Taking a friend clay shooting

[Minky]

After reading the firearms guidance notes .... Authorised lending and possession of firearms for hunting etc  6.18 Section 11A of the 1968 Act

And being quite confused ..... who wouldn't be.... anyone got an opinion as to whether I can take a friend who hasn't got a gun or certificate clay pigeon shooting .. ps I will contact an FEO about this. But someone may have knowledge or have done this 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Speak to the ground before hand, you will be responsible for your guest and how he behaves.

We all started somewhere.

[humperdingle]

You’d need to check with the clay ground that they satisfy the section 11A criteria.

[Fellside]

I’ve always been reliably informed that a cert’ holder can supervise a non cert’ holder - and the former is responsible for safe conduct etc. 

I’ve never known a shooting ground object to this - in my area anyway. Sometimes they prefer that a supervised novice uses the beginner stand if the ground is busy. 

[Lloyd90]

18 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I’ve always been reliably informed that a cert’ holder can supervise a non cert’ holder - and the former is responsible for safe conduct etc. 

I’ve never known a shooting ground object to this - in my area anyway. Sometimes they prefer that a supervised novice uses the beginner stand if the ground is busy. 

 

Ian Coley's near Gloucester is cert holders only. I think Lady Wood's is as well. 

 

Mendip down Somerset is a free for all. They don't seem bothered. 

 

The straw bale sunday clubs that are not commercial shoots out to make a profit are also very relaxed and I don't think ever asked to see my cert unless I wanted to buy carts on the ground.

 

Speak to the venue and ask permission if in doubt. Saves a drive and being turned away. 

[Fellside]

13 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Ian Coley's near Gloucester is cert holders only. I think Lady Wood's is as well. 

 

Mendip down Somerset is a free for all. They don't seem bothered. 

 

The straw bale sunday clubs that are not commercial shoots out to make a profit are also very relaxed and I don't think ever asked to see my cert unless I wanted to buy carts on the ground.

 

Speak to the venue and ask permission if in doubt. Saves a drive and being turned away. 

There’s always an exception somewhere I suppose. I’m glad they are the exception rather than the rule. I think most people are introduced to the sport via a friend - a shame for this to be excluded. 

 

[HantsRob]

1 hour ago, Minky said:

After reading the firearms guidance notes .... Authorised lending and possession of firearms for hunting etc  6.18 Section 11A of the 1968 Act

And being quite confused ..... who wouldn't be.... anyone got an opinion as to whether I can take a friend who hasn't got a gun or certificate clay pigeon shooting .. ps I will contact an FEO about this. But someone may have knowledge or have done this 

I'm not entirely sure what is confusing, as the legislation is pretty clear and concise.

Firearms Act 1968 (legislation.gov.uk)

That's the section you're on. Now, keep reading through the legislation to section 11(6) and come away from 11(A):

Firearms Act 1968 (legislation.gov.uk)

"A person may, without holding a shot gun certificate, use a shot gun at a time and place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the chief officer of police for the area in which that place is situated."

Lets just be clear that you were on the right track, however what you need to ensure is the clay ground you're wanting to take your friend has an 11(6) exemption. It would be safe to say any clay ground that does lessons will have this exemption.

But, there are some stipulations. Firstly, if the person is a "prohibited person" (section 21) then they are not allowed. Also the safety and security of the firearm lays with the person who owns or is in charge of the gun.

Ask the clay ground. If you're shooting birds on private land you'd still need to check for 11(6) exemption. 

 

I hope that helps?

 

edit to add: This of course means section 2 shotguns, aka SGC shotguns. It doesn't allow for FAC ones AFAIK under 11(6).

Edited February 17, 2022 by HantsRob

[HantsRob]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Speak to the ground before hand, you will be responsible for your guest and how he behaves.

We all started somewhere.

This is about as sensible as it gets. 

We have all cringed at the one guy in full camo clothing with his semi auto taking a group of 6 mates around and causing mess and mayhem. 

[Lloyd90]

14 minutes ago, Fellside said:

There’s always an exception somewhere I suppose. I’m glad they are the exception rather than the rule. I think most people are introduced to the sport via a friend - a shame for this to be excluded. 

 

 

Those grounds will take new shooters and non FAC holders but they have to book on to be accompanied by an instructor. 

 

To be fair, as has been mentioned on here in the past, some of the silly stuff you see, like 10+ blokes messing about with a pump shotgun taking turns firing from the hip or something else silly is normally at hay bale shoots. 

To be fair there's a time and a place for that sort of messing about fun... and as long as it's safe and sensible enough crack on  lol, but I can see why some grounds, especially commercial ones take a more serious approach. 

[Minky]

Thanks to everyone who have replied.  The return info has been useful.  

[Minky]

56 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

I'm not entirely sure what is confusing, as the legislation is pretty clear and concise.

Firearms Act 1968 (legislation.gov.uk)

That's the section you're on. Now, keep reading through the legislation to section 11(6) and come away from 11(A):

Firearms Act 1968 (legislation.gov.uk)

"A person may, without holding a shot gun certificate, use a shot gun at a time and place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the chief officer of police for the area in which that place is situated."

Lets just be clear that you were on the right track, however what you need to ensure is the clay ground you're wanting to take your friend has an 11(6) exemption. It would be safe to say any clay ground that does lessons will have this exemption.

But, there are some stipulations. Firstly, if the person is a "prohibited person" (section 21) then they are not allowed. Also the safety and security of the firearm lays with the person who owns or is in charge of the gun.

Ask the clay ground. If you're shooting birds on private land you'd still need to check for 11(6) exemption. 

 

I hope that helps?

 

edit to add: This of course means section 2 shotguns, aka SGC shotguns. It doesn't allow for FAC ones AFAIK under 11(6).

What exactly is the 11 (6) exemption.  I did read it but I didn't see anything about that for the shooting ground site.  This document may be concise and clear IF you are using it all the time or you are a legal geek that understands how this is written. For most mortals it is gobledy gook  kind of some dodgy small print confusion document.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

A Section 11 (6) allows a ground to host shooters who do not have SGCs.

[HantsRob]

9 hours ago, Minky said:

What exactly is the 11 (6) exemption.  I did read it but I didn't see anything about that for the shooting ground site.  This document may be concise and clear IF you are using it all the time or you are a legal geek that understands how this is written. For most mortals it is gobledy gook  kind of some dodgy small print confusion document.

What TC said. But, I will diversify a little to hopefully make it a little clearer.

Any area of private land can be given 11(6) authority by the chief constable (and power may be delegated to another, such as licencing manager). 

That's to say.... any private estate, any piece of privately owned land, or any bit of land bought with the intention of being a clay ground or wild bird shooting ground. This may come with other caveats, such as businesses will need to get approval from the council on top. The police will also look at the size of land, public rights of access/footpaths etc.

Hopefully that helps?

[Minky]

Well I  don't know about helping BUT it has certainly educated me a bit.  I know several blokes who own land and quite often invite others round to shoot clays or whatever on their ground and no one has ever said anything about said regulations. I suppose that like a lot of things that are done until the residue hits the fan.   Thanks for the brain food.  ? Are there laws/regulations forbidding pigeons flying overhead across the range when clays are being shot on a wet Wednesdays afternoon. ?  Under section (b) para 2 .? 

[Fellside]

10 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Those grounds will take new shooters and non FAC holders but they have to book on to be accompanied by an instructor. 

 

To be fair, as has been mentioned on here in the past, some of the silly stuff you see, like 10+ blokes messing about with a pump shotgun taking turns firing from the hip or something else silly is normally at hay bale shoots. 

To be fair there's a time and a place for that sort of messing about fun... and as long as it's safe and sensible enough crack on  lol, but I can see why some grounds, especially commercial ones take a more serious approach. 

Never seen the silly stuff so far - not saying it doesn’t happen.  A few collectors messing about with muzzle loaders - taking ages on a stand with a queue behind them…..?! Slightly annoying but not dangerous. 

For those grounds that don’t allow SGC supervision - nice way to increase / capture £ via coaches (!).

I suppose in essence the OP knows that he’s legally viable to supervise his friend - with a thumbs up from the ground. 

[Fellside]

Hi Minky,

They tend not to allow it as the ground (clays and stands etc.) are set up to be safe. Anything presenting in an alternative direction would be deemed as potentially unsafe. This is what I’ve heard from ground owners/managers. I’m sure there must be a technical legal aspect ….. the pigeon clay ground amendment act or something…..🙂. Safety is the main consideration though. You would be shown the exit. 

[Stephen-H]

Most grounds seem ok with you keeping a eye on a friend having ago I only had a problem once at north wales shooting school where a friend was told he would have to have a safety lesson at £30-35 quid before he could shoot with me.

[hod]

Cluny Clays and Bisley at Braidwood both allow a non cert holder to shoot while supervised by a certificate holder. 

[Scully]

Can’t say I’ve ever had a problem at any ground I’ve taken someone to, and if someone told me I needed the company of a paid instructor I’d go elsewhere. Plenty of grounds around. 

[Fellside]

57 minutes ago, Scully said:

Can’t say I’ve ever had a problem at any ground I’ve taken someone to, and if someone told me I needed the company of a paid instructor I’d go elsewhere. Plenty of grounds around. 

Indeed. 

[Vince Green]

Like everything the screws are tightened very slowly but always making things more difficult. My main club is sgc only and even then you have to have a check shoot with an instructor the first time you shoot before you are allowed out on your own

 

[Westley]

On 17/02/2022 at 22:57, HantsRob said:

This is about as sensible as it gets. 

We have all cringed at the one guy in full camo clothing with his semi auto taking a group of 6 mates around and causing mess and mayhem. 

I am afraid I do NOT cringe, but rather challenge them regarding their behaviour. Although, yes I am qualified to argue the toss, should the need arise, I feel that we ALL have a duty of ' Safety Officer'  as and when the need arises. How else are these people going to learn  ?

[HantsRob]

20 minutes ago, Westley said:

I am afraid I do NOT cringe, but rather challenge them regarding their behaviour. Although, yes I am qualified to argue the toss, should the need arise, I feel that we ALL have a duty of ' Safety Officer'  as and when the need arises. How else are these people going to learn  ?

What would you say as a safety officer to a group on a stand shooting a semi, where it's barriered off and they can't collect their empties? Or are a bit loud? Or are just taking a while on a stand as there's 6 of them?
If they aren't breaking club rules or waving the gun around, what exactly would you say to the group?

Hence the cringe. But happy to take tips on what you'd do

[Westley]

21 hours ago, HantsRob said:

What would you say as a safety officer to a group on a stand shooting a semi, where it's barriered off and they can't collect their empties? Or are a bit loud? Or are just taking a while on a stand as there's 6 of them?
If they aren't breaking club rules or waving the gun around, what exactly would you say to the group?

Hence the cringe. But happy to take tips on what you'd do

I did run a shooting ground for some 17 years and I would not suffer, or expect the other shooters to have to suffer, this sort of behaviour.  I would simply point out to them that 6, all shooting the same gun is not acceptable, due to the amount of time they are taking on each stand. However, if they were prepared to let other shooters 'shoot through' ( a bit like golf) and then resume their shooting, then I would be happy with that. As to the auto/cartridge problem, I use an auto due to shoulder neck problems but I carry a magnetic stick thing. This can recover about 75% of my used cases but the majority of cases that are littering shooting grounds come from break open guns and NOT auto's.

[Newbie to this]

10 minutes ago, Westley said:

I would simply point out to them that 6, all shooting the same gun is not acceptable, due to the amount of time they are taking on each stand.

Just out of curiosity, what if 6 were all using their own guns, the time spend on each stand would be almost exactly the same?

Edited February 21, 2022 by Newbie to this