Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, Weihrauch17 said:

They will be used as a lever to remove him.

I hope you are right, but I won't hold my breath.

[Dave-G]

Wondering if Boris signed up to Sweden and Finland knowing Turkey was intending to object to their entry to NATO.

I'm mindful of the fact that the Balkans are between us and Russia, and Russia would use that area by land or sea to get to us. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Dave-G

[Rewulf]

7 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Wondering if Boris signed up to Sweden and Finland knowing Turkey was intending to object to their entry to NATO.

I'm mindful of the fact that the Balkans are between us and Russia, and Russia would use that area by land or sea to get to us. 

I reckon if this whole situation has proved anything, its that the whole idea of Russia invading Europe is an impossibility, they can't even successfully take Ukraine, who spend £5billion a year on their armed forces. 

The combined NATO forces facing up to Russia spend over £1 trillion a year. 

Who is 'defending' against who? 

[Dave-G]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I reckon if this whole situation has proved anything, its that the whole idea of Russia invading Europe is an impossibility, they can't even successfully take Ukraine, who spend £5billion a year on their armed forces. 

The combined NATO forces facing up to Russia spend over £1 trillion a year. 

Who is 'defending' against who? 

Agreed, I'm also wondering if it's possibly the first crack in NATO unity developing - with potentially a couple more balking at the loss of their oil and gas. It's looking like Boris made a very shrewd move.

[Mice!]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

they can't even successfully take Ukraine, who spend £5billion a year on their armed forces

They might NORMALLY  spend that, but I wonder just how much has been handed over since this started?

1 hour ago, Dave-G said:

It's looking like Boris made a very shrewd move.

Behave,  you'll upset folk.

[oowee]

13 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Wondering if Boris signed up to Sweden and Finland knowing Turkey was intending to object to their entry to NATO.

I'm mindful of the fact that the Balkans are between us and Russia, and Russia would use that area by land or sea to get to us. 

Serbia has said no to EU sanctions.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

They might NORMALLY  spend that, but I wonder just how much has been handed over since this started?

Its a good question, how much has been 'given' and how much has been sold ?

Bear in mind that generally speaking, no one gets a free lunch, and Ukraine may have some difficulty with finances over the next few years, and it makes you wonder what kind of deals have been done ?
And then people have the audacity to dispute that this is a proxy war.

Turkey , for its part, is wondering who its real allies are , while it likes the NATO connection, and free trade with Europe and the US, its close neighbour is also important, for a variety of reasons.

[Mice!]

51 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Its a good question, how much has been 'given' and how much has been sold ?

Bear in mind that generally speaking, no one gets a free lunch, and Ukraine may have some difficulty with finances over the next few years, and it makes you wonder what kind of deals have been done ?
And then people have the audacity to dispute that this is a proxy war.

Turkey , for its part, is wondering who its real allies are , while it likes the NATO connection, and free trade with Europe and the US, its close neighbour is also important, for a variety of reasons.

Well given or traded everything gets paid for at some point, you could say that Europe is fighting Russia but the battle ground is just the Ukraine,  its going to wreck the Ukraine while Europe watches on, but that won't affect the leaders in other countries.

[Mungler]

19 hours ago, Rewulf said:

And then people have the audacity to dispute that this is a proxy war.

The term ‘proxy war’ is thrown around with abandon. 

An invaded sovereign nation asks other nations for help and support in repelling an aggressing invader that has and continues to commit the most awful atrocities on a daily basis, and support is forthcoming.

How is that a proxy war, precisely please?

[Rewulf]

25 minutes ago, Mungler said:

The term ‘proxy war’ is thrown around with abandon

As you have said repeatedly before, you seem very uncomfortable with the term, do you not agree there is such a thing? 

25 minutes ago, Mungler said:

How is that a proxy war, precisely please?

Because, for starters there wouldn't even have been an invasion without the US and EU meddling in Ukrainian affairs in the first place. 

Second, Ukraine wouldn't have lasted a week if NATO  hadn't armed them and trained them, but any concerns Russia had about another NATO country on their border were treated with scorn. 

Lastly, it stops being a proxy war when one of the other parties troops {the US or NATO} engage the other party {Russia} 

Notice how they have not let it get this far, and likely won't. 

Typical, common or garden proxy war. 

'proxy war

noun

noun: proxy war; plural noun: proxy wars

a war instigated by a major power which does not itself become involved.

"the end of the Cold War brought an end to many of the proxy wars through which the two sides struggled to exert their influence"'

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, so what's going to happen to the captured Ukraine solders taken back to Russia, I see what the general have said should happen and that's not looking good, 

[Newbie to this]

Have to love our media, the Ukrainians at the steel works didn't surrender they were rescued and taken to Russian held territory.

Sounds like surrender to me. Unless the Russians are actually there to help these people 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, so what's going to happen to the captured Ukraine solders taken back to Russia, I see what the general have said should happen and that's not looking good, 

They arent being taken to Russia, they are being taken to Russian controlled territory in Donbass where there will be a  prisoner swap most likely , but most of the soldiers left in the steelworks were injured in some way, some seriously.
I would think the first concern for the Russians is they dont let too many of them die, otherwise theyll be accused of murdering them, which is a strange concept when both sides are trying to murder each other most of the time ?

Western media is already saying that any Azov troops are likely to be treated badly, but any ill treatment of one side is liable to lead to repercussions on the other.

Either way , they are now political bargaining chips.

[Rob85]

Because they are azov troops it will give putin a way out of the war because he can now claim to have de-nazified part of Ukraine... a limited victory. Of course as part of the peace terms he will likely want to keep the land bridge from donbas to crimea as having mariupol also cuts a lot of Ukraine off from the black sea.

I don't think this is going to wash and Ukraine will want to step on the gas and start forcing Russia back further in the North and dare I say it maybe even a limited incursion into Russia itself? From what I've seen the major Russian supply lines come down from the North, along the border and into the southern regions. Why not make a limited incursion to cut the supplies off?

[oldypigeonpopper]

38 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

They arent being taken to Russia, they are being taken to Russian controlled territory in Donbass where there will be a  prisoner swap most likely , but most of the soldiers left in the steelworks were injured in some way, some seriously.
I would think the first concern for the Russians is they dont let too many of them die, otherwise theyll be accused of murdering them, which is a strange concept when both sides are trying to murder each other most of the time ?

Western media is already saying that any Azov troops are likely to be treated badly, but any ill treatment of one side is liable to lead to repercussions on the other.

Either way , they are now political bargaining chips.

Hello, ok but not Russia, it was what Putin's generals wanted to do to the Ukraine solders I thought was absolutely horrific

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

Because they are azov troops it will give putin a way out of the war because he can now claim to have de-nazified part of Ukraine... a limited victory.

The Azovs as a military force are done, even Zelensky didnt want them, and he allowed them to wiped out, solving the problem of an unruly force, that considered itself apart from central government.

10 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

Of course as part of the peace terms he will likely want to keep the land bridge from donbas to crimea as having mariupol also cuts a lot of Ukraine off from the black sea.

Quite possibly, it just depends what resources are needed to keep control of these areas, it may not be worth it in the end ?

11 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

I don't think this is going to wash and Ukraine will want to step on the gas and start forcing Russia back further in the North and dare I say it maybe even a limited incursion into Russia itself? From what I've seen the major Russian supply lines come down from the North, along the border and into the southern regions. Why not make a limited incursion to cut the supplies off?

Ukraine has to be very careful what assets and weapons it uses in attacks on Russian soil, they have already used cruise missiles, and helicopter attacks, there are unconfirmed reports of special forces attacks.
All attacks so far have used Ukrainian or Russian sourced weaponry.
But when western weapons are used, the game changes.

6 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, ok but not Russia, it was what Putin's generals wanted to do to the Ukraine solders I thought was absolutely horrific

It wasnt Russian generals that said they should be executed, but members of Russias Duma (parliament)
Basically some MP gobbing off about issues they have no concept about, for political gain.
A bit like our defence secretary 

[Raja Clavata]

Being reported that not all the Azov regiment have / will leave the plant, suggestion that commanders holed up there may still be prepared to find to the end.

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Being reported that not all the Azov regiment have / will leave the plant, suggestion that commanders holed up there may still be prepared to find to the end.

Like I said , Azovs are a law unto themselves, the only reason the Russians havent bought the plant down on top of them is because theyre trying to preserve the infrastructure.
Either that or Ukraine are playing mind games , where the Russians are constantly fearing enemies popping up behind them ?
I will say , the pictures Ive seen of the troops coming out , they look pretty broken, but with a surprising amount of women with them, a credit to any army, to have lasted so long, under such intense pressure.
Hopefully the Russians will respect that.

[ditchman]

On 16/05/2022 at 23:53, Dave-G said:

Wondering if Boris signed up to Sweden and Finland knowing Turkey was intending to object to their entry to NATO.

I'm mindful of the fact that the Balkans are between us and Russia, and Russia would use that area by land or sea to get to us. 

Turkey has always wanted to join the EU ...but they have been turned down.....i think there is a deal going on here

alternate agenda and all that

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, ditchman said:

i think there is a deal going on here

alternate agenda and all that

There always is , us plebs only see whats  going on through their smoke and mirrors.

[Mungler]

11 hours ago, Rewulf said:

As you have said repeatedly before, you seem very uncomfortable with the term, do you not agree there is such a thing? 

Because, for starters there wouldn't even have been an invasion without the US and EU meddling in Ukrainian affairs in the first place. 

Second, Ukraine wouldn't have lasted a week if NATO  hadn't armed them and trained them, but any concerns Russia had about another NATO country on their border were treated with scorn. 

Lastly, it stops being a proxy war when one of the other parties troops {the US or NATO} engage the other party {Russia} 

Notice how they have not let it get this far, and likely won't. 

Typical, common or garden proxy war. 

'proxy war

noun

noun: proxy war; plural noun: proxy wars

a war instigated by a major power which does not itself become involved.

"the end of the Cold War brought an end to many of the proxy wars through which the two sides struggled to exert their influence"'

“instigated”

You are delusional if you think Russia’s invasion of the Ukraine was instigated by the west or that Russia took action / was obliged to take action by anything the West did or didn’t do.

Putin’s stated reasons for this war (Putin’s War) change each week. 

By your logic Putin can invade Finland, because Finland has dared to join NATO, and if anyone helps Finland it’s a proxy war eh? 

A true proxy war would be the West arming Ukraine and Ukraine invading Russia.

So, I continue to scoff at the Russian apologists use of the term ‘proxy war’

[oowee]

42 minutes ago, Mungler said:

“instigated”do.

 

Putin’s stated reasons for this war (Putin’s War) change each week. 

By your logic Putin can invade Finland, because Finland has dared to join NATO, and if anyone helps Finland it’s a proxy war eh? 

A true proxy war would be the West arming Ukraine and Ukraine invading Russia.

So, I continue to scoff at the Russian apologists use of the term ‘proxy war’

👍

[ditchman]

just keep an eye on the French...incase they get found out supplying missiles to Russia..........

[Mungler]

5 hours ago, ditchman said:

just keep an eye on the French...incase they get found out supplying missiles to Russia..........

All the remainers I know have gone a little quiet of recent. A remainer’s  love of Europe blinds to the Germans spending $1 billion a day on Russian energy (thereby directly financing the invasion of Ukraine and the continuation of the war) and the French fawning round Putin, in fear of French banks  collapsing under Russian debt default.

I’ve seen all sorts of apologies being offered up for the French and the Germans and no acknowledgement that Trump was right back in 2018, but…. they know. They know deep down that the European Union they so love and crave  is actually an oxymoron because no one plays by any rules, least of all the French and Germans when domestic issues at home dictate.

My blood runs cold now at the idea of being told what to do by Macron or Scholtz.

As an aside I can also see that the remainders are blaming inflation on Brexit, which is interesting given that inflationary pressures are global, worse in the US and flow from governments printing money with nothing behind that ‘paper’. I digress.

[Newbie to this]

31 minutes ago, Mungler said:

All the remainers I know have gone a little quiet of recent. A remainer’s  love of Europe blinds to the Germans spending $1 billion a day on Russian energy (thereby directly financing the invasion of Ukraine and the continuation of the war) and the French fawning round Putin, in fear of French banks  collapsing under Russian debt default.

I’ve seen all sorts of apologies being offered up for the French and the Germans and no acknowledgement that Trump was right back in 2018, but…. they know. They know deep down that the European Union they so love and crave  is actually an oxymoron because no one plays by any rules, least of all the French and Germans when domestic issues at home dictate.

My blood runs cold now at the idea of being told what to do by Macron or Scholtz.

As an aside I can also see that the remainders are blaming inflation on Brexit, which is interesting given that inflationary pressures are global, worse in the US and flow from governments printing money with nothing behind that ‘paper’. I digress.