelled that. 

The old farts in the shooting world do however need to realise lead is dead in the medium term and they need to move on or lie the dinosaurs become extinct

[andrewluke]

18 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I humoured you answered your question genuinely. Any further input here, will derail this thread . Start your own thread to make claims like that. This is not the place .

no sense?,you want me to go away because you cant answer my question

Edited May 29, 2020 by andrewluke

[Konor]

6 minutes ago, grahamch said:

I get the Field as it covers more than shooting, gave up on ST as it was full of doom and gloom.

Took a subscription to Fieldsports - about a tenner per issue but have cancelled that. 

The old farts in the shooting world do however need to realise lead is dead in the medium term and they need to move on or lie the dinosaurs become extinct

Shooting is a broad church involving young and old and we should accept the differences rather than try to dictate behaviour. I have no need to realise lead is dead as I will be using it successfully for years to come as I have done for over fifty years. What you opt to do is your business but perhaps you should consider acquiring some manners rather than referring to complete strangers as old farts or is that now the modern way of expressing oneself.

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, Konor said:

Re agenda driven magazine articles it may partly be a result of writers searching for something different to write about though I do remember an article a few years back extolling the virtues of simulated game shooting in preference to game shooting so even that subject has been gone over before. Perhaps the quality of writers now pales when compared to Gough Thomas, Geoffrey Boothroyd, Lea McNally, Colin Willock Arthur Oglesby and Fred Taylor etc and this makes them more susceptible to being influenced by agenda driven topics.

 

many of the old writers were hard acts to follow, and the modern writers will be on modern topics. The steel bias mentioned by the op would never have been a town gun topic. But had it been today. Steel would be getting a mention.

 I am not 100% sure the young as in Teens or 20s do much mag reading any more. it could be in the fullness of time we see a move to online even podcasts etc and input of a broader range of subjects. This sport by its very nature is bland. Its technicalities be it gun fit reloads technique decoys field craft and etiquette are  subjects that have been done to death for years now. We need more inovation from our media. genuine new stuff Chokes are chokes but Those that do more than just your typical choke, need genuine reviews with comparisons some could want to see and draw conclusions from.

Gear reviews interest us all, but Forums are probably better places for input from the real world and the potential of writers patronising certain brands is often at the back of many readers minds when reading reviews.

Forums do not have this, and facebook just does not work its too open and not detailed enough or achievable to retrieve info. You could say good old magazines are instantly retrievable for info if you remembered where it was.

I think shooting is short of Forums worldwide. Facebook and social media killed them, but in truth , they really have not done their day in the need just their popularity. Look at this very forum. in the uk today there is this shooting forum or this shooting forum.

Hunting life stalking directory are ok. but compared to 20 years ago we are very short on forums now.

.

 

20 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

no sense?,you want me to go away because you cant answer my question

Start your own thread me and dozens of others will be along to post on it promise.

[andrewluke]

8 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

many of the old writers were hard acts to follow, and the modern writers will be on modern topics. The steel bias mentioned by the op would never have been a town gun topic. But had it been today. Steel would be getting a mention.

 I am not 100% sure the young as in Teens or 20s do much mag reading any more. it could be in the fullness of time we see a move to online even podcasts etc and input of a broader range of subjects. This sport by its very nature is bland. Its technicalities be it gun fit reloads technique decoys field craft and etiquette are  subjects that have been done to death for years now. We need more inovation from our media. genuine new stuff Chokes are chokes but Those that do more than just your typical choke, need genuine reviews with comparisons some could want to see and draw conclusions from.

Gear reviews interest us all, but Forums are probably better places for input from the real world and the potential of writers patronising certain brands is often at the back of many readers minds when reading reviews.

Forums do not have this, and facebook just does not work its too open and not detailed enough or achievable to retrieve info. You could say good old magazines are instantly retrievable for info if you remembered where it was.

I think shooting is short of Forums worldwide. Facebook and social media killed them, but in truth , they really have not done their day in the need just their popularity. Look at this very forum. in the uk today there is this shooting forum or this shooting forum.

Hunting life stalking directory are ok. but compared to 20 years ago we are very short on forums now.

.

 

Start your own thread me and dozens of others will be along to post on it promise.

oh thank you!,much appreciated,no doubt you would join in,you always do

[Konor]

15 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

many of the old writers were hard acts to follow, and the modern writers will be on modern topics. The steel bias mentioned by the op would never have been a town gun topic. But had it been today. Steel would be getting a mention.

 I am not 100% sure the young as in Teens or 20s do much mag reading any more. it could be in the fullness of time we see a move to online even podcasts etc and input of a broader range of subjects. This sport by its very nature is bland. Its technicalities be it gun fit reloads technique decoys field craft and etiquette are  subjects that have been done to death for years now. We need more inovation from our media. genuine new stuff Chokes are chokes but Those that do more than just your typical choke, need genuine reviews with comparisons some could want to see and draw conclusions from.

Gear reviews interest us all, but Forums are probably better places for input from the real world and the potential of writers patronising certain brands is often at the back of many readers minds when reading reviews.

Forums do not have this, and facebook just does not work its too open and not detailed enough or achievable to retrieve info. You could say good old magazines are instantly retrievable for info if you remembered where it was.

I think shooting is short of Forums worldwide. Facebook and social media killed them, but in truth , they really have not done their day in the need just their popularity. Look at this very forum. in the uk today there is this shooting forum or this shooting forum.

Hunting life stalking directory are ok. but compared to 20 years ago we are very short on forums now.

.

 

I think the writers of the past were very much of their time but confronted with the issues we face today maybe town gun would be writing about opening up the chokes on his old Greener or at least patterning with steel as is and giving his verdict. I can’t imagine how old Gough Thomas would cope with the massive move away from side by sides to over and unders.

I think enthusiasm for the sport is vital and necessary for its survival and I hope the youngsters today are enthusiastic enough to carry the sport forward despite the greater pressures against all live shooting including what may be an agenda driven shooting press.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Konor
Clarification

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, andrewluke said:

oh thank you!,much appreciated,no doubt you would join in,you always do

But i like you. You know that.

[andrewluke]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

Using up what i have in stock, and in this at the same time buying time to develop modern heavier than lead ammunition, that can out perform Lead in every count from a performance angle. Lead is headed for the history books like tea clippers and Steam trains . The alternatives are there, its just many do not want the change.

you've gone from "steel" to "heavier than lead ammunition",why if steel is so good?,stop the waffling and try and respond with a proper answer,i know "heavier than lead ammo" will out perform lead,

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, Konor said:

I think the writers of the past were very much of their time but confronted with the issues we face today maybe town gun would be writing about opening up the chokes on his old Greener or at least patterning with steel as is and giving his verdict. I can’t imagine how old Gough Thomas would cope with the massive move away from side by sides to over and unders.

I think enthusiasm for the sport is vital and necessary for its survival and I think the youngsters today are enthusiastic enough to carry the sport forward despite the greater pressures against all live shooting including what may be an agenda driven shooting press.

One aspect you just touched on is the changes, Move from SxS to O/U.ETC  . Today we live in a much more affluent world. where aspire to a thing rather than go with what is there. More disposable money easy credit relatively easy travel and communications. All make knowledge generally available to all or most. In days as recent as the 1970s. Pre season research for an area for a far off wildfowling trip in a area unknown, was a OS map a mile wheel and sit in the library a hour after work. Take a book out perhaps. By the 2000s you could vertaly drive there on google maps. Search online for other nearby info. You had a much more detailed knowledge of an area in the computer age than previously. Is it better. Probably. But its like watching film on video you used to be glued to the film before videos. it got aired on that day possible just that time. Video you could pick and chose stop pause rewind . But in a strange way the film seemed to lose its importance somehow. And i think films online have eroded this more. i think. Picking up info off back copies of stored magazines, perhaps did not give anywhere as much info. but i think it made us focus more, and we had to be dedicated to gather info back then. And it seemed that bit more special if you like because of this i think.

13 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

you've gone from "steel" to "heavier than lead ammunition",why if steel is so good?,stop the waffling and try and respond with a proper answer,i know "heavier than lead ammo" will out perform lead,

Start your own thread . stop  derailing this one please. .

[andrewluke]

10 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Start your own thread . stop  derailing this one please. .

how is it derailing the thread,i 'm just questioning  something you posted on this thread or is this your way of getting one of the mods onto me again?

yes you have

Edited May 29, 2020 by andrewluke

[Konor]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

One aspect you just touched on is the changes, Move from SxS to O/U.ETC  . Today we live in a much more affluent world. where aspire to a thing rather than go with what is there. More disposable money easy credit relatively easy travel and communications. All make knowledge generally available to all or most. In days as recent as the 1970s. Pre season research for an area for a far off wildfowling trip in a area unknown, was a OS map a mile wheel and sit in the library a hour after work. Take a book out perhaps. By the 2000s you could vertaly drive there on google maps. Search online for other nearby info. You had a much more detailed knowledge of an area in the computer age than previously. Is it better. Probably. But its like watching film on video you used to be glued to the film before videos. it got aired on that day possible just that time. Video you could pick and chose stop pause rewind . But in a strange way the film seemed to lose its importance somehow. And i think films online have eroded this more. i think. Picking up info off back copies of stored magazines, perhaps did not give anywhere as much info. but i think it made us focus more, and we had to be dedicated to gather info back then. And it seemed that bit more special if you like because of this i think.

Start your own thread . stop  derailing this one please. .

I agree with all that and can vividly remember pre internet rummaging through back copies of magazines for articles looking for information. Looking  up the various chapters in books so that I could decide whether for example the move to 25 inch barrels would be wise. Comparing what Gough Thomas had to say compared with Michael McIntosh or any of a dozen or more  chapters in the guide to rough shooting or game shooting books available in your own small library. Now with the increased affluence for some you mention it would probably be a question of just buying a XXV to add to the armoury rather than daydreaming about the possibility The benefits of modern living are vast and a great convenience certainly but I remember fondly my time searching for information whereas now we are inundated with it. The far greater amount of magazines now for example though some seem to be on the decline both in quality and quantity.

 I speak to working class men now who travel abroad to fish regularly in America or Mexico and I enjoy sharing their experiences second hand changed days for them to worming for salmon on small spate rivers or chasing small loch trout.

Perhaps the pace was slower and the expectations not as great in the 1970s but the enjoyment was no less even if the opportunities weren’t as exotic as they are for some now.It’s different times now which can’t help but be reflected in the articles published today.

PS 

“ as recent as the 70s”      that’s like someone relating what it was like in the Second World War to a teenager in the 1990s  they would probably say not so recent 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Konor
Adding PS

[hawkfanz]

10 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Using up what i have in stock, and in this at the same time buying time to develop modern heavier than lead ammunition, that can out perform Lead in every count from a performance angle. Lead is headed for the history books like tea clippers and Steam trains . The alternatives are there, its just many do not want the change.

steam train history books?do you realise how many of these machines are still in use.

 

[Farmboy91]

The creeping up of the prices alone was enough to put me off, nevermind the content.

I pick up a copy of countryman's weekly every now and again but that about it. 

99% of anything I want to know comes of this site. Mainly because I know i will end up with points of view from both ends of the spectrum, not just the ones an editor is being paid for. 

[lancer425]

54 minutes ago, hawkfanz said:

steam train history books?do you realise how many of these machines are still in use.

 

Not many tea clipers bringing home the PG tips these days.

[Rob85]

I still buy the odd shooting publication and enjoy reading them. I found it interesting that one of them pedalled out a Danish shooter to talk about lead vs steel who basically put us all down about wanting to stick with lead. He uses old hammer guns of 1800s vintage with no problem, he also has a "friend" who shoots thousands of steel cartridges a year through his Damascus barrelled gun with no problem. (I find it amusing how it's always a friend who does this). One of the publications i was reading had views printed for and against steel back to back so i thought that was pretty balanced. Also seen an article that talked about the process of making steel shot and an industry insider who described the process as "brutal" in comparison to lead on the environment. Also, one of the articles featured someone ..think it was a gamekeeper...talking about pheasants not being as susceptible to ingesting lead shot even if it's put in front of them as they are fussy about what they will eat. 

These magazines are making a lot of their money on advertising space in them as well as the public sales so it makes sense that certain products that will return revenue for the future will be pushed and this will be including steel shot. Magazines had started to get stale because there were no major industry changes since the hunting act and the steel shot for wildfowling, so now this new potential change has happened they will be jumping on it to get people to test new products and give reviews, I personally don't see it as an agenda.

Let's put the pigeon shooter of old in our shoes then, do we think they would use modern steel shot if it was readily available? I think they would. From reading the late John Humphreys book on shooting pigeons which he took a lot of inspiration from Archie Coates he suggests decoyed pigeons are going to be shot at close range with small shot and open chokes. well within what would be described as standard proof steel shots killing ranges.

As for giving Avery a 2 page spread for his letter, why not? What you end up with is a written statement that can then be refuted by next month's issue and if he back tracks and tries to say something different then you have written evidence to go back to.

[lancer425]

9 hours ago, Konor said:

I agree with all that and can vividly remember pre internet rummaging through back copies of magazines for articles looking for information. Looking  up the various chapters in books so that I could decide whether for example the move to 25 inch barrels would be wise. Comparing what Gough Thomas had to say compared with Michael McIntosh or any of a dozen or more  chapters in the guide to rough shooting or game shooting books available in your own small library. Now with the increased affluence for some you mention it would probably be a question of just buying a XXV to add to the armoury rather than daydreaming about the possibility The benefits of modern living are vast and a great convenience certainly but I remember fondly my time searching for information whereas now we are inundated with it. The far greater amount of magazines now for example though some seem to be on the decline both in quality and quantity.

 I speak to working class men now who travel abroad to fish regularly in America or Mexico and I enjoy sharing their experiences second hand changed days for them to worming for salmon on small spate rivers or chasing small loch trout.

Perhaps the pace was slower and the expectations not as great in the 1970s but the enjoyment was no less even if the opportunities weren’t as exotic as they are for some now.It’s different times now which can’t help but be reflected in the articles published today.

PS 

“ as recent as the 70s”      that’s like someone relating what it was like in the Second World War to a teenager in the 1990s  they would probably say not so recent 

I do apologise having hit 60 i still see the 1970s as a time that was the start for me in the shooting world, it was a very different and yet not unrecognisable time back then. And i suppose i feel its just like yesterday in minds eye  time-scale, if nothing else.

 Many things have changed some for good some for bad. And the shooting press was reporting it to us as it happened. Then as now i feel the shooting media miss the mark somewhat. Probably now more than then in my opinion.

 In fairness to modern day shooting writers modern society is tougher to convince of and individuals validity in the sport integrity if you like. And it takes a very special writer to capture the hard hearts of modern shooters who seen to be infected with what  appears to be an endemic  virulent cynicism  coupled with a secondary infection of stoic short sightedness which makes them virtually incurable.   Put it plainly love and affection for modern shooting writers is a hard thing  thing to cultivate in today’s society.   

[wymberley]

What we read will be governed by various factors and I know not their percentages make up. There's no need to amplify that point as previous posts have highlighted that we're all aware of what those factors are. What is of interest is how successful any agenda is becoming and the truth of what we're being told. There is one simple litmus test which unfortunately owing to the present situation will need to be expressed as a proportion as opposed to pure numbers - which actually on reflection may well be easier to grasp. As part of their market research, etc, etc, the cartridge makers will know precisely the proportions of their cartridge sales in terms of shot material. Obviously, relying on one source for an accurate answer is neither wise nor possibly accurate, but the major sellers will also have this information. It would be very interesting to have accurate figures for this as we move along the 5 year period. This information would tell us exactly what we think of the NTS situation which would then be expressed in terms of our own preferences and any change that we might be making.

[adzyvilla]

I suppose its not just our sport that suffers this problem, most special interest publications will have been taken over by large publishing houses, with sales targets to meet, reduced budgets and more advertising features to fit it to the reduced page count. This has resulted in fairly poor copy being produced, often you will see articles being rehashed and printed in several different places, and the sort of advertorials that I have previously mentioned. 

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer my articles to be written by knowledgeable enthusiasts who know how to tell a story, can inform and encourage debate, but not in a hectoring way. I resent the poorly disguised activism we often see, the commercialism, the articles with subtle conditioning, leading us to think in a specific way about specific things. Just give me the facts, and let me make up my own mind. 

Maybe it's time I left the printed word behind. 

[Salopian]

Getting back on track with the OP's post about the value for money and the interest in todays magazines , we need to realise that many of these magazines come out of the very same source in a London based towering office block . Being London based with the ensuing everyday costs the journalists are very likely to be ex -graduates from a well heeled family who have packed 'junior' off to London to get some work experience rather than being at home screwing up the family business through their ineptitude.

Look back to the glorious days of ST and others when the decent writers like Page , Humphreys, Willock , Taylor etc all lived in rural communities , wrote about life at home and occassionally did an eye watering article about a day in the 'Smoke' receiving an MBE , visiting Purdey , Holland & Holland and having a bollicking off the Editor at HQ.

I am very sorry to say that nowadays I get my reading from internet articles or  forums. 

[London Best]

I remember in the early ‘90’s a chap taking over as editor of an ‘off road’ magazine. Research showed he had come from ‘Morris Minor Monthly’ or some other niche collector’s magazine. Two months later there was an article about him ‘venturing off road for the first time’. 
He was obviously well qualified for his new job. I suspect many of today’s shooting writers are similarly qualified, instant experts.

[Westley]

20 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Using up what i have in stock, and in this at the same time buying time to develop modern heavier than lead ammunition, that can out perform Lead in every count from a performance angle. Lead is headed for the history books like tea clippers and Steam trains . The alternatives are there, its just many do not want the change.

Along with most decent Shooting Magazine writers   !

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, Westley said:

Along with most decent Shooting Magazine writers   !

Sad but true.