Fully vaccinated to dominate deaths - allegedly

[Dave-G]

I've been sent this by an anti vaxxer.  I'm not alleging there's any truth to it but would like to hear members thoughts please.

https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/05/12/uk-government-model-states-the-fully-vaccinated-will-dominate-deaths-in-3rd-wave-and-they-will-blame-children-and-unvaccinated-for-it/

And: https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/05/15/government-insider-says-uk-gov-has-a-plan-in-place-to-continue-lockdown-and-the-mainstream-media-are-in-on-it/

But I very much doubt MSM would play nice with it.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Dave-G

[chrisjpainter]

Oh for goodness sake. How many brain cells does one have to kill to start taking that tripe seriously? 

[Dave-G]

1 hour ago, chrisjpainter said:

Oh for goodness sake. How many brain cells does one have to kill to start taking that tripe seriously? 

I'm thinking the same but surely these peeps get their funding from those who will give that sort of "expose" some cred.

[Pangolin]

'Asking for a friend' haha

Edited May 17, 2021 by Pangolin

[stuartc44]

The resurgence is a result of some people (mostly children) being ineligible for vaccination; others choosing not to receive thevaccine; and others being vaccinated but not perfectly protected(including those who have only received one dose, rather than two).This means population immunity –which is the reason the waves modelled here start to shrink–is not achieved from vaccination without further infections.

32.The resurgence in both hospitalisations and deaths is dominated by those that have received two doses of the vaccine, comprising around 60% and 70% of the wave respectively. This can be attributed to the high levels of uptake in the most at-risk age groups, such that immunisation failures account for more serious illness than unvaccinated individuals.

Is this the 'tripe' you are refering to?

[JohnfromUK]

It is clear that whilst the vaccines aren't 100% effective - they are pretty highly effective against currently circulating strains.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9585899/Vaccines-prevent-97-cent-infections-Indian-variant-scientists-say.html

Most of the present infections are in non vaccinated people ....... perhaps not yet eligible (mainly the young) or those who have (for whatever reason) refused it.

The Daily Expose is well known for being (to put it politely) nonsense.  https://fullfact.org/online/daily-expose-3000-covid-deaths/

[Scully]

6 hours ago, Dave-G said:

I've been sent this by an anti vaxxer.  I'm not alleging there's any truth to it but would like to hear members thoughts please.

https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/05/12/uk-government-model-states-the-fully-vaccinated-will-dominate-deaths-in-3rd-wave-and-they-will-blame-children-and-unvaccinated-for-it/

And: https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/05/15/government-insider-says-uk-gov-has-a-plan-in-place-to-continue-lockdown-and-the-mainstream-media-are-in-on-it/

But I very much doubt MSM would play nice with it.

Maybe cut down on the amount of time you spend on social media? Seriously, it’s messing with your head. 

[stuartc44]

Better get in touch with Boris quickly, the document they are referring to, from which the piece I posted above is from, is from the government website!

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, stuartc44 said:

Better get in touch with Boris quickly, the document they are referring to, from which the piece I posted above is from, is from the government website!

Let us know how you get on, and what he said. Ta. 👍

[Mungler]

This is a card trick. It’s meaningless.

The most at risk (like always) are the elderly. I can’t be bothered to look up the stats again, but the last time I looked 80% of deaths were with the over 80’s.

As we know the majority of the over 80’s are fully jabbed up (because they’re not thick morons) and whilst the vaccine is a great idea and cuts transmission and reduces the chances of mortality, it can’t make the over 80’s bullet proof or guarantee them life eternal.

Other European states have reported that 20% of all Covid related deaths were cancer patients. Again, cancer is a disease of age and whilst cancer patients will have been fully vaccinated, Covid aside, older people with cancer need to treat every day as a gift.

I despair at some of the moronic claptrap still flying round the internet.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Mungler

[stuartc44]

So what's on the government website is claptrap? Where do you get your info from then?

[Mungler]

Just now, stuartc44 said:

So what's on the government website is claptrap? Where do you get your info from then?

What, specifically, has been taken from a government website - type it out for me and we’ll go from here.

 

[Walker570]

Get a life. It ain't a rehearsal Dave.    There is no doubt in my mind that all this 'social media nonesense has blown peoples minds. We have a friend who is a young healthy person but who sits at home shivering in fear because she lives on this social media ......oooops almost used a naught word there .... but you know what I mean.

There is little doubt that Boris is now trapped between doing what he should do and open the country back up and listening to the doom mongers in SAGE.  He really cannot win.

[Pangolin]

9 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Get a life. It ain't a rehearsal Dave.    There is no doubt in my mind that all this 'social media nonesense has blown peoples minds. We have a friend who is a young healthy person but who sits at home shivering in fear because she lives on this social media ......oooops almost used a naught word there .... but you know what I mean.

There is little doubt that Boris is now trapped between doing what he should do and open the country back up and listening to the doom mongers in SAGE.  He really cannot win.

Have you noticed that recently Boris and Hancock have been very slightly distancing themselves now and then from the opinons of sage. I think they know it'll be political suicide.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Pangolin

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, stuartc44 said:

Is this the 'tripe' you are refering to?

Doesn't seem particularly controversial to me...perhaps spell it out for us by providing the linky to the gov.uk site rather than copy+paste?

[Mungler]

5 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Doesn't seem particularly controversial to me...perhaps spell it out for us by providing the linky to the gov.uk site rather than copy+paste?

Indeed. I don’t understand what the fuss is about.

 

[stuartc44]

1 hour ago, stuartc44 said:

The resurgence is a result of some people (mostly children) being ineligible for vaccination; others choosing not to receive thevaccine; and others being vaccinated but not perfectly protected(including those who have only received one dose, rather than two).This means population immunity –which is the reason the waves modelled here start to shrink–is not achieved from vaccination without further infections.

32.The resurgence in both hospitalisations and deaths is dominated by those that have received two doses of the vaccine, comprising around 60% and 70% of the wave respectively. This can be attributed to the high levels of uptake in the most at-risk age groups, such that immunisation failures account for more serious illness than unvaccinated individuals.

Is this the 'tripe' you are refering to?

This, the point of the original post.

[stuartc44]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spi-m-o-summary-of-further-modelling-of-easing-restrictions-roadmap-step-2-31-march-2021

[ditchman]

all this fake news stuff is all part of lifes rich tapistry.................

believe it, and others...............................you and your kind die out

dont belive it and use your own judgement..........you and your kind get to live

 

Darwin at his best...

 

PS ..do you know where Darwin got his money from to live well and write....?.............he married the Wedgewood daughter  (of pottery fame )

[stuartc44]

So we agree that we shouldn't believe everything that is on the government website.

2 minutes ago, ditchman said:

all this fake news stuff is all part of lifes rich tapistry.................

believe it, and others...............................you and your kind die out

dont belive it and use your own judgement..........you and your kind get to live

 

Darwin at his best...

 

PS ..do you know where Darwin got his money from to live well and write....?.............he married the Wedgewood daughter  (of pottery fame )

 

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, stuartc44 said:

So we agree that we shouldn't believe everything that is on the government website.

 

I can't see the point you are trying to make.  The Gov't website and article says (in very simple terms);

• Vaccines work pretty well
• The take up has been high in the "old and vulnerable" (who were the first groups to be offered it)
• Despite vaccines, some of the "old and vulnerable" will still get ill, hospitalised or die
• Because so many have been vaccinated in the "old and vulnerable" - some of those will still get ill

I can't see any problem with any of that - it is what we have known all along - the old and vulnerable are most at risk, the risk of getting ill/seriously ill is reduced by having a vaccine, but you may still get ill - and that could be serious.  The old and vulnerable will still be a big factor in hospital occupancy (nothing new there either).

[chrisjpainter]

7 hours ago, Dave-G said:

I'm thinking the same but surely these peeps get their funding from those who will give that sort of "expose" some cred.

An idiot can be rich and an idiot at the same time! But so can a lot of disaffected, mislead people be who have been left with no support, no education, little identity and a lot of desperation. Conspiracy theorism gorges on that smorgasbord, as it gives them something to cling to that's beyond the rational, and vindicates their hiding from opinions that could successfully refute their own. And conspiracy theorists (and that's what anti vaxxers are) rely on an ability to move the goalposts to protect themselves from any kind of day of reckoning. And if you can't be proved wrong, that makes you believe it all the more. Added to their incessant future scaping and it's very difficult to reason with them. it's no coincidence that this sort of nonsense is coming just as lockdown measures are easing. For many anti-vaxxer/covid conspiracy theorists, that's bad news, because it makes all the talk about the government wanting to keep us penned in and controlled look a bit silly. So they move the goalposts. 'A third wave's coming and it will be blamed on the children! vaccinated people are going to dominate the death toll! we have [heavily doctored] evidence!' So everyone who believes it has some new false dawn to pin their righteousness to. It's really not very many moves beyond wearing an A board and saying 'The End is nigh!' You just change when the 'nigh' is and if changing the when doesn't work, change the what. We saw exactly the same with Donald Trump's more loony followers. 'He'll be carried to power by the courts! Okay, well not the courts, but the Supremes! Okay, not the Supremes, but when we storm the Capitol! Okay, not when we stormed the Capitol, but on Inauguration Day! Oh, we didn't mean THAT Inauguration Day, we meant the real one on the 4th March...'

If you read the actual report that this trifle sponge-brained writer is referring to, it's clear what the premises are: Firstly that any future infection wave will be spearheaded by groups that are not vaccinated, the largest of which is the children. That's not blaming kids, that's a demonstration of the efficacy of vaccines at limiting a spread. It's not as sexy and it doesn't play well with the narrative of 'vaccines be bad', so you change it and make it emotive-based, not fact based. WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

Secondly, that claptrap about the vaccinated dominating deaths. Has the numpty really got that bad a grasp of maths? Which demographic has, in both waves, seen the highest hospitalisations and the highest fatalities? The vulnerable (elderly, pre-existing health conditions and so on). That's not going to change if a third wave hits. But that group is also 90%+ vaccinated. So inevitably hospitalisations are going to be dominated by people who've been doubled vaccinated, because they're still at a much higher risk, especially than those others who are vaccinated, but still more vulnerable to a severe Covid-19 infection than those of non vulnerable groups who aren't vaccinated - who are in the tiny minority anyway. The report explains all this, but that got edited out, because it didn't fit the writer's agenda. Vaccines work on an individual basis, but from the unifying principle that everyone is at least as protected having a vaccine as they would be without it - and in most cases a lot better off. So a vulnerable person might go from fatal symptoms to severe, or from severe to moderate...or in small cases have no effect - or not enough of an effect to avoid hospitalisation/death. But the numbers of people who are vaccinated are so high and the numbers who aren't(withing eligible groups) are so low, that of course the hospitals are going to be dominated by double vaccinated people - it's just that it's much less likely the hospitals will be so in danger of being overwhelmed. The report makes this explicitly clear. 

[clangerman]

think more are going to die due to lack of treatment from the massive waiting lists nobody wants to mention than anything else 

[stuartc44]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I can't see the point you are trying to make.  The Gov't website and article says (in very simple terms);

• Vaccines work pretty well
• The take up has been high in the "old and vulnerable" (who were the first groups to be offered it)
• Despite vaccines, some of the "old and vulnerable" will still get ill, hospitalised or die
• Because so many have been vaccinated in the "old and vulnerable" - some of those will still get ill

I can't see any problem with any of that - it is what we have known all along - the old and vulnerable are most at risk, the risk of getting ill/seriously ill is reduced by having a vaccine, but you may still get ill - and that could be serious.  The old and vulnerable will still be a big factor in hospital occupancy (nothing new there either).

It says what the original post is referring to, read more.

[nic]

but the anti coaxers are right, all of the true believers are just waiting on the grassy knoll for the 3rd man to come from the film set of the fake moon landing and lead us all to the heart of the government bunker where world president Gates is waiting.... the doors will be open, as they only lock automatically when the chip implant from the jab comes near!

 

🙂