Online pedophiles

[mel b3]

I've just been watching BBC news .  One of the articles is regarding the rise in pedophiles targeting children (online) over the last twelve months , and in particular,  coercing children into abusing younger children , and siblings .  Why aren't these people being caught and sent to prison ?. I'm not very techy , but surely it can't be that difficult to backtrack from one computer to another , and get information from Internet companies, or , why can't Internet companies stop adults from contacting children in the first place ? , or why can't the government and Internet companies , stop pedophiles from setting up and running their websites ? . Surely  to god their must be an answer somewhere ?.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

And why can't the Parents be a little more caring in looking after their children?

[mel b3]

2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

And why can't the Parents be a little more caring in looking after their children?

From what I saw and understood of the news item( i don't understand a lot of the techy stuff), even when parents are careful , paedophiles are still able to target children . One story was how a paedophile was targeting a eight year old girl , the girls mom sort of shut it down , but he found the girl again. 

Surely with all the tech in the world , somebody must be able to stop it from happening. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Shocking, glad my children have grown up.

[ditchman]

this has been going on for 1000's of years............before the advent of the internet and mobile phones.........my daughter was approached several times walking home from school by men in cars offering a lift or sweets.........she was well schooled by me and used to run for it on the pavement to the house.....most of the approaches happened within 50 yards of our house...........

it was reported to the police everytime........nothing ever came of the reporting.........even gave number plate ...description's etc..........the most feed back i ever got was..........

"oh yes ...we are aware of that person................."............................end of ..

[chrisjpainter]

14 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

I've just been watching BBC news .  One of the articles is regarding the rise in pedophiles targeting children (online) over the last twelve months , and in particular,  coercing children into abusing younger children , and siblings .  Why aren't these people being caught and sent to prison ?. I'm not very techy , but surely it can't be that difficult to backtrack from one computer to another , and get information from Internet companies, or , why can't Internet companies stop adults from contacting children in the first place ? , or why can't the government and Internet companies , stop pedophiles from setting up and running their websites ? . Surely  to god their must be an answer somewhere ?.

It's a cyber war that's lead by the perpetrators, not the authorities, so governments and agencies are always one step behind. In short it can be next to impossible to track someone if they really don't want to be tracked. Let's say I wanted to track you down. That would be pretty straightforward as tracing an IP address is not difficult. But imagine if that IP is either encrypted or misleading. A VPN will encrypt an IP and they're downloadable and useful for entirely innocent purposes. But without breaking the encryption (PROPERLY difficult) it's almost impossible to get into without login details. Some IP defences bounce the IP around the globe, so I think I've got you in the UK, but then the IP's actually coming from the UAE but then that one's actually in Russia...Cuba...France...Lichtenstein, so I'm constantly chasing my own tail all over the globe trying to get to you. And knowing where you are doesn't mean I know what you're doing. I'd still need to hack into your computer to get evidence - and that's after the criteria for reasonable grounds for a search have been met. It's catch-22. I can't get grounds for a search without evidence, I can't get evidence without the search. Good quality anti-virus and anti hacking software can lock a computer down almost completely without login details. Internet search history could be completely mundane. If it's all full of chainsaw products, fishing videos, John Lewis clothing and Waitrose food orders, I've got nothing to go on, because all the nefarious activity will be going on on the dark web and that's the stuff that is all encrypted and hidden. On the surface it's all sweetness and light, so there's no obvious grounds for concern.

Internet companies are more like boat hiring people. They give you a boat, but they've got no idea what you're going to do with it or where you're going to go. If a GPS gets turned off, you could be in the Thames, or the Kennet and Avon, or the North Sea, or the Channel or half way to the Azores!
Things like Whatsapp are what's called end-to-end encrypted, meaning that not even Whatsapp has access to them and there have been a few high profile cases where the police have tried to compel whatsapp to break in, but they can't. If someone doesn't want to be found, it's very very difficult to know where to look.

Plus, you've got to know that you're looking for them! If I don't know it's you, then I'm looking for a needle in a haystack - but don't even know if I'm looking in the right haystack. Or what the needle looks like. Or how big the needle is.

Depressingly, the internet's made people far more vulnerable and criminals far harder to find than ever before

[mel b3]

1 hour ago, chrisjpainter said:

It's a cyber war that's lead by the perpetrators, not the authorities, so governments and agencies are always one step behind. In short it can be next to impossible to track someone if they really don't want to be tracked. Let's say I wanted to track you down. That would be pretty straightforward as tracing an IP address is not difficult. But imagine if that IP is either encrypted or misleading. A VPN will encrypt an IP and they're downloadable and useful for entirely innocent purposes. But without breaking the encryption (PROPERLY difficult) it's almost impossible to get into without login details. Some IP defences bounce the IP around the globe, so I think I've got you in the UK, but then the IP's actually coming from the UAE but then that one's actually in Russia...Cuba...France...Lichtenstein, so I'm constantly chasing my own tail all over the globe trying to get to you. And knowing where you are doesn't mean I know what you're doing. I'd still need to hack into your computer to get evidence - and that's after the criteria for reasonable grounds for a search have been met. It's catch-22. I can't get grounds for a search without evidence, I can't get evidence without the search. Good quality anti-virus and anti hacking software can lock a computer down almost completely without login details. Internet search history could be completely mundane. If it's all full of chainsaw products, fishing videos, John Lewis clothing and Waitrose food orders, I've got nothing to go on, because all the nefarious activity will be going on on the dark web and that's the stuff that is all encrypted and hidden. On the surface it's all sweetness and light, so there's no obvious grounds for concern.

Internet companies are more like boat hiring people. They give you a boat, but they've got no idea what you're going to do with it or where you're going to go. If a GPS gets turned off, you could be in the Thames, or the Kennet and Avon, or the North Sea, or the Channel or half way to the Azores!
Things like Whatsapp are what's called end-to-end encrypted, meaning that not even Whatsapp has access to them and there have been a few high profile cases where the police have tried to compel whatsapp to break in, but they can't. If someone doesn't want to be found, it's very very difficult to know where to look.

Plus, you've got to know that you're looking for them! If I don't know it's you, then I'm looking for a needle in a haystack - but don't even know if I'm looking in the right haystack. Or what the needle looks like. Or how big the needle is.

Depressingly, the internet's made people far more vulnerable and criminals far harder to find than ever before

That makes for a very depressing read indeed. 

You'd think that Internet companies would do something ( or try to ) to make things visible , so that they couldn't hide in the shadows ,  but then I supposed that would mean that billions of decent people worldwide,  would be penalised for a very small minority of bad people.

[chrisjpainter]

59 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

That makes for a very depressing read indeed. 

You'd think that Internet companies would do something ( or try to ) to make things visible , so that they couldn't hide in the shadows ,  but then I supposed that would mean that billions of decent people worldwide,  would be penalised for a very small minority of bad people.

Aye there's the rub. The only way to remove the shadows is to remove every single privacy law there is, allowing the police or government agencies a complete free reign in surveillance and intrusion, -in effect a return to the days of the Stasi. The idea that if you've not done anything wrong, you've nothing to worry doesn't apply here; Big Brother would still be watching you.

Edited March 24, 2021 by chrisjpainter

[Vince Green]

18 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

Aye there's the rub. The only way to remove the shadows is to remove every single privacy law there is, allowing the police or government agencies a complete free reign in surveillance and intrusion, -in effect a return to the days of the Stasi. The idea that if you've not done anything wrong, you've nothing to worry doesn't apply here; Big Brother would still be watching you.

Big brother can watch me as much as he likes. The internet is like a cess pit with all the perverts and scammers. At some stage, like it or not, action has to be taken. If it hurts well, so be it

Edited March 24, 2021 by Vince Green

[Lloyd90]

It can’t be done because we don’t compromise the privacy of every single person ever who’s done nothing wrong just to catch a number of people. 
 

Just like we put up with the fact that terrorists have protection under Human Rights laws, so that every single other person in the country enjoys the freedoms due to those rights. 
 

We have some of the most advanced stuff being used to catch these people, GCHQ have a whole department focused on it and do some amazing work that most would not believe. 

[udderlyoffroad]

Wow this thread is depressing...and not because of the paedophiles.

Do you lot blame the Royal Mail every time they deliver a letter bomb to a politician?  I would rather not have EE snooping on me without a damn warrant signed by the secretary of state.

12 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Big brother can watch me as much as he likes.

He can watch you, not me.  I hear China is nice.

If you care that much, see if Teal will turn off the SSL encryption for PW for you?  Thought not.

This asinine "do something!" demand will strip us of what little freedom and privacy we have remaining

[Vince Green]

33 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Wow this thread is depressing...and not because of the paedophiles.

Do you lot blame the Royal Mail every time they deliver a letter bomb to a politician?  I would rather not have EE snooping on me without a damn warrant signed by the secretary of state.

He can watch you, not me.  I hear China is nice.

If you care that much, see if Teal will turn off the SSL encryption for PW for you?  Thought not.

This asinine "do something!" demand will strip us of what little freedom and privacy we have remaining

What is freedom? What is privacy? both are hollow words all to often used defend some obscure concept that we actually have ever had either.

[Lloyd90]

4 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

What is freedom? What is privacy? both are hollow words all to often used defend some obscure concept that we actually have ever had either.

Your mad if you think that.

 

This is one of the most free nations in the world. 
 

Go and slag off the Government etc online, nothing will happen to you. 
 

There’s still countries out there you’d be dragged out of your bed at 4am along side your whole family, taken into the street and shot in the head. 
 

We’ve got Chinese putting people on concentration camps due to their religious beliefs in this day and age. 
 

If your willing to sell out our freedoms for some deluded idea that “if it only keeps one child safe, it’ll be worth it!” then god help us. 
 

 

The sad fact is, the pedo following kids home from school in a van offering them sweets is a cliche ... as is the online predator which has been boosted by these online “pedo hunters” which is all just another version of a Jeremy Kyle type show. 
 

BY FAR most kids are sexually abused by family members or other trusted adults known to them and their families.  
 

Any sort of government monitoring of online predators wouldn’t even come close to putting a stop to child abuse. 

[udderlyoffroad]

1 minute ago, Vince Green said:

What is freedom? What is privacy? both are hollow words all to often used defend some obscure concept that we actually have ever had either.

Alright.

Take all your curtains down tonight.  You have nothing to hide, right? 

What some people clearly don't realise, is what they're suggesting would compromise every online transaction forever more.

Good solid encryption is a requirement for commerce on the internet to operate at all. - including Pigeon Watch.

Do not demand of the government even more powers.  The RIP act already gives them all they need, and more (covert surveillance for school catchment areas anyone?).  There simply isn't the political will to catch these people.  Maybe if people took an interest in their next Police and Crime Commissionner Election?  (Though the people of Bristol just might next time).

Maybe if we placed a legal requirement on parents to safeguard their children online, we might finally get them to take an interest in who they're talking to?

[chrisjpainter]

42 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Your mad if you think that.

 

This is one of the most free nations in the world. 
 

Go and slag off the Government etc online, nothing will happen to you. 
 

There’s still countries out there you’d be dragged out of your bed at 4am along side your whole family, taken into the street and shot in the head. 
 

We’ve got Chinese putting people on concentration camps due to their religious beliefs in this day and age. 
 

If your willing to sell out our freedoms for some deluded idea that “if it only keeps one child safe, it’ll be worth it!” then god help us. 
 

 

The sad fact is, the pedo following kids home from school in a van offering them sweets is a cliche ... as is the online predator which has been boosted by these online “pedo hunters” which is all just another version of a Jeremy Kyle type show. 
 

BY FAR most kids are sexually abused by family members or other trusted adults known to them and their families.  
 

Any sort of government monitoring of online predators wouldn’t even come close to putting a stop to child abuse. 

Yup. I had a really good friend who lived in some part of Africa (still friends, not in Africa!) and have another in the middle east. If we were communicating online (chat media/email), we'd have to drop letters out of certain phrases and avoid some topics altogether simply because of who may be tapping in. That's the reality of plenty of countries around the world and the watchwords are 'it's for your security'. No thanks. 

Sadly child abuse never needed the internet to flourish. Like you say it just needs the wrong family member to have the wrong access. Losing the internet might inhibit images being passed round, and it might stop a very very few getting access, but it'd be a drop in the ocean compared to the vast majority of people actually doing the abusing.

[bottletopbill]

Been through all of this with foster children with mum & dad touching the children and letting many other's be involved. Lots of police station visit's seen by doctor's and examined police video  of children for court. Police can check for men's sperm for many years on a wall or carpets with test;

Just because the two of the children said different stories  C P S said no further action but this was a daily event for them over many years. One was under four year's old and sister six year's old  and ask my wife if she  done oral . They were scarred of father Christmas yes they had men dressing as Santa.

[amateur]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

.....Maybe if we placed a legal requirement on parents to safeguard their children online, we might finally get them to take an interest in who they're talking to?

My daughter is clued up on computers and has fitted the appropriate software to the home and the kids computers to (hopefully) protect them.

Her school issued my 14 year old grandaughter with a school computer, and within a very short time she was using it to "talk" to what she thought was a 15 year old boy, but was, of course, a somewhat older man intent on corrupting her.

Fortunately this was caught early on, and now the school have dished out new "safe" computers.

We will see.

Ps Grand-daughter has now realised how dangerous the web can be

[12gauge82]

6 hours ago, mel b3 said:

I've just been watching BBC news .  One of the articles is regarding the rise in pedophiles targeting children (online) over the last twelve months , and in particular,  coercing children into abusing younger children , and siblings .  Why aren't these people being caught and sent to prison ?. I'm not very techy , but surely it can't be that difficult to backtrack from one computer to another , and get information from Internet companies, or , why can't Internet companies stop adults from contacting children in the first place ? , or why can't the government and Internet companies , stop pedophiles from setting up and running their websites ? . Surely  to god their must be an answer somewhere ?.

Unfortunately I think it's far simpler than a lot of answers so far, the fact is, if they acted or even locked up every pervert who gets their kicks from kids online, the criminal justice system would be completely overwhelmed. I've said it before, build more highly secure prisons and warehouse dangerous people like pedos cheaply so they never walk the streets again. 

[mel b3]

39 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Unfortunately I think it's far simpler than a lot of answers so far, the fact is, if they acted or even locked up every pervert who gets their kicks from kids online, the criminal justice system would be completely overwhelmed. I've said it before, build more highly secure prisons and warehouse dangerous people like pedos cheaply so they never walk the streets 

That would seem to be the very best answer to it all 👍.

I'm totally none tech savvy , and I was really shocked that nothing can be done about it .

[bottletopbill]

Worked as a youth worker for the local council they spent a huge amount of money on security on  all the clubs computers to protect the kid's and keep them safe. Waste of time the kid's cracked the system over a  few weeks'. You may think you have all the protection but have your kids got around it on i phone and i pad please keep checking all the time.

[Zapp]

The (assessed) figures here put into context the challenge faced by law enforcement nationally and internationally:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2019/05/14/uk-could-have-seven-times-more-paedophiles-than-previously-estimated/

There are more people offending in this way than there is capacity to investigate/arrest/prosecute in a timely way, and those at the upper end of the cyber capability spectrum are capable of evading identification for years.

It took the NCA 5 years, with the help of GCHQ, to identify Matthew Falder for example.  Whole international LE taskforce exist to track and take down forums containing the worst things imaginable only for them to reappear in days.

[Mungler]

I heard they had to get GCHQ onto a couple of the most prolific offenders - shows you what plod is up against. 

Nowadays Policing is more Star Trek than the Sweeney and if you’re entering the police force and you have Star Trek skills, well you will probably prefer the pay of the of Google or a games developer. 

[clangerman]

effort costs money this is pure lack of will by internet companies if they can’t come up with a solution shut them down nobody died from lack of tech when all we had was a village phone box 

[chrisjpainter]

1 hour ago, clangerman said:

effort costs money this is pure lack of will by internet companies if they can’t come up with a solution shut them down nobody died from lack of tech when all we had was a village phone box 

So what's your idea? Seriously, What is your solution that doesn't involve breaking a shed load of privacy laws and doesn't treat the innocent like criminals and is open to massive abuses of power?

[chrisjpainter]

Plenty of people died from a lack of tech when all you had was a village phone box, you're just not thinking it through. How many lives do you think are saved because you don't have to run to the end of the road to call an ambulance? How many lives have been saved at sea because of GPS? Tech has had a huge beneficial impact, including knowledge and understanding and business expansion and yes, plenty of lives have been saved. All this 'in my day..' talk really can be translated as 'in my day children were readily abused by family members and institutions but we only really cared when it was a stranger doing it, otherwise we kept quiet and didn't rock the boat' 

But there are inevitable negative consequences. if you have an open medium like the internet, it's going to be abused as well as used.