Electric car running costs

[Raja Clavata]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

4) Electric cars require massive amounts of oil and minerals in their manufacture

5) Despite the fact we have 9 years to go, the manufacturers really haven't produced products that meets the needs of the average PW user.  There's a good reason for this.  Drag increases with the square of speed (think the size of the engine in a Bugatti Veyron compared to an Audi repmobile, that extra 100 mph requires massive amounts of power).  So towing trailers drops the range off a cliff.  This is why the promised pick ups and actual trucks have yet to appear.  They just will not get the claimed range in real world use.

 

All that said

Is total nonsense.  You leave your house in the morning - remember the 'tank is full' because you've charged it overnight at home.  So say 300miles, immediately.  Gets you pretty far, no?

 

 

Fixed it for you

 

Because you can't cheat physics.  

Hydrogen is the energy storage medium, not the energy source.

Building tanks to even store the stuff is challenging because hydrogen gas atoms are so small, it will leak out, which makes ICE running them hard going.

Hyrdogen fuel celled cars can be built now, but fundamentally all they are is a different type of battery for an EV.  One which is miles less practical than a 'conventional' battery.

 

I agree with all that. I think the longer term challenge for hydrogen will be in the cost of infrastructure, already an issue for EVs but less so compared to hydrogen.

It seems somewhat inconceivable today but is it too far fetched to imagine something like a micro modular reactor as a power source in the distant future?

[udderlyoffroad]

42 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I agree with all that. I think the longer term challenge for hydrogen will be in the cost of infrastructure, already an issue for EVs but less so compared to hydrogen.

As I'm currently working in the fuel infrastructure side of the business, I'd welcome the opportunity to implement hydrogen, there'd be work for years....

But I can't see it happening.  It's just not appealing compared to beefing up the electricity supply to already existing fuel stations.

Of course, if your fuel station happens to be in the Arizona desert, you could  very easily generate hydrogen on site using photovoltaics, not so much if you're on the outskirts of Luton.

[Old farrier]

How much is the range of EV reduced if you have the lights heater radio satnav and phone charger on ? 

[islandgun]

Surely very efficient hybrids are the way forward, charge as you go

[AVB]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

How much is the range of EV reduced if you have the lights heater radio satnav and phone charger on ? 

You don’t even notice it. Do you notice a difference in MPG in a normal car?  LED lights and heat pumps are very efficient. The biggest difference is the rain due to the extra energy needed to disperse the water. It’s the same on a petrol/diesel car but people don’t notice that. In the same way that a normal car is less efficient when cold it’s also the same for batteries BUT you can schedule the car to warm them up ready for when you leave. If I am going to be leaving at 06:00 tomorrow morning I will tell the car that (or it can also synch with the calendar on my phone and work it out for itself) and it will schedule the charge, warm the battery up and put the heating on to defrost it so I get in to a warm and toasty car all ready to go. 

[Old farrier]

26 minutes ago, AVB said:

You don’t even notice it. Do you notice a difference in MPG in a normal car?  LED lights and heat pumps are very efficient. The biggest difference is the rain due to the extra energy needed to disperse the water. It’s the same on a petrol/diesel car but people don’t notice that. In the same way that a normal car is less efficient when cold it’s also the same for batteries BUT you can schedule the car to warm them up ready for when you leave. If I am going to be leaving at 06:00 tomorrow morning I will tell the car that (or it can also synch with the calendar on my phone and work it out for itself) and it will schedule the charge, warm the battery up and put the heating on to defrost it so I get in to a warm and toasty car all ready to go. 

But how many miles? 
my diesel fuel tank will take me 700 + miles on a fill on a bad day I maybe use a bit more still leaves plenty of reserve on a 500 mile run 

it seems more critical to know these things on a EV with a shorter range 

[AVB]

23 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

But how many miles? 
my diesel fuel tank will take me 700 + miles on a fill on a bad day I maybe use a bit more still leaves plenty of reserve on a 500 mile run 

it seems more critical to know these things on a EV with a shorter range 

I genuinely have no real idea with any degree of accuracy. I don’t spend all my time looking at the range I let the car work those things out.  I would guess that a combination of headwind and rain would decrease range by 10%. 

[al4x]

On 18/11/2020 at 16:35, AVB said:

My Tesla is just over three years old and thought it appropriate to calculate what it has cost to run in that time. When I got it I was also considering a Range Rover so I have made an estimate of what that would have cost to run over the same period. At the time they were a similar price to purchase. The amount of electricity used is accurate as the car tells me that I have used 12,885 KWh and covered 30,885 miles. Most of that has been on relatively short runs. For a comparison I have estimated that the RR would have got 28mpg. For the cost of electricity I used 12p per kWh which seems to be a good average over the past three years looking at my bills. For Diesel I used £1.18 per litre.  The car electric costs are overstated as I get free vend from the Tesla Superchargers which I have used on long runs, but for ease of comparison I have ignored this. Adding in the cost of Vehicle Excise Duty, servicing, tyres etc. the Tesla comes in at £3,756 and the Range Rover at £12,182, a saving of £8,426 over three years two months.  

 

I appreciate that things will change as various schemes are implemented to recoup the cost that the Government are losing but it gives a snapshot at this point in time.  

 

		Tesla	Range Rover
VED Year 1		£220.00	£2,175.00
VED Year 2		£220.00	£475.00
VED Year 3		£220.00	£475.00
VED Year 4		£-	£475.00
Elec/Fuel
12886	0.12	£1,546.32		12,885KWh @12p per KWh
30885	1.18		£6,507.91	28 mpg @£1.18 per litre
Servicing		£400.00	£1,235.00
MOT		£40.00	£40.00
Tyres		£1,010.00	£800.00
Home charge point		£100.00	£-
Total		£3,756.32	£12,182.91
			£8,426.59

Feel free to pick the numbers apart or suggest things that I have missed. 

 

I’ve driven a similar distance in my current l200 so far fuel is approx £5k servicing is £750 and road tax is about the same no tyres needed.  If you factor in the fact you need a defender as well you may well be paying more...... that and I’m not sure how your Tesla would cope with a trip to Cornwall with a 1500kg caravan on the back or shall we say how many charges it would need. 

[AVB]

6 minutes ago, al4x said:

I’ve driven a similar distance in my current l200 so far fuel is approx £5k servicing is £750 and road tax is about the same no tyres needed.  If you factor in the fact you need a defender as well you may well be paying more...... that and I’m not sure how your Tesla would cope with a trip to Cornwall with a 1500kg caravan on the back or shall we say how many charges it would need. 

Yep you are right about towing. I think most people would agree that the benefit of the move to electric will be the demise of caravans on the road. And I don’t need a Defender I just wanted one. 

[Old farrier]

Now here’s the next question 

when you have a accident and it catches fire? 
not to mention the whole thing being live and electrocuting the emergency services 

is there a protocol in place to deal with the problems 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

A good point!

[AVB]

16 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Now here’s the next question 

when you have a accident and it catches fire? 
not to mention the whole thing being live and electrocuting the emergency services 

is there a protocol in place to deal with the problems 

I’d rather be in an electric car in an accident than in a car containing 20 gallons of highly flammable liquid! 
these are the available stats regarding Tesla fires

From 2012 – 2019, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 175 million miles traveled. By comparison, data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and U.S. Department of Transportation shows that in the United States there is a vehicle fire for every 19 million miles traveled.

 

Yes emergency services are trained in how to deal with electric cars. The battery can be isolated by cutting the ‘first responder loop’ which is accessible from the ‘frunk’ 

[GingerCat]

14 hours ago, AVB said:

Yep you are right about towing. I think most people would agree that the benefit of the move to electric will be the demise of caravans on the road. 

Suddenly I'm liking the sound of the electric revolution. 

[London Best]

I don’t think caravans have been quite so much of a nuisance these days since they started fitting cars with horsepower.

[button]

On 20/11/2020 at 15:49, Old farrier said:

But how many miles? 
my diesel fuel tank will take me 700 + miles on a fill on a bad day I maybe use a bit more still leaves plenty of reserve on a 500 mile run 

it seems more critical to know these things on a EV with a shorter range 

What vehicle is that?

I had a hybrid for a year and they are not all they are cracked up to be in my opinion, car on charge for 3 hours for 35 mile range, glad to see the back of it!

[Old farrier]

32 minutes ago, button said:

What vehicle is that?

I had a hybrid for a year and they are not all they are cracked up to be in my opinion, car on charge for 3 hours for 35 mile range, glad to see the back of it!

L200 with a safari package 

[button]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

L200 with a safari package 

I'm getting nowhere near that out of my L200, you may be need to give me some tips!

[Old farrier]

7 minutes ago, button said:

I'm getting nowhere near that out of my L200, you may be need to give me some tips!

Basically it’s just a extra fuel tank 

[Stonepark]

On 20/11/2020 at 20:08, AVB said:

From 2012 – 2019, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 175 million miles traveled. By comparison, data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and U.S. Department of Transportation shows that in the United States there is a vehicle fire for every 19 million miles traveled.

Slightly disingenuous in that the average age of a car on the road in the USA is 12 years and 25% are older than 16 years and therefore more prone to electrical fires due to age of wiring looms.

 

The oldest Tesla's are just making it to 12 year old now (roadster 2008) and model s (2012) have 4 years to go.

[button]

37 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Basically it’s just a extra fuel tank 

That's cheating🤣

[Mungler]

We’ve done the maths at work and the current P11D value of a 100% electric vehicle makes them a no brainer.

indeed, with the money you save you can run another car, be that 4x4 or classic. 

I am a total petrol head but I am realistic enough to know that combustion engine motoring is now substantially over - it’s just when not if.

 

 

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

We’ve done the maths at work and the current P11D value of a 100% electric vehicle makes them a no brainer.

 

 

Until the government puts all the tax it is missing from petrol/diesel vehicles on to electric ones.

[Mungler]

56 minutes ago, London Best said:

Until the government puts all the tax it is missing from petrol/diesel vehicles on to electric ones.

Indeed, it’s to encourage people to jump in and make the change and it’s good for the next 3 years which is the leasing cycle on our work cars. After 3 years we’ll have another look at what’s what and go from there.

There’s business leasing deals on the new Tesla 3 at £365 a month plus VAT and that as a business expense is a no brainer.  I’m looking at the Model S Ludicrous option is £790, and that has hyper car performance and a 0-60 in 2 seconds. It’s a bit of fun in an otherwise depressing world.

 

 

[London Best]

WHAT, Every month?

Now that is no brains for a private individual.

[Mungler]

54 minutes ago, London Best said:

WHAT, Every month?

Now that is no brains for a private individual.

Business leasing is a different ball game and in this arena the advantages electric has over petrol / diesel are extensive.

However, the average depreciation of a new car is 15-35% each year and so if you were a private individual in the habit of changing your car every year, every 3 years or even every 5 years, leasing is still likely to work out better for you. If that’s not you, or for examine you buy your cars 10 years old or to a max of £5k and then scrap them when you’re done then leasing is not for you.