Lead shot for live quarry - a five-year transition, not a one-year solution

[8 shot]

On 17/03/2021 at 19:54, Westley said:

Just how many Raptors have died through eating carrion that have been shot with lead then  ?

The anti lead brigade seem totally unable to show any proof of just how lethal lead is to ANY other birds. I keep hearing of all these birds dying from lead poisoning, all I ask is SHOW ME    !

Absolutley ****** all died from carrion here. We supposedly dump tens of thousand game birds in the countryside every season, presumedly Raptors live very well on them through the hungry gap but then curl up and die from lead poisoning. WRONG !!! There have never been so many birds of prey around are area. Come summer we can get as many as 20 Red Kites and equal amount of Buzzard following the mowers and cultivators on just 400 acres. Shooting is an easy target as the goverment know the BASC etc. will not put up any defence what so ever 

[51/50]

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

On 17/03/2021 at 19:54, Westley said:

Just how many Raptors have died through eating carrion that have been shot with lead then  ?

The anti lead brigade seem totally unable to show any proof of just how lethal lead is to ANY other birds. I keep hearing of all these birds dying from lead poisoning, all I ask is SHOW ME    !

There are a few birds shown dying from lead poisoning in the video below.

 

[Velocette]

What piece of emotive claptrap !  Where are the "thousands " of dying birds? Surely the WORLD WILDFOWL TRUST can do better that that when they attempt to substantiate the unprovable.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Velocette
Correction

[clangerman]

if a word of it was true every wetland in the country would need a skip for the bodies shooters have been waiting years and still NO sign of all these dead birds and why? because it’s a LIE! 

[8 shot]

19 minutes ago, Velocette said:

What piece of emotive claptrap !  Where are the "thousands " of dying birds? Surely the WORLD WILDFOWL TRUST can do better that that when they attempt to substantiate the unprovable.

And being pedalled by the BASC, soon to become BAC.

[Westley]

Connor, I feel that the title of the video sums it all up really,  a 'FEW' birds that have died from ingesting lead shot. I like many other shooters and eaters of game, have probably ingested quite a bit of lead shot over the past 65 years. As a child and learning to shoot an air rifle, the accepted place to keep the pellets together was in your mouth !  I am a time served Plumber and Gasfitter, which was in the 1960's. An awful lot of lead piping around then and ALL gas meters were fitted with lead pipe, apart from the industrial sized meters. For 5 or 6 days a week, I and most of my fellow workmates handled lead piping, from which our hands would be black. When it came to eating lunch, be it sandwiches or fish and chips, this was eaten using our fingers and in most cases the facilities to wash one's hands did not exist, especially on building sites.  With regards to the total disappearance of lead in petrol, paint and pipes, I am unable to comment on the former two, BUT I can comment on the pipes. I agree that most plastic water mains are now lined with plastic, but this was carried out to help reduce the abnormally high number of water leaks, that were sprouting up everywhere, especially during a drought. As this was the cause of a lot of public criticism, much was made of the installation of 'Plastic Water Pipes' throughout the Country.  What is NEVER publicized is the number of houses throughout Britain that are still having their water supplied through lead pipes. I will accept that probably all 'new build' houses are fitted with plastic 'service' pipes, but at least 80% of houses are still supplied through lead pipes. People have paid Utility Companies thousands of pounds to have their lead service pipe replaced by plastic and it has been................as far as the service stop cock fitted outside the property. From the opposite side of that stop cock to the main water pipe is still LEAD  !   I know of at least 3 shooters who have all been carrying lead pellets in their bodies in excess of 50 years and to date have not suffered any ill effects. So, I hope that you can see my, and MANY other shooters scepticism, when we are being FORCED to accept something with very little, if ANY acceptable evidence and without any discussion or the views of the Membership having being considered.

[Conor O'Gorman]

12 minutes ago, Westley said:

Connor, I feel that the title of the video sums it all up really,  a 'FEW' birds that have died from ingesting lead shot. I like many other shooters and eaters of game, have probably ingested quite a bit of lead shot over the past 65 years. As a child and learning to shoot an air rifle, the accepted place to keep the pellets together was in your mouth !  I am a time served Plumber and Gasfitter, which was in the 1960's. An awful lot of lead piping around then and ALL gas meters were fitted with lead pipe, apart from the industrial sized meters. For 5 or 6 days a week, I and most of my fellow workmates handled lead piping, from which our hands would be black. When it came to eating lunch, be it sandwiches or fish and chips, this was eaten using our fingers and in most cases the facilities to wash one's hands did not exist, especially on building sites.  With regards to the total disappearance of lead in petrol, paint and pipes, I am unable to comment on the former two, BUT I can comment on the pipes. I agree that most plastic water mains are now lined with plastic, but this was carried out to help reduce the abnormally high number of water leaks, that were sprouting up everywhere, especially during a drought. As this was the cause of a lot of public criticism, much was made of the installation of 'Plastic Water Pipes' throughout the Country.  What is NEVER publicized is the number of houses throughout Britain that are still having their water supplied through lead pipes. I will accept that probably all 'new build' houses are fitted with plastic 'service' pipes, but at least 80% of houses are still supplied through lead pipes. People have paid Utility Companies thousands of pounds to have their lead service pipe replaced by plastic and it has been................as far as the service stop cock fitted outside the property. From the opposite side of that stop cock to the main water pipe is still LEAD  !   I know of at least 3 shooters who have all been carrying lead pellets in their bodies in excess of 50 years and to date have not suffered any ill effects. So, I hope that you can see my, and MANY other shooters scepticism, when we are being FORCED to accept something with very little, if ANY acceptable evidence and without any discussion or the views of the Membership having being considered.

Thanks Westley. You asked for someone to show you evidence of birds dying from lead poisoning and that video is quite clear in the factual evidence of it - yes, change is difficult - we ask for evidence - and when we hear/see/read it our initial reaction is denial. I can fully relate to that.

The following research paper may be of interest on the perspectives of ammunition users on the use of lead ammunition and its potential impacts on wildlife and humans:

https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pan3.30

The GWCT have produced a useful overview here:

https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2020/february/moving-away-from-lead-faqs/

There is no doubt that the changes ahead will be challenging for us all but the science and evidence around the impacts of lead ammunition on environment, wildlife and human health are overwhelming.  Try a search on Google Scholar for the key words you wish to explore or just click the link below for results of lead ammunition poisoning. A fair few results...

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=lead+ammunition+poisoning&btnG=

As for lead pipes this is an issue of ongoing concern for water companies. See this for example:

https://www.unitedutilities.com/lead-pipes

The situation ahead in the UK is that the Environment Agency, together with the Health and Safety Executive, are conducting a two-year process to review the evidence, conduct a public consultation and propose options for restrictions. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plans-announced-to-phase-out-lead-ammunition-in-bid-to-protect-wildlife

The UK government has shown support for shooting’s voluntary five-year transition away from both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns. That voluntary transition is in consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad.

There will be no knee jerk lead ammunition ban in the UK as things stand and both the voluntary transition and the government’s review must consider a complex mix of economics, technical factors and attitudes. 

However, there is a key principle we must not lose sight of:  further restrictions on lead ammunition must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand.

Ammunition manufacturers in the UK and abroad are developing new products but the amount of non-lead ammunition required for the UK and world-wide with current production facilities is a significant challenge.

There are no immediate changes on the horizon.  Any restrictions that do come into force will very likely be after the end of the five year voluntary transition away from lead shot announced by the shooting organisations over a year ago.

Looking on the bright side I think the review will provide opportunities for a rational assessment and positive solutions.

Because as conservationists we are committed to further reducing the risks of lead ammunition to the environment, wildlife and human health.

[clangerman]

14 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks Westley. You asked for someone to show you evidence of birds dying from lead poisoning and that video is quite clear in the factual evidence of it 

only FACT in that video was the clear attempt to claim the FISHING shot in its gizzard came from shooting obviously some people need a eye test 

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, clangerman said:

only FACT in that video was the clear attempt to claim the FISHING shot in its gizzard came from shooting obviously some people need a eye test 

In all honesty, as a fisherman, they didn’t appear to be split shot. Lead split shot has been banned for decades across Europe. In fact it was voluntarily banned by the angling community and tackle shops before legislators acted - so it hasn’t been used for even longer than most imagine. 

[Scully]

33 minutes ago, Fellside said:

In all honesty, as a fisherman, they didn’t appear to be split shot. Lead split shot has been banned for decades across Europe. In fact it was voluntarily banned by the angling community and tackle shops before legislators acted - so it hasn’t been used for even longer than most imagine. 

I'm afraid you're mistaken. Have another look at the lead shot in the petri dish, there is clearly split lead fishing shot present. 

 

[matone]

16 hours ago, Westley said:

Connor, I feel that the title of the video sums it all up really,  a 'FEW' birds that have died from ingesting lead shot. I like many other shooters and eaters of game, have probably ingested quite a bit of lead shot over the past 65 years. As a child and learning to shoot an air rifle, the accepted place to keep the pellets together was in your mouth !  I am a time served Plumber and Gasfitter, which was in the 1960's. An awful lot of lead piping around then and ALL gas meters were fitted with lead pipe, apart from the industrial sized meters. For 5 or 6 days a week, I and most of my fellow workmates handled lead piping, from which our hands would be black. When it came to eating lunch, be it sandwiches or fish and chips, this was eaten using our fingers and in most cases the facilities to wash one's hands did not exist, especially on building sites.  With regards to the total disappearance of lead in petrol, paint and pipes, I am unable to comment on the former two, BUT I can comment on the pipes. I agree that most plastic water mains are now lined with plastic, but this was carried out to help reduce the abnormally high number of water leaks, that were sprouting up everywhere, especially during a drought. As this was the cause of a lot of public criticism, much was made of the installation of 'Plastic Water Pipes' throughout the Country.  What is NEVER publicized is the number of houses throughout Britain that are still having their water supplied through lead pipes. I will accept that probably all 'new build' houses are fitted with plastic 'service' pipes, but at least 80% of houses are still supplied through lead pipes. People have paid Utility Companies thousands of pounds to have their lead service pipe replaced by plastic and it has been................as far as the service stop cock fitted outside the property. From the opposite side of that stop cock to the main water pipe is still LEAD  !   I know of at least 3 shooters who have all been carrying lead pellets in their bodies in excess of 50 years and to date have not suffered any ill effects. So, I hope that you can see my, and MANY other shooters scepticism, when we are being FORCED to accept something with very little, if ANY acceptable evidence and without any discussion or the views of the Membership having being considered.

Well said!!! We`re being force fed a load of fabricated tosh .

16 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks Westley. You asked for someone to show you evidence of birds dying from lead poisoning and that video is quite clear in the factual evidence of it - yes, change is difficult - we ask for evidence - and when we hear/see/read it our initial reaction is denial. I can fully relate to that.

The following research paper may be of interest on the perspectives of ammunition users on the use of lead ammunition and its potential impacts on wildlife and humans:

https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pan3.30

The GWCT have produced a useful overview here:

https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2020/february/moving-away-from-lead-faqs/

There is no doubt that the changes ahead will be challenging for us all but the science and evidence around the impacts of lead ammunition on environment, wildlife and human health are overwhelming.  Try a search on Google Scholar for the key words you wish to explore or just click the link below for results of lead ammunition poisoning. A fair few results...

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=lead+ammunition+poisoning&btnG=

As for lead pipes this is an issue of ongoing concern for water companies. See this for example:

https://www.unitedutilities.com/lead-pipes

The situation ahead in the UK is that the Environment Agency, together with the Health and Safety Executive, are conducting a two-year process to review the evidence, conduct a public consultation and propose options for restrictions. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plans-announced-to-phase-out-lead-ammunition-in-bid-to-protect-wildlife

The UK government has shown support for shooting’s voluntary five-year transition away from both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns. That voluntary transition is in consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad.

There will be no knee jerk lead ammunition ban in the UK as things stand and both the voluntary transition and the government’s review must consider a complex mix of economics, technical factors and attitudes. 

However, there is a key principle we must not lose sight of:  further restrictions on lead ammunition must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand.

Ammunition manufacturers in the UK and abroad are developing new products but the amount of non-lead ammunition required for the UK and world-wide with current production facilities is a significant challenge.

There are no immediate changes on the horizon.  Any restrictions that do come into force will very likely be after the end of the five year voluntary transition away from lead shot announced by the shooting organisations over a year ago.

Looking on the bright side I think the review will provide opportunities for a rational assessment and positive solutions.

Because as conservationists we are committed to further reducing the risks of lead ammunition to the environment, wildlife and human health.

So why Mr BASC ,was your Org ,until pretty recently ,supposedly fighting against any further imposition of non fact based restrictions? Or did we all imagine that ?

Or have we been fed a line ever since the treachery of Mr Swift?

[Fellside]

43 minutes ago, Scully said:

I'm afraid you're mistaken. Have another look at the lead shot in the petri dish, there is clearly split lead fishing shot present. 

 

I will put my most powerful specs on and have a good stare at it. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, matone said:

So why Mr BASC ,was your Org ,until pretty recently ,supposedly fighting against any further imposition of non fact based restrictions? Or did we all imagine that ?

Well said.

 

[wymberley]

18 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks Westley. You asked for someone to show you evidence of birds dying from lead poisoning and that video is quite clear in the factual evidence of it - yes, change is difficult - we ask for evidence - and when we hear/see/read it our initial reaction is denial. I can fully relate to that.

The following research paper may be of interest on the perspectives of ammunition users on the use of lead ammunition and its potential impacts on wildlife and humans:

https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pan3.30

The GWCT have produced a useful overview here:

https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2020/february/moving-away-from-lead-faqs/

There is no doubt that the changes ahead will be challenging for us all but the science and evidence around the impacts of lead ammunition on environment, wildlife and human health are overwhelming.  Try a search on Google Scholar for the key words you wish to explore or just click the link below for results of lead ammunition poisoning. A fair few results...

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=lead+ammunition+poisoning&btnG=

As for lead pipes this is an issue of ongoing concern for water companies. See this for example:

https://www.unitedutilities.com/lead-pipes

The situation ahead in the UK is that the Environment Agency, together with the Health and Safety Executive, are conducting a two-year process to review the evidence, conduct a public consultation and propose options for restrictions. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plans-announced-to-phase-out-lead-ammunition-in-bid-to-protect-wildlife

The UK government has shown support for shooting’s voluntary five-year transition away from both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns. That voluntary transition is in consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad.

There will be no knee jerk lead ammunition ban in the UK as things stand and both the voluntary transition and the government’s review must consider a complex mix of economics, technical factors and attitudes. 

However, there is a key principle we must not lose sight of:  further restrictions on lead ammunition must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand.

Ammunition manufacturers in the UK and abroad are developing new products but the amount of non-lead ammunition required for the UK and world-wide with current production facilities is a significant challenge.

There are no immediate changes on the horizon.  Any restrictions that do come into force will very likely be after the end of the five year voluntary transition away from lead shot announced by the shooting organisations over a year ago.

Looking on the bright side I think the review will provide opportunities for a rational assessment and positive solutions.

Because as conservationists we are committed to further reducing the risks of lead ammunition to the environment, wildlife and human health.

Hang on, where have I seen something like the highlighted paragraph before?

Oh, yes. At the end of Bullet point No 1 of the Executive Summary in "A Ballistics Measurement System to assist the Development and Evaluation of Non-Toxic Shot" - a Report to the Department of the Environment March 1996. The required criteria for this new ammunition would be to be, Safe to Use, Effective, Affordable and Non-Toxic. As these conditions are still to be met in full some 29 years since they were originally specified, what chance has the above highlighted version being met in just five years?

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

I will put my most powerful specs on and have a good stare at it. 

Ordinary reading specs will do, that’s all mine are. I didn’t even have to pause it to see them. 🤷‍♂️

[Old farrier]

So you have found a video of a swan not on the quarry list and done a autopsy on it with absolutely no base line 

no age ? no history ? no cause of death ? 
and no date of autopsy? 
for it to be credible we need a lot more information 

nothing on game birds most of which have a short lifespan compared to a swan 

average pheasant one maybe two years 

swan ? Twenty to thirty years 
 

that film was probably made 20 + years ago before we stopped using lead on wildfowl 

get some credible evidence and information 

until then I shall continue to think this is all about profit 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Old farrier

[Fellside]

6 hours ago, clangerman said:

only FACT in that video was the clear attempt to claim the FISHING shot in its gizzard came from shooting obviously some people need a eye test 

My apologies Clangerman (and Scully). I have enlarged the WWT video and also scrutinised the pellets with my reading specs. I can now see that at least one of the pellets is a split shot. I had a very good image and sharp detail - I could see one more that could have been split also. Where this bird could have picked them up is a mystery as they have not been sold in the UK (or Europe) for decades......?! Perhaps somewhere on its long haul migration....... or it is very old footage. Unfortunately though, most of the pellets don’t appear split. I agree with above comments however, that this is more propaganda than a robust study. As a scientific report it would in all likelihood fail at GCSE level. 

[Fellside]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

Ordinary reading specs will do, that’s all mine are. I didn’t even have to pause it to see them. 🤷‍♂️

Apologies Scully - yes there appears to be a couple of split shot there amongst the others. 
Desperately bad science though....!!

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, Fellside said:

My apologies Clangerman (and Scully). I have enlarged the WWT video and also scrutinised the pellets with my reading specs. I can now see that at least one of the pellets is a split shot. I had a very good image and sharp detail - I could see one more that could have been split also. Where this bird could have picked them up is a mystery as they have not been sold in the UK (or Europe) for decades......?! Perhaps somewhere on its long haul migration....... or it is very old footage. Unfortunately though, most of the pellets don’t appear split. I agree with above comments however, that this is more propaganda than a robust study. As a scientific report it would in all likelihood fail at GCSE level. 

No need to apologise. I’m assuming the smaller pieces of lead are split shot ‘halves’ or remains of lead ground down in the birds gizzard. 
I suspect it is old footage, but have no proof. 
 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Scully

[Fellside]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

 I need to apologise. I’m assuming the smaller pieces of lead are split shot ‘halves’ or remains of lead ground down in the birds gizzard. 
I suspect it is old footage, but have no proof. 
 

Either way it’s a piece of pseudoscience. The main problem arising - is that many people will ‘buy it’ so to speak. 

[Fellside]

23 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

There are a few birds shown dying from lead poisoning in the video below.

 

Conor,

Could you please ask your contacts at WWT for any robust data / evidence (if there is any) arising from this film. It has been established here that some of the lead pieces in the gizzard contents are in fact split shot, the type once used in Angling. These were outlawed in 1987 - although the great majority of anglers had stopped using them at least 2 years prior. It would be helpful if good ‘clean’ science could prevail. At the moment this film appears only as a propaganda piece. 

[clangerman]

17 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Either way it’s a piece of pseudoscience. The main problem arising - is that many people will ‘buy it’ so to speak. 

thats my problem with this rubbish can’t stand lies and most of the stuff put out by those pushing it is made to deceive obviously no standards or morals 

[matone]

But as we know ,if they keep repeating it ,people start to accept it as fact!

[harkom]

On 24/03/2021 at 22:53, 8 shot said:

. Shooting is an easy target as the goverment know the BASC etc. will not put up any defence what so ever 

More to the point , the antagonists to live bird shooting sports know that bsac is a pushover....if they are not actually collaborating behind the scenes. Just remember, any naysayers, what ****swift was up to before he departed the organisation , presumably with a sizeable pension funded by the mugs who subscribe.