Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Rewulf]

15 hours ago, Mungler said:

What has happened to Ukraine and in the Ukraine cannot be condoned, justified or explained away. It’s a black and white / good and evil moment.

No one is trying to condone or justify it, but to say it cant be explained, what does that even mean ?
Why did it happen then ?
Putin woke up one morning and though ' Mmm feeling evil , might invade Ukraine today' ?
There IS a reason, and the best that the west can come up with , 'Hes evil/mad, and he craves the glory days of the soviet union' That literally every Russian who lived in those times remembers with relief that they are long gone.

And to says its a black and white , good and evil moment, absolutely beggars belief, from someone I tend to agree with on most things.

15 hours ago, Mungler said:

I have read and researched too much about Russian atrocities to find any justification or rationalisation of rolling tanks over the border of a sovereign nation in mainland Europe and breaking every rule of the Geneva Convention to listen as to why Putin was justified / provoked / entitled to roll over a neighbour’s border.

Anyone attempting justification lends credence to the action of a murderous madman. 

That’s pretty much it really. 

Youve arrived at a conclusion, based on flawed intel and logic.
Witch trial mentality.

15 hours ago, Mungler said:

That avoids the point with a large amount of ‘whataboutery’.

No , you have avoided the point by calling it 'whataboutery'  
Its funny how black and white , good and evil doesnt apply , when we talk about the Middle Eastern 'adventures' of the west ?

15 hours ago, Mungler said:

And two words ‘Geneva Convention’ 

Dont be ridiculous.
The Geneva convention goes out the window, shortly after the first bullet gets fired.

[Mice!]

53 minutes ago, oowee said:

Step by step. Sanctions stay in place food prices soar, fuel is even more expensive, climate change targets, radiation fall out, a triumphant violent world leader with access to N weapons the list goes on. Why stop there if no one is bothered. We will all be paying for the 7m unproductive refugees. Keep nibbling away the occasional random murder, or border incursion and whilst no one cares lets get our Chinese mates to tackle Taiwan. 

See what you mean when it's put like that, I was thinking how does just the Ukraine losing bring us all down.

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, Mice! said:

So like a few have said, it's different because it's closer?

There has been ongoing conflict for the last 8 years so there has been aggression from both sides.

Its different because our media, prompted by our government paint it differently.
Donbass is around 2000 miles away, the same as Tripoli , Damascus and Gaza is 3000 miles, so its not really about distance.
The western media outlets, pre war , and now, have painted a picture that has quite rightly, tugged at the heartstrings .
War for the people of Ukraine has destroyed their lives , their country.
The same as war has destroyed the lives of Afghans, Libyans, Palestinians, Iraqis and Syrians.
The difference is , the aggressor/instigator in Ukraine is Russia, a western enemy.
Whereas , the Middle eastern countries, the instigator is the west , or a western 'friend'

Media manipulation/propaganda is not to be underestimated in its power to sway opinion, pull at those heart strings when the right moment applies.
This is why , besides a few reporters (who were more interested in the far right angle) covered the last years of the Donbass conflict, it simply wasnt relevant news for western appetites at that time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=War in Donbas (before 2022 invasion),-Main article%3A War&text=The overall number of confirmed,including non-combat military deaths.

3 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

Someone walks into a house in 'Bongo Bongo' land and machetes someone to death ... meh!

It happens to your neighbour ... an entirely different set of emotions follow.

It's just human nature ...  right?

You are correct up to an extent , but there is an element of self preservation within.
The next door neighbour getting murdered , makes one think 'That could have been me ' or 'Am I next ?'
Someone getting murdered 10 miles away and that feeling is somewhat relaxed.

But having empathy for someone in 'bongo bongo land' is not (for me) a meh ! moment.
That person had a life , that someone took away violently, and thats always a tragedy, its just not the kind of tragedy our media considers news sometimes ?

3 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Regarding middle east wars not being as 'concerning' to us in the west. Could it be that the west have largely relaxed religious hatred while 'they' clearly still feel their religion continues to be worth killing for?

Since the discovery of oil in the ME , western powers have manipulated those religious (and tribal)  differences, to their advantage, and the locals disadvantage.
Its a common theme practiced even further back.
Our Indian 'possessions' were gained through a little military might , and a lot of divide and conquer.
The American colonists used similar tactics on the natives.

There is also evidence that the ethnic and language divide in Ukraine has been manipulated to cause conflict, but this is either not reported at all , or dismissed as inconsequential.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Rewulf

[Mice!]

30 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Since the discovery of oil in the ME

Not just oil, minerals and metals, otherwise why would we care what goes on in Afghanistan,? Its a brutal place to live, with soaring temperatures in a harsh landscape then someone comes along telling them how to live? Or wants a pipeline to go through their farmland. 

I clearly don't agree with a lot that goes on out there, but I also probably wouldn't last 5 minutes as its a totally different way of life to what we know.

It was Africa,  then India, its always somewhere where the native population are in the way of extracting gold, oil, timber etc.

Ukraine is not a far removed place out the way which nobody is concerned about, they live in a similar way and culture to us, that's the only reason I see people getting so emotional about it. 

[Raja Clavata]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

No one is trying to condone or justify it, but to say it cant be explained, what does that even mean ?
Why did it happen then ?
Putin woke up one morning and though ' Mmm feeling evil , might invade Ukraine today' ?
There IS a reason, and the best that the west can come up with , 'Hes evil/mad, and he craves the glory days of the soviet union' That literally every Russian who lived in those times remembers with relief that they are long gone.

And to says its a black and white , good and evil moment, absolutely beggars belief, from someone I tend to agree with on most things.

Youve arrived at a conclusion, based on flawed intel and logic.
Witch trial mentality.

No , you have avoided the point by calling it 'whataboutery'  
Its funny how black and white , good and evil doesnt apply , when we talk about the Middle Eastern 'adventures' of the west ?

Dont be ridiculous.
The Geneva convention goes out the window, shortly after the first bullet gets fired.

Nailed it.

[Mungler]

15 hours ago, Rewulf said:

No one is trying to condone or justify it, but to say it cant be explained, what does that even mean ?
Why did it happen then ?
Putin woke up one morning and though ' Mmm feeling evil , might invade Ukraine today' ?
There IS a reason, and the best that the west can come up with , 'Hes evil/mad, and he craves the glory days of the soviet union' That literally every Russian who lived in those times remembers with relief that they are long gone.

And to says its a black and white , good and evil moment, absolutely beggars belief, from someone I tend to agree with on most things.

Youve arrived at a conclusion, based on flawed intel and logic.
Witch trial mentality.

No , you have avoided the point by calling it 'whataboutery'  
Its funny how black and white , good and evil doesnt apply , when we talk about the Middle Eastern 'adventures' of the west ?

Dont be ridiculous.
The Geneva convention goes out the window, shortly after the first bullet gets fired.

 

The intercepts from the soldiers mobile phones are very telling to me - they are contemporaneous and there are a lot of them being collected to document the war crimes. Those intercepts, in summary, show (1) early on the troops were told very little, then of (2) a training exercise, then (3) a special military operation against Nazis (4) then an invasion / war against Nazis. Now we’re on a mix of Nazis and a pre-emptive strike against NATO.

We’ve had a similarly wandering narrative from Putin.

Whilst I said right at the beginning that the Ukrainians can’t ultimately ‘win’ (they are up against a nuclear power with far far greater reserves of men and machinery) I think you have to accept that Russia’s invasion  of Ukraine has not gone well as well as the Russians might have hoped.

Indeed, it’s been a total and wholesale military and economic disaster for Russia with the current score sheet showing losses far outweighing any gains.

So, back to the black and white moment - none of this needed or had to happen and that’s the bottom line for me, and anything that follows is ‘on’ the invading force.

The Putin apologists only ‘counter’ is ‘what about Iraq?’

Indeed, what about Iraq? Two decades ago, different continent, entirely unconnected and only connected to Ukraine because apparently it’s a free pass now to invading a neighbour on a land grab.

And all the while the quickest end to this conflict is Russia withdrawing back over the border, not asking the Ukrainians to surrender or starving the Ukrainians of aid so that the Russians can get an easier and quicker victory (that like of argument is just mental).

 

 

 

[ditchman]

i think the only logical way this is going to end ......whilst the current Russian regime is in position...the Ukraine will end up like North/South Korea....a posturing stand-off.....what they are fighting for at the moment (although they dont know it ...is the lines of the DMZ).......

This will continue until a moderate Russian govt comes to power...which will come from within....dont pin your hopes any time soon....

[Rewulf]

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

 

The intercepts from the soldiers mobile phones are very telling to me - they are contemporaneous and there are a lot of them being collected to document the war crimes. Those intercepts, in summary, show (1) early on the troops were told very little, then of (2) a training exercise, then (3) a special military operation against Nazis (4) then an invasion / war against Nazis. Now we’re on a mix of Nazis and a pre-emptive strike against NATO.

Broadly agree, but unless all Russian troops are thick as planks, then I'm pretty sure they knew 1. what was going to happen, 2 what country they were in , and 3 and 4 , and why they were doing it.

Or , they are just mindless drones under the thrall of God emperor pootin. 

We’ve had a similarly wandering narrative from Putin.

Whilst I said right at the beginning that the Ukrainians can’t ultimately ‘win’ (they are up against a nuclear power with far far greater reserves of men and machinery) I think you have to accept that Russia’s invasion  of Ukraine has not gone well as well as the Russians might have hoped.

Agreed 100 %

Indeed, it’s been a total and wholesale military and economic disaster for Russia with the current score sheet showing losses far outweighing any gains.

Agreed, but it really depends how Russia quantifies losses and gains, I think the economic and reputational damage are far worse than personally and materiel.

So, back to the black and white moment - none of this needed or had to happen and that’s the bottom line for me, and anything that follows is ‘on’ the invading force.

Agreed.

The Putin apologists only ‘counter’ is ‘what about Iraq?’

Indeed, what about Iraq? Two decades ago, different continent, entirely unconnected and only connected to Ukraine because apparently it’s a free pass now to invading a neighbour on a land grab.

No one is saying it's a free pass at all, or justification, or apologising for putin !

But it makes us look totally hypocritical , when we have done just what Russia is doing now, invade another country on a made up pretext, multiple times !

And all the while the quickest end to this conflict is Russia withdrawing back over the border, not asking the Ukrainians to surrender or starving the Ukrainians of aid so that the Russians can get an easier and quicker victory (that like of argument is just mental).

Again no one is saying we should just leave them, but Russia isn't going to just pull out either , so do we just carry on , keep feeding weapons in there, while Ukraine becomes a blood soaked wasteland ?

 

 

 

I'll ask again , where are the calls for peace, where are the intermediaries,  where are the UN ?

The US defence sec has publicly stated they want the war to continue, as it weakens Russia, and that's in our interests.

But it's definitely not a proxy war !

Edited May 21, 2022 by Rewulf

[Dave-G]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I'll ask again , where are the calls for peace, where are the intermediaries,  where are the UN ?

The US defence sec has publicly stated they want the war to continue, as it weakens Russia, and that's in our interests.

But it's definitely not a proxy war !

On a purely mercenary war basis I guess it'd be useful to NATO and Europe in general for Russia to run out of bombs and missiles etc somewhere other than our backyard. The loss of energy and food is a problem for the rest of us though.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Dave-G

[mick miller]

45 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

On a purely mercenary war basis I guess it'd be useful to NATO and Europe in general for Russia to run out of bombs and missiles etc somewhere other than our backyard. The loss of energy and food is a problem for the rest of us though.

Yeah, they're not though. If anything they're using them incredibly sparingly. If flattening Ukraine was the intention it would have already happened. The idea that Russia is 'running out of missiles' is frankly western media codswallop, sadly the reportage has been woefully biased from the get go. Nothing new there. 

[ditchman]

Right ...its not often i have to put my tin hat on....so im nailing my colours to the mast on this one....proberly get banned for airing this

i (me personaly) have spent many years in the UK govt aid sector (central africa)...........everybody is moaning about food shortages and famine....particular when most of the food surplus goes to underdeveloped countries ie: africa......which is appalling...considering the trillions of US $ and british £'s that have been thrown their way......to what end ..???

well if africa are demanding help and giving out the old "help us we are dying" routine....i say "tough ****".....

africa is potencially the most productive continent on earth....they have had 100's of years to get their act right...to what end eh.......they are bloody useless....people bang on about coruption in the western world ........i can tell you now ...THAT AINT NOTHING.....go to africa and see how things work over there.....the land is proberly the most fertile in the world ..they can grow 3 crops / year...they have all the natural resoures you want.....colbalt / lithium/ hydro power / coal/ iron ore/gold /diamonds/ emeralds./sun/wind/...it goes on...on my last contract there i took a few beers down to a river bed and spent a few hours picking  gold out of the dry river bed...i bought that back and melted it down and made 3 big pendants each weighing 1 1/2oz each one ..gave one to my wife one to my daughter and one to my friends daughter...not bad for 3 hours work and a couple of beers....

its about time africa was looked at .........and im talking forced development....HHmmmmm....yeah you know what i mean....time for the old slash and burn culture to go....they better get their act together soon otherwise it will happen ...geo-politicle events will make it happen

 

Africa....this is your final warning.......

( i shall go and have another sherry now)

[mellors]

12 minutes ago, ditchman said:

Right ...its not often i have to put my tin hat on....so im nailing my colours to the mast on this one....proberly get banned for airing this

i (me personaly) have spent many years in the UK govt aid sector (central africa)...........everybody is moaning about food shortages and famine....particular when most of the food surplus goes to underdeveloped countries ie: africa......which is appalling...considering the trillions of US $ and british £'s that have been thrown their way......to what end ..???

well if africa are demanding help and giving out the old "help us we are dying" routine....i say "tough ****".....

africa is potencially the most productive continent on earth....they have had 100's of years to get their act right...to what end eh.......they are bloody useless....people bang on about coruption in the western world ........i can tell you now ...THAT AINT NOTHING.....go to africa and see how things work over there.....the land is proberly the most fertile in the world ..they can grow 3 crops / year...they have all the natural resoures you want.....colbalt / lithium/ hydro power / coal/ iron ore/gold /diamonds/ emeralds./sun/wind/...it goes on...on my last contract there i took a few beers down to a river bed and spent a few hours picking  gold out of the dry river bed...i bought that back and melted it down and made 3 big pendants each weighing 1 1/2oz each one ..gave one to my wife one to my daughter and one to my friends daughter...not bad for 3 hours work and a couple of beers....

its about time africa was looked at .........and im talking forced development....HHmmmmm....yeah you know what i mean....time for the old slash and burn culture to go....they better get their act together soon otherwise it will happen ...geo-politicle events will make it happen

 

Africa....this is your final warning.......

( i shall go and have another sherry now)

Well said. 

Often wonder where all the money and aid goes. Yet all the time the charities bombard the tele adds asking for more. I agree people are in a bad place over there but its so disjointed and so many so called charities and the wages they pay themselves is wrong. 

Bit early for sherry though. 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I'll ask again , where are the calls for peace, where are the intermediaries,  where are the UN ?

The US defence sec has publicly stated they want the war to continue, as it weakens Russia, and that's in our interests.

But it's definitely not a proxy war !

We’re not a million miles apart save for ‘proxy war’ and ‘what about Iraq’ and now ‘why aren’t we doing more to negotiate’.

I’ve said my piece on proxy war and Iraq - by dictionary definition it’s not a proxy war and as for Iraq, aside from that being two decades ago, ‘so what’ it hasn’t set a new moral or legal benchmark for invading a neighbour.

My beef is with the whiff of ‘we have to look to why Putin has done this’ and ‘we should be negotiating with him’.

Starting with ‘negotiation’, yes all wars end round a table. However, history has taught us that there are some people you can’t negotiate with. We all know the history of the Second World War and Japan’s refusal to negotiate or surrender notwithstanding that on any analysis it was over for them. Having gone island to island and not being prepared to deal with Japan on a similar basis one yard at a time the Yanks forced them to the table with 2 very good reasons to pack it in.

I agree though that the door to negotiation should always remain open but you can’t reason with the unreasonable and you can just wear yourself out trying. To suggest that a negotiated settlement should have been reached by now and that the lack of a negotiated settlement is somehow the fault of everyone but Putin is at odds with the reality of the man and what the man has chosen to do, has done and is prepared to perpetuate.

As to Putin’s reasoning, it’s a land grab pure and simple and nothing to do with NATO or Nazis. The constant ‘we should understand why he has felt the need to…’ undermines the reality. 

When Hitler rolled tanks into Poland I am sure there were people at the time asking that the world understand his reasoning, and to excuse it because of historic imperialism on the part of Britain (“yes he’s rolled into Poland but ‘what about’ Britain, the empire and Africa and India etc”), or they excused his actions reciting the fear Germany had of its neighbours following the First World War. As for negotiating with Hitler? Well, Chamberlain has gone down in history for his conviction and failure for that.

 

[Gerry78]

2 minutes ago, Mungler said:

We’re not a million miles apart save for ‘proxy war’ and ‘what about Iraq’ and now ‘why aren’t we doing more to negotiate’.

I’ve said my piece on proxy war and Iraq - by dictionary definition it’s not a proxy war and as for Iraq, aside from that being two decades ago, ‘so what’ it hasn’t set a new moral or legal benchmark for invading a neighbour.

My beef is with the whiff of ‘we have to look to why Putin has done this’ and ‘we should be negotiating with him’.

Starting with ‘negotiation’, yes all wars end round a table. However, history has taught us that there are some people you can’t negotiate with. We all know the history of the Second World War and Japan’s refusal to negotiate or surrender notwithstanding that on any analysis it was over for them. Having gone island to island and not being prepared to deal with Japan on a similar basis one yard at a time the Yanks forced them to the table with 2 very good reasons to pack it in.

I agree though that the door to negotiation should always remain open but you can’t reason with the unreasonable and you can just wear yourself out trying. To suggest that a negotiated settlement should have been reached by now and that the lack of a negotiated settlement is somehow the fault of everyone but Putin is at odds with the reality of the man and what the man has chosen to do, has done and is prepared to perpetuate.

As to Putin’s reasoning, it’s a land grab pure and simple and nothing to do with NATO or Nazis. The constant ‘we should understand why he has felt the need to…’ undermines the reality. 

When Hitler rolled tanks into Poland I am sure there were people at the time asking that the world understand his reasoning, and to excuse it because of historic imperialism on the part of Britain (“yes he’s rolled into Poland but ‘what about’ Britain, the empire and Africa and India etc”), or they excused his actions reciting the fear Germany had of its neighbours following the First World War. As for negotiating with Hitler? Well, Chamberlain has gone down in history for his conviction and failure for that.

 

Strange you said that( Iraq was 2 decades ago so what) then bring up japan being nuked and hitler invading Poland which was WW2 so what’s your point on Iraq because it was 20 years ago it shouldn’t matter Brings me back to my original post regarding the West being hypocrites  YES the west are the only coalition in the history of earth to use nuclear weapons on a rival nation Hiroshima Nagasaki as we all know Regarding negotiations with Putin did the West try that with the countries in the Middle East they invaded No there negotiations was Try and bomb them of the map I think you forget that Iraq had weapons of mass Destruction according to Bush and Blair which was total bull**** 

[Gerry78]

49 minutes ago, ditchman said:

Right ...its not often i have to put my tin hat on....so im nailing my colours to the mast on this one....proberly get banned for airing this

i (me personaly) have spent many years in the UK govt aid sector (central africa)...........everybody is moaning about food shortages and famine....particular when most of the food surplus goes to underdeveloped countries ie: africa......which is appalling...considering the trillions of US $ and british £'s that have been thrown their way......to what end ..???

well if africa are demanding help and giving out the old "help us we are dying" routine....i say "tough ****".....

africa is potencially the most productive continent on earth....they have had 100's of years to get their act right...to what end eh.......they are bloody useless....people bang on about coruption in the western world ........i can tell you now ...THAT AINT NOTHING.....go to africa and see how things work over there.....the land is proberly the most fertile in the world ..they can grow 3 crops / year...they have all the natural resoures you want.....colbalt / lithium/ hydro power / coal/ iron ore/gold /diamonds/ emeralds./sun/wind/...it goes on...on my last contract there i took a few beers down to a river bed and spent a few hours picking  gold out of the dry river bed...i bought that back and melted it down and made 3 big pendants each weighing 1 1/2oz each one ..gave one to my wife one to my daughter and one to my friends daughter...not bad for 3 hours work and a couple of beers....

its about time africa was looked at .........and im talking forced development....HHmmmmm....yeah you know what i mean....time for the old slash and burn culture to go....they better get their act together soon otherwise it will happen ...geo-politicle events will make it happen

 

Africa....this is your final warning.......

( i shall go and have another sherry now)

Ditchman you sound like a educated man who has experience of living and working in Africa I agree that the west has pumped huge amounts of money into that continent and a lot of there governments have taken the money and not spread there wealths But the west has also over the century’s has taken a lot out of Africa Are we to forget the century’s of white European nations putting the African people in Chains and shipping them across the Atlantic for the slave Trade ??????

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Mungler said:

My beef is with the whiff of ‘we have to look to why Putin has done this’ and ‘we should be negotiating with him’.

Starting with ‘negotiation’, yes all wars end round a table. However, history has taught us that there are some people you can’t negotiate with. We all know the history of the Second World War and Japan’s refusal to negotiate or surrender notwithstanding that on any analysis it was over for them. Having gone island to island and not being prepared to deal with Japan on a similar basis one yard at a time the Yanks forced them to the table with 2 very good reasons to pack it in.

All good points, but the comparison is weak ?
Are we saying Russia should be forced to the negotiating table with extreme force, or are we saying Ukraine should be forced by Russia.
Or we can just let it all grind on , with more destruction and loss of life, which suits NATO, but not so much Ukraine or Russia?
We in the west keep talking about Ukraine winning ,and kicking Russia back to its original borders, this is a pipe dream.
If you were Russia, or Ukraine , you would WANT to end this , neither are winning anything.

Can we at least accept these simple truths ?

 

12 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I agree though that the door to negotiation should always remain open but you can’t reason with the unreasonable and you can just wear yourself out trying. To suggest that a negotiated settlement should have been reached by now and that the lack of a negotiated settlement is somehow the fault of everyone but Putin is at odds with the reality of the man and what the man has chosen to do, has done and is prepared to perpetuate.

As to Putin’s reasoning, it’s a land grab pure and simple and nothing to do with NATO or Nazis. The constant ‘we should understand why he has felt the need to…’ undermines the reality. 

This is the major issue, we have built ourselves a scenario, a picture of a regime, ruled by a mad man, completely unreasonable, a waste of time negotiating with, so we have been lead to believe there is NO path to a negotiated settlement, AND there was no way of avoiding the invasion.
Once again, the only winner of that scenario is the US/NATO, they get to remove an oil power from the map and weaken a strong adversary.
You will roll your eyes, but this too is a fact.

 

18 minutes ago, Mungler said:

When Hitler rolled tanks into Poland I am sure there were people at the time asking that the world understand his reasoning, and to excuse it because of historic imperialism on the part of Britain (“yes he’s rolled into Poland but ‘what about’ Britain, the empire and Africa and India etc”), or they excused his actions reciting the fear Germany had of its neighbours following the First World War. As for negotiating with Hitler? Well, Chamberlain has gone down in history for his conviction and failure for that.

The political and cultural map of Europe needs considerable study before you can make sweeping statements like the above.
The re drawing of borders after WW1 , was a direct influence on the territorial aspirations of Germany in the 30s, Britain and France gave Hitler the Sudetenland , because they couldnt physically stop him retaking what had been taken from Germany 20 years previously, they drew the line at Poland, but the die was cast as soon as Germany saw how weak willed Europes leaders were.*
Interestingly enough , the soviets got a similar raw deal after WW1, and were more than happy to retake what they believed was theirs.
Im not saying its right, but they believed it was, and they were willing to pay for it in blood.

*Everything changes, but everything also stays the same.

[JohnfromUK]

47 minutes ago, ditchman said:

Africa....this is your final warning.......

You are right.

I have known 3 separate families who farmed hugely productively in Rhodesia (as it was then under Ian Smith and before) and ran large productive farms where all were well looked after and by all accounts 'happy'.  The country was prosperous.  It is true that the ruling 'whites' lived very well, but actually most people lived comfortably with plenty of food and reasonable (for Africa) public services.

Then came "Independence", Zimbabwe and African leadership in the hands of Comrade Mugabe.  That brought internal factional conflict, massive corruption and land grabs from the successful farmers.  Now Zimbabwe is an economic basket case and agricultural production is a fraction of what it once was. 

[Mungler]

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

All good points, but the comparison is weak ?
Are we saying Russia should be forced to the negotiating table with extreme force, or are we saying Ukraine should be forced by Russia.
Or we can just let it all grind on , with more destruction and loss of life, which suits NATO, but not so much Ukraine or Russia?
We in the west keep talking about Ukraine winning ,and kicking Russia back to its original borders, this is a pipe dream.
If you were Russia, or Ukraine , you would WANT to end this , neither are winning anything.

Can we at least accept these simple truths ?

 

This is the major issue, we have built ourselves a scenario, a picture of a regime, ruled by a mad man, completely unreasonable, a waste of time negotiating with, so we have been lead to believe there is NO path to a negotiated settlement, AND there was no way of avoiding the invasion.
Once again, the only winner of that scenario is the US/NATO, they get to remove an oil power from the map and weaken a strong adversary.
You will roll your eyes, but this too is a fact.

 

The political and cultural map of Europe needs considerable study before you can make sweeping statements like the above.
The re drawing of borders after WW1 , was a direct influence on the territorial aspirations of Germany in the 30s, Britain and France gave Hitler the Sudetenland , because they couldnt physically stop him retaking what had been taken from Germany 20 years previously, they drew the line at Poland, but the die was cast as soon as Germany saw how weak willed Europes leaders were.*
Interestingly enough , the soviets got a similar raw deal after WW1, and were more than happy to retake what they believed was theirs.
Im not saying its right, but they believed it was, and they were willing to pay for it in blood.

*Everything changes, but everything also stays the same.

We’re not that far apart. 

The discussion point at work was the crunch which will effect us and that is ‘when, not if, the energy crisis hits and electricity is rationed to certain hours of the day and you then have to structure your office / business opening times to fit that supply of power and deal with the economic impact of that…. at what point do you / the nation turn from supporting Ukraine to forcing Ukraine into a settlement with Putin to get the lights back on’.

Indeed, if the rumours are true that Putin is planning to cut all energy exports to the EU in September, then that is when it gets interesting. Negotiations will take pace, Putin will save some face and something will ‘break’ because it has to.

And that is what is coming over the horizon.

Aside from accelerating a domestic nuclear energy program and starting fracking immediately, I would line everyone in this country and the EU against a wall for making us so ‘energy vulnerable’ and not listening to Trump back in 2018. 

Long term though, we will have Russia as the North Korea of Europe and the world will be buying more tanks and bombs. And where did this all start - Putin rolling tanks over a border for a land grab, when he didn’t have to, and I apportion culpability on that basis not on ‘what about what happened in Iraq’.

.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Mungler

[mick miller]

Africa is an odd one. It would appear from a 40,000ft view that Western powers are terrified of a united, productive Africa. Let's be honest, it is a massive continent that could swallow several others (North America, all of Europe, India, China, Japan and the UK). It's totally self sufficient in terms of resources; oil, metals, food, gems, gas and several other resources essential for the global climate hoax agenda (EV cars, solar panels etc.).

Yet, every successful regime that has brought prosperity has been undermined by the power-mongers of the West, who have systematically undermined, attacked, instigated coups and fomented unrest.

Edited May 21, 2022 by mick miller

[mick miller]

34 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Aside from accelerating a domestic nuclear energy program and starting fracking immediately...

And where did a lot of the funding for the anti-fracking tards come from? (clue: look East, red, white and blue flag). Yep, undermining our ability to be energy independent and reliant on pipelines coming across from Eastern Europe.

The useful idiots are so easily steered. There was virtually zero risk from fracking and it's been done in the North Sea since the 80s to improve well flow and production. All the 'contaminated water', 'gas in my taps' cobblers came from the US where the shale deposits sat at a much higher level.

Ho hum. Better start knitting now before winter arrives.

Edited May 21, 2022 by mick miller

[ditchman]

48 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

Ditchman you sound like a educated man who has experience of living and working in Africa I agree that the west has pumped huge amounts of money into that continent and a lot of there governments have taken the money and not spread there wealths But the west has also over the century’s has taken a lot out of Africa Are we to forget the century’s of white European nations putting the African people in Chains and shipping them across the Atlantic for the slave Trade ??????

you are right in what you say...........some "developed " countries were worse than others...Britain (empire was much better)..but still wrong.......africa was devided up in straight lines which seperated homeland s into as many as 3 countries

i knew Idi Amins brother...idi was NOT UGANDAN idi was sudanese ..Kakwa tribe...his home (birth) was in southern sudan where his brother was as a coffee farmer...

BUT ....BUT   that is all in the past .........we now must address what is infrount of us..we cannot live in the past...that time has gone...........the time to act is now ..regardless...of what has gone before...history will not feed us ..the present and the future will....

[Gerry78]

7 minutes ago, ditchman said:

you are right in what you say...........some "developed " countries were worse than others...Britain (empire was much better)..but still wrong.......africa was devided up in straight lines which seperated homeland s into as many as 3 countries

i knew Idi Amins brother...idi was NOT UGANDAN idi was sudanese ..Kakwa tribe...his home (birth) was in southern sudan where his brother was as a coffee farmer...

BUT ....BUT   that is all in the past .........we now must address what is infrount of us..we cannot live in the past...that time has gone...........the time to act is now ..regardless...of what has gone before...history will not feed us ..the present and the future will....

Agree we can not live in the past but it should not be forgotten either Hopefully the future gets better for all nations 👍👍

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

We’re not that far apart. 

Without a doubt.

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

The discussion point at work was the crunch which will effect us and that is ‘when, not if, the energy crisis hits and electricity is rationed to certain hours of the day and you then have to structure your office / business opening times to fit that supply of power and deal with the economic impact of that…. at what point do you / the nation turn from supporting Ukraine to forcing Ukraine into a settlement with Putin to get the lights back on’.

interesting viewpoint, is Russia really holding Europe to energy ransom , I thought it was more about the roubles ?
Why have the EU voted to curtail Russian exports. when there is no visible replacements in the quantities needed.
Its all political manoeuvring , with no clear goals in sight IMHO, the gas usage of western Europe is not something they can replace anytime soon, they need Russian gas, and Russia needs to sell it.

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Aside from accelerating a domestic nuclear energy program and starting fracking immediately, I would line everyone in this country and the EU against a wall for making us so ‘energy vulnerable’ and not listening to Trump back in 2018. 

The sort of infrastructure needed to not be energy vulnerable , takes decades, look how long Nord stream 2 has taken.
Trump might well have been right, but 4 years would not have given us jack, plus , do we want to be dependent on Middle eastern or American gas and oil ?~
Weve been down that road before.

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Long term though, we will have Russia as the North Korea of Europe and the world will be buying more tanks and bombs. And where did this all start - Putin rolling tanks over a border for a land grab, when he didn’t have to, and I apportion culpability on that basis not on ‘what about what happened in Iraq’.

Russia has been a global pariah since the revolution 100 years ago , the worlds oligarchs have refused to entertain them ever since, hence the ideological 'closed' society we imagine it still to be.
Where did it all start ?
You say when the tanks rolled over the border, I say it started with Maidan.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape-idUSBREA1601G20140207

https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2015-05/ukraine-usa-maidan-finance/seite-2?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

This one is a lengthy but good read.

https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea

[McSpredder]

4 hours ago, mick miller said:

.....  every successful regime that has brought prosperity has been undermined by the power-mongers of the West  .....

Are you certain they were all from the West?   I seem to remember reading about one strategy that apparently proved successful in Africa.   It went something like this:

Identify politicians who truly understand economics (for some unknown reason they were described as Wa-Benzi) and help them to obtain good reliable motorcars (obviously for official duties and for the purpose of visiting their constituencies).   Provide lots of poor countries with new roads and bridges and railways and power stations and luxury hotels and presidential palaces, always on the never-never.    Send food supplies so that regimes can distribute largesse to the starving millions, and ensure that power does not fall into in the hands of the wrong people.    Don’t press for repayment in the short term, but do keep reminding all those countries of how helpful you have been.   They might be willing to return the favour in future when big international organisations are deciding policies under the “one nation, one vote” system.

Unfortunately I cannot recall which country came up with that scheme.   Maybe Ditchman would know?

[ditchman]

2 hours ago, McSpredder said:

Are you certain they were all from the West?   I seem to remember reading about one strategy that apparently proved successful in Africa.   It went something like this:

Identify politicians who truly understand economics (for some unknown reason they were described as Wa-Benzi) and help them to obtain good reliable motorcars (obviously for official duties and for the purpose of visiting their constituencies).   Provide lots of poor countries with new roads and bridges and railways and power stations and luxury hotels and presidential palaces, always on the never-never.    Send food supplies so that regimes can distribute largesse to the starving millions, and ensure that power does not fall into in the hands of the wrong people.    Don’t press for repayment in the short term, but do keep reminding all those countries of how helpful you have been.   They might be willing to return the favour in future when big international organisations are deciding policies under the “one nation, one vote” system.

Unfortunately I cannot recall which country came up with that scheme.   Maybe Ditchman would know?

Hhhaaahaha....where shall i start....thats how aid works now...in the old days....aid was targeted....money released...british consultant engineers appointed/awarded the managment contract over pink gins in Westminster..and yes i was there...my old office was 23 old Bond street...just above the barbers....then the consultants arrived in the country and made base with Crown Agents...where the goods were chosen for the job  all had to be British made in Britain....and local people were employed and trained....

THAT WAS THEN

Now they hand over the dosh and the recipients make their own desicion and manage the money themselves...and being central africa you know what happens........

Then there was the "arms for aid " packages...(Micheal Heseltine / westland whirlwind specialist).....you want corruption ....that makes russia look like a 2nd hand courner shop.......even now when i think about it ...it totally takes my breath away....right the way from westminster mandrins ....to the cabinate and to the top.....stunning bare faced corruption..........