Threats from Hancock

[Walker570]

Apart from Hancock stating that the lockdown will continue after the 2nd of December although Boris gave a solemn pledge that it would not and then stating that he would make it mandatory that every 'citizen' ... did you read 1984 .....  would be vacinated even against their will, makes me worry about where this country is going.  Everyone I have spoken with this morning is furious at the performance of the Government and all said they would not comply with either of the aforementioned proposals.

[Benthejockey]

I said to Mrs BTJ at the beginning of this lockdown it would extend beyond the 2nd, I said once they announced they were sending students home early theyd be kicking the kids out from school early and I said I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to make the vaccine mandatory. I'm not surprised.

[Smokersmith]

I've not seen any evidence that either is true yet, but there could be good reason for both initaitives.

Having a duty of care for others makes you look at things in a different light to just looking out for yourself.

 

[Scully]

39 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Apart from Hancock stating that the lockdown will continue after the 2nd of December although Boris gave a solemn pledge that it would not and then stating that he would make it mandatory that every 'citizen' ... did you read 1984 .....  would be vacinated even against their will, makes me worry about where this country is going.  Everyone I have spoken with this morning is furious at the performance of the Government and all said they would not comply with either of the aforementioned proposals.

Keeping the shops, restaurants and pubs shut in the run up to Christmas? Political suicide in my opinion, I really can’t see it happening.

All I’ve heard about on the news is a rejigging of the ‘tier’ system ‘when we come out of lockdown on the second’. 
As for compulsory injections, I suppose they could, but again, I think there would be a huge backlash. We’ll know soon enough anyhow, on all fronts. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Scully

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

I've not seen any evidence that either is true yet,

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-top-tory-alok-sharma-23001000 It definitely will !

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-lockdown-matt-hancock-boris-johnson-b1723605.html It might not !

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/lockdown-end-december-tiers-review-robert-jenrick-b72154.html It will, but it wont  

22 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Having a duty of care for others makes you look at things in a different light to just looking out for yourself.

The government also has a duty of care , and seeing as they wont trust us to use common sense, they are forcing upon us, measures that are not only mentally and emotionally cruel, but economically destructive.
Not one member of government or SAGE will suffer financially over the covid response, their jobs ,salaries and pensions are well protected from the fallout.
Perhaps they should think about it in 'a different light' ?

When alls said and done, we are going to have a hard time getting back to normal, but it is achievable, with Xmas being a large part of that ,   I fully reject this notion that 'things will never be the same again' this line of thinking is designed to scare people into doing as they are told.
Its the tactics of the bully, and even the staunchest supporter of measure are absolutely sick of being spoken to like a child.

Stories and videos of huge numbers of police officers being sent to forcibly close businesses , while homes are being burgled, people robbed and raped ?
People eyeing up non mask wearers with suspicion and anger, neighbours reporting each other because they suspect someone has come round their house who shouldnt ?
What kind of country are we becoming ?

Where are projections that put us into lockdowns 1 and 2 ?
How were they reached ?
Why is this information not available for peer review ?  (Did they literally just think of a number ?)
Even the respected  Worldometer site has (quietly)  revised its projections RIGHT DOWN to make this winters 'covid' deaths far lower than Springs. (Its original graph had it at between twice and 4x as bad, with an average of 4000 deaths a day by Xmas)
Its about time the UK and many other governments put their hands up , and recognised that, rightly or wrongly , they may have over estimated the impact of covid.

The trouble is , no one has the balls to admit they got it wrong and wrecked the economy.

 

[Yellow Bear]

10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-top-tory-alok-sharma-23001000 It definitely will !

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-lockdown-matt-hancock-boris-johnson-b1723605.html It might not !

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/lockdown-end-december-tiers-review-robert-jenrick-b72154.html It will, but it wont  

The government also has a duty of care , and seeing as they wont trust us to use common sense, they are forcing upon us, measures that are not only mentally and emotionally cruel, but economically destructive.
Not one member of government or SAGE will suffer financially over the covid response, their jobs ,salaries and pensions are well protected from the fallout.
Perhaps they should think about it in 'a different light' ?

When alls said and done, we are going to have a hard time getting back to normal, but it is achievable, with Xmas being a large part of that ,   I fully reject this notion that 'things will never be the same again' this line of thinking is designed to scare people into doing as they are told.
Its the tactics of the bully, and even the staunchest supporter of measure are absolutely sick of being spoken to like a child.

Stories and videos of huge numbers of police officers being sent to forcibly close businesses , while homes are being burgled, people robbed and raped ?
People eyeing up non mask wearers with suspicion and anger, neighbours reporting each other because they suspect someone has come round their house who shouldnt ?
What kind of country are we becoming ?

Where are projections that put us into lockdowns 1 and 2 ?
How were they reached ?
Why is this information not available for peer review ?  (Did they literally just think of a number ?)
Even the respected  Worldometer site has (quietly)  revised its projections RIGHT DOWN to make this winters 'covid' deaths far lower than Springs. (Its original graph had it at between twice and 4x as bad, with an average of 4000 deaths a day by Xmas)
Its about time the UK and many other governments put their hands up , and recognised that, rightly or wrongly , they may have over estimated the impact of covid.

The trouble is , no one has the balls to admit they got it wrong and wrecked the economy.

 

Whilst I generally agree with a lot of this posting in my opinion and quoting "and seeing as they wont trust us to use common sense" the happenings at bank holidays in lockdown 1  and the behaviour of some sections of the populace since mid September proves some cannot be trusted to even think about common sense.

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

Whilst I generally agree with a lot of this posting in my opinion and quoting "and seeing as they wont trust us to use common sense" the happenings at bank holidays in lockdown 1  and the behaviour of some sections of the populace since mid September proves some cannot be trusted to even think about common sense.

Then resources should have been put in place to stop them.
Stick £500 parking fines at seaside resorts to deter non residents from travelling there.

Lockdowns are  a blunt instrument that hurts everyone , some permanently .
A more focussed approach would have been far more sensible.

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

then stating that he would make it mandatory that every 'citizen'

The report in the Telegraph says "The Health Secretary said the Government was not "proposing" a legal requirement for people to be vaccinated because some would be unable to have a jab due to medical reasons - but he added he has "learnt not to rule things out"."........ which is not the same thing at all.  They obviously want as many as possible to have it because that is the sensible way of getting back (as nearly as possible anyway) to 'normality'.

Additionally - on ITV web pages "While Downing Street has insisted there were no plans to make vaccination mandatory, the prime minister's official spokesperson also declined to rule out compulsion."

Again - every indication that it will not be mandatory.

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Apart from Hancock stating that the lockdown will continue after the 2nd of December

That is not up to Hancock - it would have to be Parliament.  The interview (I think it was Hancock) I listened to this morning said that the lockdown had (legally) to end of 2nd December - unless Parliament votes to renew it - or extend it - because the bill that implemented it was time limited.  When questioned further - the interviewee said that whether they would go to Parliament asking for more was totally dependant on the infections, hospitalisation and deaths figures - and they would be looked at before making any decision nearer the time.

22 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

the behaviour of some sections of the populace since mid September proves some cannot be trusted to even think about common sense.

/\  This is the key point - if people will not behave sensibly - then rules of some sort may be implemented - and rightly so.

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

/\  This is the key point - if people will not behave sensibly - then rules of some sort may be implemented - and rightly so.

The key point is , the rules affect everyone , even those that were sensible.
Lockdowns are like a punishment, for the transgressions of the few.

Bear in mind some countries locked down before they had a single case, (India) what is the logic behind that with no vaccine available ?
Either way , no lockdown anywhere really worked, Spain , France and Italy , with very hard measures , are now catching us up in the death stakes, with a par on per capita deaths, and more infections.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Either way , no lockdown anywhere really worked

That could be looked at differently - our first lockdown certainly coincided with numbers coming back down - and the timing fitted for the lockdown being the mains this was achieved.  It took it's time - and was no doubt helped by the weather - but I am 100% certain the much reduced person to person contact was the main driver - because we know that this virus largely transmits direct person to person through breath and touch.  Separation and lockdowns enforce that.  Transmission by other means (surfaces, food, posts and parcels) has been shown as possible - but appears not to be a major transmission path in real life.

IF people 'socially distanced' properly without lockdowns - then transmission would be much lower and lockdown might not be needed ........ but experience shows they don't.

[Yellow Bear]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Then resources should have been put in place to stop them.
Stick £500 parking fines at seaside resorts to deter non residents from travelling there.

Lockdowns are  a blunt instrument that hurts everyone , some permanently .
A more focussed approach would have been far more sensible.

Unfortunately even £10k fines did not seem to stop the partying in your neck of the woods (along with Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Cardiff and Birmingham) in October I seem to remember.  All that it got was howls from the MSM. about it being unfair.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

IF people 'socially distanced' properly without lockdowns - then transmission would be much lower and lockdown might not be needed ........ but experience shows they don't.

I think nearly everyone is far more clued up on social distancing , and hygiene than they were, if anything good comes out of this, its that.
Think how peoples heads spin round when someone coughs into their mask in a supermarket now ?
The paranoia back in March has been replaced by a sort of considered caution.

As far as the numbers dropping over summer , covid infections and deaths virtually flatlined for 3 months in many countries, and many people thought we had seen the back of the worst.
But predictions even back then were dire for the winter months, did the science 'know' something we didnt ?
If this sort of information was available , then WHY 'Eat out to help out' ?
Why send the schools and universities back end of August ?
Why scramble for universal mask wearing after the horse had bolted ?

As I said earlier , how were the projections arrived out, would the strategy hold up to scrutiny ?

5 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

Unfortunately even £10k fines did not seem to stop the partying in your neck of the woods (along with Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Cardiff and Birmingham) in October I seem to remember.  All that it got was howls from the MSM. about it being unfair.

Agreed , but I think many of them didnt believe it would be enforced.
Maybe issuing fixed penalties isnt the answer anyway , as they could easily take them to court and means test them.

But surely the threat would deter the majority, otherwise theres no point in doing it.

[VicW]

Compulsory vaccination enforcement would be very difficult to action and smacks of a police state as it would involve,as a last resort, arrest, physical immobilisation and contact by, presumably, the police. The medical person giving the injection would be involuntarily involved and would,  I suggest, refuse to take part. This could be followed by claims against the government for assault.

Vic.

[Lloyd90]

I don't think there will be compulsory vaccination, however, I do think private businesses etc should be allowed to turn away anti-vaxers. 

 

 

[Rewulf]

21 minutes ago, VicW said:

Compulsory vaccination enforcement would be very difficult to action and smacks of a police state as it would involve,as a last resort, arrest, physical immobilisation and contact by, presumably, the police. The medical person giving the injection would be involuntarily involved and would,  I suggest, refuse to take part. This could be followed by claims against the government for assault.

Vic.

 

10 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

I don't think there will be compulsory vaccination, however, I do think private businesses etc should be allowed to turn away anti-vaxers. 

 

 

And this is where they dont need to 'force' you.

Just make parts of normal life impossible without your covid 'pass'
Want to go abroad ? Covid pass required .
Want an operation ? You guessed it ....
Need a job or new bank account , 'sorry Sir/Madam , non compliance doesnt grant you those privileges'
Does this sound reasonable to you ?

Allow this to come to pass, and youve opened up to big government, options to 'force' you to do pretty much anything, combine that with a cashless society ( that can  mean your finances can be switched off if you mis behave) and you have all the makings of the worst dystopian novel you can imagine.

Just keep repeating to yourselves 'Its for my own good' 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Rewulf

[clangerman]

any thoughts of compulsory vaccination will start riots that make the last ones look like a picnic 

[Lloyd90]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

And this is where they dont need to 'force' you.

Just make parts of normal life impossible without your covid 'pass'
Want to go abroad ? Covid pass required .
Want an operation ? You guessed it ....
Need a job or new bank account , 'sorry Sir/Madam , non compliance doesnt grant you those privileges'
Does this sound reasonable to you ?

Allow this to come to pass, and youve opened up to big government, options to 'force' you to do pretty much anything, combine that with a cashless society ( that can  mean your finances can be switched off if you mis behave) and you have all the makings of the worst dystopian novel you can imagine.

Just keep repeating to yourselves 'Its for my own good' 

 

 

If someone doesn't want to get the vaccination that is fine. But if I have asthma, a compromised immune system or some other issue, I don't want to hang out with those anti-vaxers. 

 

I don't believe in Government over-reach. I am a big supporter of civil rights. If they don't want the vaccine then that is fine. I reserve the right not to hang out with the people who don't want it. 

 

I'm not going to force my choice on them, but they might have to play ball if they want to have all the benefits of society without any of the responsibility that goes with it. 

Besides your argument could also slot in for people who "don't believe in Government ID's" (Like a passport or driving licence). If you don't want a passport or driving licence then fine, don't have one, but don't complain when you can't go abroad or drive a car...  

 

We all have to play by certain rules. 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, clangerman said:

any thoughts of compulsory vaccination will start riots that make the last ones look like a picnic 

I doubt that very much.
Create enough fear, and they will be begging to be vaccinated with anything they believe will save them.

If covid doesnt suffice , then the next bat virus will have to be a bit stronger 

2 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

I'm not going to force my choice on them, but they might have to play ball if they want to have all the benefits of society without any of the responsibility that goes with it. 

Besides your argument could also slot in for people who "don't believe in Government ID's" (Like a passport or driving licence). If you don't want a passport or driving licence then fine, don't have one, but don't complain when you can't go abroad or drive a car...  

You might not force the choice on them, but that doesnt mean it wont be forced.

Theres more than one way to achieve the aim of compulsory mass vaccination.

Strangely enough , I support ID cards ect, it would solve many a problem, but making a population do something invasive by denying them basic rights, is the stuff of nightmares.

[Lloyd90]

7 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I doubt that very much.
Create enough fear, and they will be begging to be vaccinated with anything they believe will save them.

If covid doesnt suffice , then the next bat virus will have to be a bit stronger 

You might not force the choice on them, but that doesnt mean it wont be forced.

Theres more than one way to achieve the aim of compulsory mass vaccination.

Strangely enough , I support ID cards ect, it would solve many a problem, but making a population do something invasive by denying them basic rights, is the stuff of nightmares.

 

Do you not think Covid is that bad? 

Are you an anti-vaxer Rewulf?  

[clangerman]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I doubt that very much.
Create enough fear, and they will be begging to be vaccinated with anything they believe will save them.

If covid doesnt suffice , then the next bat virus will have to be a bit stronger 

and how are you going to scare lunatics who will stab you just for looking at them wrong only way you can park outside the kebab shop is the fights clear a space 

[Vince Green]

There is a nurse in South Dakota who has said patients are coming into her hospital with severe symptoms yet when told they have Covid they are refusing to accept the diagnosis because "there is no such thing" its "fake news" etc. Not just one or two either, lots of them.

Final proof Darwin was right!

[Rewulf]

Just now, Lloyd90 said:

 

Do you not think Covid is that bad? Not bad enough for the measures and impact we have inflicted upon ourselves.

Are you an anti-vaxer Rewulf?  No , but I believe in making it a choice, there is far to much pressure placed on the possible vaccine and its possible implementation.

 

1 minute ago, Vince Green said:

There is a nurse in South Dakota who has said patients are coming into her hospital with severe symptoms yet when told they have Covid they are refusing to accept the diagnosis because "there is no such thing" its "fake news" etc. Not just one or two either, lots of them.

Final proof Darwin was right!

Do you have a link for that ?

2 minutes ago, clangerman said:

and how are you going to scare lunatics who will stab you just for looking at them wrong only way you can park outside the kebab shop is the fights clear a space 

You live in a very rough area, come to Nottingham its very pleasant 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Compulsory vaccination enforcement would be very difficult to action 

Vic - got to agree. A few problems:-

As we don't know who is in the country, how will we ensure it takes place?

If we have a Covid certificate, someone will forge them.

If we have a central database for Customs, hospitals etc to check against, I will resurrect my Flying Pig Squadron. The Country hasn't got a fool-proof computer system and all those introduced in the last twenty years have been staggering failures.

 

[Yellow Bear]

16 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I support ID cards ect, it would solve many a problem, but making a population do something invasive by denying them basic rights, is the stuff of nightmares

I totally agree with your first point, however, as a "vulnerable" person are not the anti vaxxers (and currently the anti social distancers) denying me a "basic right" by putting me at risk if I wish to live a close to normal life?

Edited November 17, 2020 by Yellow Bear

[Vince Green]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

Do you have a link for that ?

 

Just google South Dakota Nurse, its all over the internet