Lead shot for live quarry - a five-year transition, not a one-year solution

[Scully]

2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Scully to answer your question, yes it is for all live quarry, not just game.

see

https://basc.org.uk/a-joint-statement-on-the-future-of-shotgun-ammunition-for-live-quarry-shooting/

 

 

I know, I was being cheeky! 🙂

[GingerCat]

Getting rid of lead is one thing, what about the plastic wads? My perm won't allow plastic wads and I'm sure I'm not alone. 

Does this apply to rifles and airguns as well? It will be the death of airguns if so. 

[Walker570]

I'm just stocking up.

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, GingerCat said:

Getting rid of lead is one thing, what about the plastic wads? My perm won't allow plastic wads and I'm sure I'm not alone. 

Does this apply to rifles and airguns as well? It will be the death of airguns if so. 

The shooting organisations voluntary ban is to use non toxic shot and biodegradable wads for all live quarry shooting.
like the Eley eco steel shot cartridges using a biodegradable wad. Yes they use a plastic wad but it is very hygroscopic and dissolves in a matter of hours/days.
If that is not allowed then gamebore and jocker make a steel shot cartridge using a cardboard wads.
Just don’t look at the price of any of them unless sitting down.
Their are some other offering steel shot and using a plastic wad that looks to be a bioplastic wad but apparently they take months to disappear given bioplastic is really aimed at composting to break down rather than laying on the surface.
No industry standard that a wad has to meet to be called a biodegradable wad, which would be useful.

The voluntary ban is for shotgun cartridges only.

 

 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

I'm just stocking up.

🙂👍

[oowee]

On 28/02/2021 at 11:17, CharlieT said:

Just my 2 pennies worth. 

I really do believe the time has come reduce and phase out lead shot used in game shooting. I'm not personally concerned about eating a pheasant with a few lead shot in it, but what I do find concerning, is what must be the vast amounts of lead shot that contaminates the ground in and around gun pegs. On whichever side of the argument one stands, this amount of lead, year on year, being spread on the ground just can't be defended. 

For the serious game shot, the increased cost of lead substitute cartridges or a new gun is insignificant when compared to the cost of a seasons shooting.

We bleat on about how much benefit game shooting brings to the environment, yet continue to argue that dumping lorry loads of lead in the countryside is justified.

I for one am pleased that the likes of the CA and BASC are driving this agenda forward.

 

Spot on. My position exactly. 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

The shooting organisations voluntary ban phasing out is to use non toxic shot and biodegradable wads for all live quarry shooting.
like the Eley eco steel shot cartridges using a biodegradable wad. Yes they use a plastic wad but it is very hygroscopic and dissolves in a matter of hours/days.
If that is not allowed then gamebore and jocker make a steel shot cartridge using a cardboard wads.
Just don’t look at the price of any of them unless sitting down.
Their are some other offering steel shot and using a plastic wad that looks to be a bioplastic wad but apparently they take months to disappear given bioplastic is really aimed at composting to break down rather than laying on the surface.
No industry standard that a wad has to meet to be called a biodegradable wad, which would be useful.

The voluntary ban phasing out is for shotgun cartridges only.

 

 

There we go!

[rbrowning2]

29 minutes ago, wymberley said:

There we go!

Like it, but nothing will be phased out all the time the manufactures continue to make cartridges containing lead shot especially if they are the cheapest choice.
Will be a brave manufacture that stops making all game and pest control cartridges in lead shot. 

 

[captainhastings]

Down to price plain as for me. Good intentions come second to paying the bills and doing a bit of what I enjoy. It is nice to do the right thing mind. I went fibre wads today as the price was only 2 quid extra I can live with that for a slab 

[Fellside]

Two things to perhaps consider.

1. There is very little science behind the drive towards non lead - as evidence re terrestrial lead shot issues is inadequate at best.  The lead phase out is mainly based on political appeasement and not robust data. 

2. The Uk represents a very small part of the global cartridge market - which is currently dominated by lead shot and plastic wads. Most of our main UK brands are ‘loaders’ using imported components. Eley (Maxam) being the notable exception. They are therefore not in a position to innovate re cartridge technology - being more reliant on what the rest of the world make. 
 

Hence, for all concerned, there is a pressure to change beyond reasonable expectation. 

[rbrowning2]

11 hours ago, captainhastings said:

Down to price plain as for me. Good intentions come second to paying the bills and doing a bit of what I enjoy. It is nice to do the right thing mind. I went fibre wads today as the price was only 2 quid extra I can live with that for a slab 

Hear what you are saying but now the shooting organisations have aligned themselves with the ban lead shot campaign for live quarry shooting.
At the end of the five year transition away from lead shot it will be untenable to continue to use lead shot and non biodegradable wads. So sadly the expectation will be if you cannot afford to use such cartridges then you should not shoot live quarry.
Fingers crossed prices do come down to that which we can all afford and not just big day game shooters.

 

 

[udderlyoffroad]

9 hours ago, Fellside said:

hey are therefore not in a position to innovate re cartridge technology - being more reliant on what the rest of the world make. 

I disagree.

Firstly, if you're small, you're nimble, and don't suffer from as much organisational inertia and resistance to change.  Yes, your R&D budget might be a fraction of the big boys, but you can spend it better.

Secondly, the drive to reduce single use plastic is a global effort, and innovations by big players will trickle down.

Affordable degradable wads for steel is the holy grail everyone in the industry is chasing.  Competition is good.

Meantime, why the **** hell can't they make plastic wads in hi-viz orange or yellow?  Would at least be easier to spot and pick up?

[Salopian]

Interesting comments by many .

Let us never forget that BASC stated at the very beginning that we should not change until an ECONOMIC suitable alternative to lead was readily available . Steel is no longer an economic alternative . 

I really do think we are a very long way from finding an alternative to Lead , and that the pollution /toxic argument is exaggerated and shouted about far to much .

Not one manufacturer in the UK produces a cartridge using British made components , not even Eley which uses Spanish imports . 

As for Tonnes of lead deposited on Gameshoots , have you ever seen detrimental issues ? Lead , being a heavy item soon sinks into the Earth and calcifies , becoming a none hazardous element , remember Lead is mined and then refined to become a usable material . 

Perhaps we could step back in time and enjoy  our sport without interference from Eco-Warriors . " Methinks thou protestath too much"  .

Or should I just bury my head in the lead strewn sand?

[Scully]

14 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

Secondly, the drive to reduce single use plastic is a global effort, and innovations by big players will trickle down.

Affordable degradable wads for steel is the holy grail everyone in the industry is chasing.  Competition is good.

Meantime, why the **** hell can't they make plastic wads in hi-viz orange or yellow?  Would at least be easier to spot and pick up?

Agreed. There must be millions of plastic wads littering our shores and wherever else in the environment it is forbidden to use lead, and once lead goes the issue of plastic littering the countryside will become another nail in the coffin lid used to bury shooting. 
I collected most of the cases my auto ejected in the wood ( why not make them hi viz too, and biodegradable ?) at the weekend as they’re relatively easy to spot, but only picked two wads.

 

[JTaylor91]

I would of thought the phasing out of plastic wads would be more of a priority than lead shot. A plastic wad uses the same amount of plastic as a carrier bag, I doubt anybody on here would think throwing 30, 40, 50 carrier bags into a field would be okay.

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I disagree.

Firstly, if you're small, you're nimble, and don't suffer from as much organisational inertia and resistance to change.  Yes, your R&D budget might be a fraction of the big boys, but you can spend it better.

Secondly, the drive to reduce single use plastic is a global effort, and innovations by big players will trickle down.

Affordable degradable wads for steel is the holy grail everyone in the industry is chasing.  Competition is good.

Meantime, why the **** hell can't they make plastic wads in hi-viz orange or yellow?  Would at least be easier to spot and pick up?

You’ve hit the nail on the head - R and D budget is a fraction of the big boys. 

I respectfully disagree with your take on this. When I travel (until recently?!) to Europe or the USA, virtually all I see is plastic wads. I haven’t noticed any ground breaking innovation  re new environmental products. I would like to be proven wrong with a huge choice in successfully developed ‘biowads’ flooding in from overseas (just for the record, I don’t like plastic wads). Unfortunately we are far from this ideal currently. Let us hope we have new and exciting choices in the near future as part of the global anti plastic movement. My comments above - if you pick up the context - is that we are simply not any where near ready for the changes proposed. 

[rbrowning2]

The use of plastic is certainly a big concern, If you spend some time reading up and YouTubing watching on the types of plastics it is very interesting.

The packaging industry Is leading the way and that is a massive global industry with the resources to invest in R&D.

it looks like so far the only biodegradable plastic that degrades regardless of the environment it is in is PVA which is what the Eley wads use.

The remaining plastics labelled biodegradable are made from biomaterial and termed bioplastic however it looks to only be biodegradable in many months (year or two) when it is composted not when laying on the surface. Hence is used in packaging that ends up in land fill. By comparison non biodegradable plastic life is typically up to 450years.

Possibly the way forward is not with plastic wads but the paper/card type wads.

We will never win the argument that spaying a know poison lead, around the environment is sustainable forever.

 

 

[Fellside]

2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Hear what you are saying but now the shooting organisations have aligned themselves with the ban lead shot campaign for live quarry shooting.
At the end of the five year transition away from lead shot it will be untenable to continue to use lead shot and non biodegradable wads. So sadly the expectation will be if you cannot afford to use such cartridges then you should not shoot live quarry.
Fingers crossed prices do come down to that which we can all afford and not just big day game shooters.

 

 

I will follow the evidence base re terrestrial lead shot use - and will therefore not use steel unless legally obliged to do so. I certainly won’t change to because ‘pseudo eco warriors’ imagine they know best or for reasons of political appeasement. 

5 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

The use of plastic is certainly a big concern, If you spend some time reading up and YouTubing watching on the types of plastics it is very interesting.

The packaging industry Is leading the way and that is a massive global industry with the resources to invest in R&D.

it looks like so far the only biodegradable plastic that degrades regardless of the environment it is in is PVA which is what the Eley wads use.

The remaining plastics labelled biodegradable are made from biomaterial and termed bioplastic however it looks to only be biodegradable in many months (year or two) when it is composted not when laying on the surface. Hence is used in packaging that ends up in land fill. By comparison non biodegradable plastic life is typically up to 450years.

Possibly the way forward is not with plastic wads but the paper/card type wads.

We will never win the argument that spaying a know poison lead, around the environment is sustainable forever.

 

 

Thanks for these observations - very interesting. Yes agreed the way forward appears to be non plastic ‘type’ wads. As for lead I’m afraid I can’t agree with you unless new evidence dictates other wise. 

[udderlyoffroad]

23 minutes ago, Fellside said:

is that we are simply not any where near ready for the changes proposed. 

It's a voluntary phase out in 4 years' time. A lot can happen in 4 years.   

I honestly didn't understand the mentality of the all these people who were straight on the phone to Just Cartridges or their RFD, the day after the organisations made their announcement, demanding solutions now.

Personally, I'll keep using lead with fibre (lesser of 2 evils) and try the occasional box of steel, as and when my RFD has reasonably priced Steel+Degradable Wads in stock.  Certainly won't be hoarding Lead, any more than I already do....

[clangerman]

when the ban has been and gone your children will still be drinking water from lead pipes which just shows the motives of those pushing this rubbish are neither health or the environment 

[rbrowning2]

2 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I will follow the evidence base re terrestrial lead shot use - and will therefore not use steel unless legally obliged to do so. I certainly won’t change to because ‘pseudo eco warriors’ imagine they know best or for reasons of political appeasement. 

We are where we are, my take on this is that the shooting organisation, especially one who invested in the sale of game were getting told that sales of game into the food chain only had a future if shot with non toxic shot. Be that for the home market or export.
They probably wanted a legal ban, which they could have distanced themselves from, if they openly promoted a legal ban that would have been an even bigger u turn costing them members. Then timing politically was far from good for such a ban to happen, hence almost certainly going to take longer than the five year voluntary transition they came up with.

 

 

 

 

[wymberley]

16 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Like it, but nothing will be phased out all the time the manufactures continue to make cartridges containing lead shot especially if they are the cheapest choice.
Will be a brave manufacture that stops making all game and pest control cartridges in lead shot. 

 

2 hours ago, Salopian said:

Interesting comments by many .

Let us never forget that BASC stated at the very beginning that we should not change until an ECONOMIC suitable alternative to lead was readily available . Steel is no longer an economic alternative . 

I really do think we are a very long way from finding an alternative to Lead , and that the pollution /toxic argument is exaggerated and shouted about far to much .

Not one manufacturer in the UK produces a cartridge using British made components , not even Eley which uses Spanish imports . 

As for Tonnes of lead deposited on Gameshoots , have you ever seen detrimental issues ? Lead , being a heavy item soon sinks into the Earth and calcifies , becoming a none hazardous element , remember Lead is mined and then refined to become a usable material . 

Perhaps we could step back in time and enjoy  our sport without interference from Eco-Warriors . " Methinks thou protestath too much"  .

Or should I just bury my head in the lead strewn sand?

Good post and particularly for the first two bullet points, I feel.

"Economic" was just one of the four requirements, another being non toxic. The buzz word is 'tungsten' and the jury is still out regarding its toxicity with research beginning to reflect that all may not be well after all. If lead does go and should tungsten follow suit, then for some, game shooting of the low bird variety is going to lose its charisma. Those still keen will simply have to go back in time and revert to enjoying the 25 yard birds using whatever NTS is  propelled by a NTW (wad).

I just hope that our foreshore 'fowlers who have made the best of a poor job get the wads that they need to carry on as now.

Me? Well, I'll just carry on using lead because common sense will prevail and for vermin control (which is all I now do) where there is no standing water on a non specific status (SSSI, etc, etc) location it will remain acceptable although some conditions may be applied.

[rbrowning2]

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Me? Well, I'll just carry on using lead until legally banned because common sense will prevail and for vermin control (which is all I now do) where there is no standing water on a non specific status (SSSI, etc, etc) location it will remain acceptable although some conditions may be applied.

Have updated that for you.

[wymberley]

3 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Have updated that for you.

Thank you, but I'm not sure that is what I meant because if common sense prevails it will not be banned across the board. Either that or because it will be a sequential series of occurrences from when any lawful change is introduced by the time it takes effect - probably sooner the way I'm feeling at the moment - I'll have another use for any lead that I still have.

[Scully]

26 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Me? Well, I'll just carry on using lead.

I seriously doubt you’ll be the only one.