Environment Bill - lead shot ban from 1st January 2023

[Guest cookoff013]

Just now, udderlyoffroad said:

The raw material might be cheaper, but converting it into small balls uses many times more energy than lead and therefore costs much more.

Yup and the upgrade in machines to handle loading steel.

Wouldnt suprise if steel shot was imported from china

[rbrowning2]

27 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Bio wads are on the way and will be in all gauges. We have on order 20gauge Steel with bio wads. Most cartridge components come from Italy and they must be trying out new wads. When gamebore/Kent made ITM cartridges they passed the cold weather test in the USA . Gamebore are ahead with their wildfowling cartridges. The manufacturers in Europe produced all the components for their bio cartridges in lead and steel. Different gauges won’t be a problem for them. A lot of small gauge shot guns are used on the Continent and in USA. We have used steel and heavy types of shot in .410 to 10gauge so I’m sure large companies can mass produce them. The question maybe is it lead and plastic that’s bad for the environment or the people using them.

You are very optimistic and time will tell, but remember this biodegradable wad thing Suitable for steel shot is currently only a U.K. initiative, a small market, so unless the rest of the EU or world follow and their is a realistic chance of making serious money I would not hold your breath that you will see biodegradable wads, in any gauges other than 12ga and 20ga for a very long time, if ever.
Even gamebore on their media video announcing their 12ga environmental wads said the tooling cost and investment only justify 12ga.

 

[Terry2016]

18 hours ago, clangerman said:

if you think claiming it’s a case of blame or moaning when it’s a FACT basc called for the lead ban good luck to you 

You seem to have your facts wrong, BASC and 8 other organisations requested a transition away from lead and single use plastic wads for all live quarry shooting. 

This page is about a ban.  

BASC opposed the ban as the purpose of the transition was to avoid legislation and to give manufacturers the chance to get suitable ammunition to the market. 

In the last few month we have moved forwards leaps and bounds and now there are a few manufacturers making steel shot biodegradable wads. 

This will help promote game as food, stop wildlife ingestion it and dying as documented by the GWCT.

If nothing else we as shooters will be regarded higher by non shooting communities for the move. 

A ban will cover all shooting, Clay grounds also. 

This is not what was asked for by the organisations and why BASC oppose it.

As for steel doesn't kill that is pure rubbish.

As for its not as good as lead.. well it doesn't have to be -  dead is dead

if you are getting winged birds it is down to your shooting not your cartridge. 

Practice more.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Terry2016

[clangerman]

4 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

You seem to have your facts wrong, BASC and 8 other organisations requested a transition away from lead and single use plastic wads for all live quarry shooting. 

This page is about a ban.  

BASC oppose the ban as the purpose of the transition was to avoid legislation and to give manufacturers the chance to get suitable ammunition to the market. 

In the last few month we have moved forwards leaps and bounds and now there are a few manufacturers making steel shot biodegradable wads. 

This will help promote game as food, stop wildlife ingestion it and dying as documented by the GWCT.

If nothing else we as shooter will be regarded higher by non shooting communities for the move. 

A ban will cover all shooting, playgrounds also. 

This is not what was asked for by the organisations and why BASC oppose it.

As for steel doesn't kill that is pure rubbish. as for its not as good as lead.. well it doesn't have to be dead is dead if you are getting winged birds it is down to your shooting not your cartridge. 

Practice more.

 

 

same old excuses same old denials no wonder game shooting is going to end up banned sad day when not one man has the guts to admit losing our best tool was the doing of basc 

[Gas seal]

Rbrownings2 Hi bio wads is international. The USA have bio cartridge manufacturers. In Europe a cartridge manufacturer has built a large new factory to make bio cartridges. The.410 cartridges are the hardest to produce for all of the companies but they still make them. The 16gauge and 28gauge are more popular in Europe and USA. If a business man builds a new factory to make bio cartridges he isn’t going to limit it to 12gauge he will make all gauges .Single use plastic is a worldwide problem not just in the U.K. it won’t be long before plastic wads and cases are prohibited. About  15 years ago Ian Charlton gave me data for a steel shot load with available components in 28gauge. I am still using it. I gave my 12gauge and 10gauge to friend 20 years ago because I couldn’t fire them. I bought a 28gauge loaded cartridges for it and kept shooting. Wildflowers have used non lead cartridges for 20 years. Fishermen don’t use lead nor do US wildflowers. I don’t know any other shooters who have used steel in small gauge for years. Cartridges are going to change we should try them wildflowers did and they are still wildfowling. 

[Smokersmith]

I’m sure when they decided to stop drowning witches there were folks who were in uproar.

[Old farrier]

12 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

I’m sure when they decided to stop drowning witches there were folks who were in uproar.

It was never the same burning them at all he stake 🤭😂😂

[Scully]

27 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Rbrownings2 Hi bio wads is international. The USA have bio cartridge manufacturers. In Europe a cartridge manufacturer has built a large new factory to make bio cartridges. The.410 cartridges are the hardest to produce for all of the companies but they still make them. The 16gauge and 28gauge are more popular in Europe and USA. If a business man builds a new factory to make bio cartridges he isn’t going to limit it to 12gauge he will make all gauges .Single use plastic is a worldwide problem not just in the U.K. it won’t be long before plastic wads and cases are prohibited. About  15 years ago Ian Charlton gave me data for a steel shot load with available components in 28gauge. I am still using it. I gave my 12gauge and 10gauge to friend 20 years ago because I couldn’t fire them. I bought a 28gauge loaded cartridges for it and kept shooting. Wildflowers have used non lead cartridges for 20 years. Fishermen don’t use lead nor do US wildflowers. I don’t know any other shooters who have used steel in small gauge for years. Cartridges are going to change we should try them wildflowers did and they are still wildfowling. 

None toxic shot cartridges on a commercial basis need to be affordable, not everyone wants to reload, and game and especially trap shooters get through many more cartridges a year than wildfowlers. 

[PeterHenry]

I've recently changed my mind about this - yes its irritating to be looking at potentially loosing lead - but for what it's worth, I was shooting the other day and the 32g no4 Layvale Hunting Steel cartridges I was using in a Browning over and under worked just fine - I had six ducks, all dead before they hit the ground.

In an ideal world, i'd rather not give up lead, because I have a number of old English and Scottish side by sides which I love dearly, and when 2 1/2 inch steel comes to our shelves I dont imagine it's going to be particularly good for my right shoulder, or the guns to put it through them.

However, if the choice is between packing up shooting, or using a modern over and under with steel shot, then I'm going to quite happily solder on with the latter option.

Pick lower, albeit still sporting birds, and get on and enjoy yourself - theres absolutely no reason not to. At the end of the day, it's better to be seen as a sport to self regulate than have legislation bought down on us. Which, as this amendment is unlikely to pass, is unlikely to happen soon - unless the EU jump in, at which point there is ****** all that can be done about it. The silver lineing in that situation of course being that it may serve to turbocharge research and development with the continental manufacturers.

Edited October 15, 2020 by PeterHenry

[greylag]

46 minutes ago, clangerman said:

same old excuses same old denials no wonder game shooting is going to end up banned sad day when not one man has the guts to admit losing our best tool was the doing of basc 

Think positive man.We will be using steel or other non toxic shot in the future,and with the right attitude shooting will continue for many years.Look forward and think positive.It doesn't matter how many times you are told by a variety of people you are determined to condemn our way of life to history.

[clangerman]

1 minute ago, greylag said:

Think positive man.We will be using steel or other non toxic shot in the future,and with the right attitude shooting will continue for many years.Look forward and think positive.It doesn't matter how many times you are told by a variety of people you are determined to condemn our way of life to history.

i don’t mind any amount of advice just not bs claims steel is just as good or denials basc called for a ban or as it’s now apparently called a (transition lol) pigeon shooting will always survive it won’t be my funeral 

[greylag]

Nobody is denying that BASC was part of the consortium of organisations that has called for a transition away from lead,and to be fair we should all have seen it coming.Non toxic in any form has to be the way forward,you are never going to be shooting the extreme targets you see on some videos,but should we want to?,if you want extreme target shooting ,go clay shooting.There is no live game shooting I take part in that I would be quite happy to  use steel or some form of non toxic shot.

[bluesj]

From my point of view this is being gone at from the wrong end lead is natural plastic isn't, sort the plastic out first then the lead,

That said I think I'll be ordering a few slabs of sg lead for work as i don't fancy 8 and a half mm steel balls chasing me around if things don't go to plan!

[Perazzishot]

You all need to look at the long game.

We phase out lead on a voluntary basis to steel. 

Steel is actually more dangerous than lead. Why because it rusts, it oxidises the rusting process causes bacteria Clostridium tetani (tetanus) Supermarkets go to great lengths to prevent any form of metal getting into their products. Why are they going to stock steel shot birds. You also have the MRI risk from eating anything shot with steel shot!

Basically as quick as we lose lead, steel will be right behind it. The outcome you suddenly have the vast percentage of all shooters unable to afford to go shooting.

This is a stealth way to take away the rights of thousands to go shooting without banning it!

[WalkedUp]

I strongly believe we have bigger issues than lead vs steel. Recreational shooting of live quarry as we know it faces an existential crisis. If Labour get in then a ban of driven grouse, ban of releasing pheasants, revocation of the General Licenses etc is on the cards and we are done for. We to all be a PR campaign persuading the general public that shooting of wild game for the pot is modern, sustainable and ethical. 

[ShootingEgg]

3 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I strongly believe we have bigger issues than lead vs steel. Recreational shooting of live quarry as we know it faces an existential crisis. If Labour get in then a ban of driven grouse, ban of releasing pheasants, revocation of the General Licenses etc is on the cards and we are done for. We to all be a PR campaign persuading the general public that shooting of wild game for the pot is modern, sustainable and ethical. 

Yep couldn't agree more 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[PeterHenry]

3 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

Yep couldn't agree more 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Me too 👍

[Gas seal]

Hi Scully l reload steel cartridges because l couldn’t buy 28gauge Steel cartridges. I only shoot steel . If l could buy steel in 28gauge l would. 20gauge bio cartridges are available 28gauge should be next. Cartridges will change sooner or later. We may have to use non lead when we see the new general licence in a few weeks. I’ve never seen so many issues in such a short time.

[BrowningB7]

It's been covered on other threads. BASC + £100k investigate in game processing + A new game meat org. backed by an MP + contract waiting with meat firm supplying Waitrose = Lead ban 

[rbrowning2]

12 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Rbrownings2 Hi bio wads is international. The USA have bio cartridge manufacturers. In Europe a cartridge manufacturer has built a large new factory to make bio cartridges. The.410 cartridges are the hardest to produce for all of the companies but they still make them. The 16gauge and 28gauge are more popular in Europe and USA. If a business man builds a new factory to make bio cartridges he isn’t going to limit it to 12gauge he will make all gauges .Single use plastic is a worldwide problem not just in the U.K. it won’t be long before plastic wads and cases are prohibited. About  15 years ago Ian Charlton gave me data for a steel shot load with available components in 28gauge. I am still using it. I gave my 12gauge and 10gauge to friend 20 years ago because I couldn’t fire them. I bought a 28gauge loaded cartridges for it and kept shooting. Wildflowers have used non lead cartridges for 20 years. Fishermen don’t use lead nor do US wildflowers. I don’t know any other shooters who have used steel in small gauge for years. Cartridges are going to change we should try them wildflowers did and they are still wildfowling. 

Gas seal, I have not posted I am against steel shot, just the biodegradable wads make the change and even bigger problem, the new company you mention in Europe, their product takes months 18? to degrade, my farmers and landowners will not accept that and that is their choice. The wads eley are using are almost too good breaking down in hours, require the plastic case petals to be melted together otherwise a significant risk that they will degrade in the cartridge. Please show me links to the American steel cartridges in all gauges using biodegradable wads, would like to see them. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by rbrowning2

[Scully]

9 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Scully l reload steel cartridges because l couldn’t buy 28gauge Steel cartridges. I only shoot steel . If l could buy steel in 28gauge l would. 20gauge bio cartridges are available 28gauge should be next. Cartridges will change sooner or later. We may have to use non lead when we see the new general licence in a few weeks. I’ve never seen so many issues in such a short time.

Cartridges will have to change if people want to reload. 
I know the spec’ was ‘single use plastic’ but it’s still plastic. I don’t know how many times you can reload a plastic cartridge but it won’t be indefinitely. 
I seem to recall a ‘no change’ declaration from BASC until an effective and affordable alternative to lead was found. Affordable by who’s standards? We’ll see. 

[Guest cookoff013]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Cartridges will have to change if people want to reload. 
I know the spec’ was ‘single use plastic’ but it’s still plastic. I don’t know how many times you can reload a plastic cartridge but it won’t be indefinitely. 
I seem to recall a ‘no change’ declaration from BASC until an effective and affordable alternative to lead was found. Affordable by who’s standards? We’ll see. 

basc money.
doesnt everyone earn millions?

 

The thing that really gets me, is we in the uk have a huge heritage of shooting, and we cant come up with a piece of dense cardboard as a wad. that is mass produced. you can send something to china and it`d get made. shipping it over would be a bit expensive.

plastic reloads better than fibre wads on any machine and day of the week. reduced output by manufacturers will cost the punter money.  its a sandwich everyone needs to eat. when the price of lead skyrocketed, steel shells increased in price, alot. they blamed it on the cost of lead. (there is no lead in steel cartridges).
manufacturers will spin lies to take your money.

its a shame european loaders (especially italian) havent got a bigger foothold. ot they would have invested and developed decades ago.

[Smokersmith]

If this situation is 'as billed' ... then it's a move the EU will be making anyway, so hopefully the Cheddites and Fiocchi's of the world will be along shortly ....

[rbrowning2]

26 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

If this situation is 'as billed' ... then it's a move the EU will be making anyway, so hopefully the Cheddites and Fiocchi's of the world will be along shortly ....

I spoke with John at FES on Monday, he had been in touch with both Gualandi and Fiocchi both have nothing in the pipeline for biodegradable plastic wads, and he told me Fiocchi has this month acquired B&P and invested $15 million in a new plant in the USA. Biodegradable wads are a U.K. thing, the market is tiny the European manufacture could turn their back on us, we are no longer part of the EU. The biodegradable cartridges/wads that are out their are a niche bespoke thing not being made in really industrial quantities, and may not be available to us to reload.
the move away from lead outside the U.K. to steel does not need biodegradable wads to be used.

https://www.fiocchi.com/en/news-events/fiocchi-to-establish-a-new-industrial-platform-to-further-boost-growth-in-the-united-states
 

https://www.fiocchi.com/en/news-events/fiocchi-announces-the-acquisition-of-baschieri-pellagri

Edited October 16, 2020 by rbrowning2

[Smokersmith]

Update apprecaited.

I would expect this to change though, as the pressure on plastic waste mounts globally, the random littering of plastic wads is likely to become unsustainable.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Smokersmith