Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Bottom line is that Putin invaded. I don't believe for one second he was protecting Russian speakers. I think he saw it as a quick land grab - territory, crops, minerals. 

That is inarguable , but if he wasnt concerned about the pro Russian areas , why didnt he just take the country in 2014 ?

If its just a land grab, the best time to invade would have been when Ukraine was in disarray , with weak armed forces and leadership, why wait 8 years , while it rearmed , retrained with it new NATO friends and moved closer to western integration ?

My firm belief is that there was no original intention to invade, the massing of troops was a sabre rattling exercise to force some kind of negotiation, to make concessions on the direction Ukraine was heading, the bluff of invasion failed , as with western encouragement , Ukraine prepared, with western arms shipments flying in hourly, for war.
The smart move would have been for him to withdraw, as they were far more prepared than expected.
While US/NATO rhetoric ramped up , with various dates given for the invasion , even Zelensky asks the west to tone it down, and was ignored.
Bravado won the day , and Putin ordered them to invade, even though they werent really prepared logistically to do so.

Jon Pilgers take on it .

 

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

If Russia came to the UK and said we want the South East. Would the UK give it up and negotiate it away to avoid deaths? If we were in a fight for survival would we want other countries to help us out, provide us with cash and weapons? 

If I was in Ukraine i would like to think I would fight for my country and i would like other to help out. 

It's not a like for like example,  nobody can role tanks over our boarders, we are part of NATO for exactly this reason so we have allies.

And I don't doubt if invaded we would fight. But we already have an effective military,  when you are arming civilians and millions are fleeing the country then things have already gone badly wrong.

55 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

There are plenty of 'Ukranians' who do not want or wish to be ruled by the current Kiev government, they are indeed fighting for "their" country and have requested their Russian neighbours to support them in maintaining their freedom of choice to not be ruled by a government installed not by democracy but by an internationally supported coup.

There are always plenty of people who don't want to be ruled by the government,  wasn't there a referendum as well?

The international coup bit always looks worrying,  what we're they told? Don't worry you'll be supported,  Russia will never invade!!

8 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

It is easy to see how things get blurred by propaganda and different opinions.

Bottom line is that Putin invaded. I don't believe for one second he was protecting Russian speakers. I think he saw it as a quick land grab - territory, crops, minerals. 

He is definitely at fault, but I genuinely worry where it will all end. More and more dying on both sides and a country getting slowly levelled.

The Russian speakers was his excuse add in the ports and your spot on, I watched 5mins of the video above,  the Ukrainians are only getting pushed backwards,  leaving dead and ruin.

Even @Mungler said the Ukraine is being supported to weaken Russia, I still doubt Russia will move into a Nato country,  at least I hope they don't. 

Meanwhile the Ukraine continues to be used.

People have commented on here that Russia is running out of modern weapons, how long before they are buying weapons from China? Because China might see it as a chance to weaken the USA or NATO 

[Walker570]

Personally I think Putin has bitten off more than he can chew. Russians , particularly those in towns and cities are suddenly finding their sons and husbands are not returning and for what?

There is a main strategic reason Putin wants to 'help' that region of Ukrain. Control of the Black Sea.  It has nothing to do with protecting Russian speakers in that are, he is a very calous self interested person and control over those ports along the Ukrainian coast is what he wants.  His one big problem with this is Turkey and that narrow chanel leading to the outside world.

I see the Ukrainians have found another outlet for their grain via the Danube both north to Europe and also out into the Black Sea below the mined area. It will be interesting to see if Putin intervenes in that.

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Simply not true

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/ukraine-language-law-en/

 

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-law-bans-pro-russia-parties-zelenskiy-signs/31849737.html

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/world/ukraine-ban-russian-books-music-b2105117.html

 

Just 3 examples.....

 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

It is easy to see how things get blurred by propaganda and different opinions.

Bottom line is that Putin invaded. I don't believe for one second he was protecting Russian speakers. I think he saw it as a quick land grab - territory, crops, minerals. 

He is definitely at fault, but I genuinely worry where it will all end. More and more dying on both sides and a country getting slowly levelled.

^^^^^^ This

5 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/ukraine-language-law-en/

 

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-law-bans-pro-russia-parties-zelenskiy-signs/31849737.html

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/world/ukraine-ban-russian-books-music-b2105117.html

 

Just 3 examples.....

 

3 Examples much of which is post invasion and a reaction to the anti russian sentiment and fear of the insurgent. We had exactly the same here in WW2 with fear of the germans. Nearly lost the bomb as a result. A far cry from the mass persecution portrayed by Putin. 

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

3 Examples much of which is post invasion and a reaction to the anti russian sentiment and fear of the insurgent. We had exactly the same here in WW2 with fear of the germans. Nearly lost the bomb as a result. A far cry from the mass persecution portrayed by Putin. 

Not true , book banning began in 2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_book_ban_in_Ukraine#:~:text=The Russian book ban in,conflict between Ukraine and Russia.

Banning of teaching Russian in some schools began in 2012 and was further spread after 2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine#:~:text=The law came into force,their opposition to this law.

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Not true , book banning began in 2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_book_ban_in_Ukraine#:~:text=The Russian book ban in,conflict between Ukraine and Russia.

Banning of teaching Russian in some schools began in 2012 and was further spread after 2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine#:~:text=The law came into force,their opposition to this law.

First is post invasion. It is not a book ban but a screening process. It would be reasonable to assume in response to Russian subversion. 

Second does not justify an invasion and is a matter for govt but ius in anycase not a ban on the language. It sets out the principal language to be Ukraine and other languages to be regional. 

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

First is post invasion. It is not a book ban but a screening process. It would be reasonable to assume in response to Russian subversion. 

Errr right.

In August 2017, the Committee banned the import of two novels of Boris Akunin and memoirs of Vladimir Vysotsky, published by a Moscow-based publishing company Zakharov.^[13] In December 2018, it banned the import of children's books about Russian epic bogatyrs, as well as some memoirs and historical books, also printed in Russia.^[14]

Childrens books about fantasy characters from 1000 years ago are subversive ?

16 minutes ago, oowee said:

Second does not justify an invasion and is a matter for govt but ius in anycase not a ban on the language. It sets out the principal language to be Ukraine and other languages to be regional. 

They were forbidden from teaching the Russian language in schools ?
Nearly 30 % of Ukrainians speak Russian as a first language, and they border Russia, why would you censor something so important ?
Imagine going into Wales and telling them they arent to teach Welsh anymore, or the Welsh assembly voting to not teach English in schools ?

[discobob]

47 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

or the Welsh assembly voting to not teach English in schools ?

If they could get away with it they would!

Edited July 14, 2022 by discobob

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Errr right.

In August 2017, the Committee banned the import of two novels of Boris Akunin and memoirs of Vladimir Vysotsky, published by a Moscow-based publishing company Zakharov.^[13] In December 2018, it banned the import of children's books about Russian epic bogatyrs, as well as some memoirs and historical books, also printed in Russia.^[14]

Childrens books about fantasy characters from 1000 years ago are subversive ?

They were forbidden from teaching the Russian language in schools ?
Nearly 30 % of Ukrainians speak Russian as a first language, and they border Russia, why would you censor something so important ?
Imagine going into Wales and telling them they arent to teach Welsh anymore, or the Welsh assembly voting to not teach English in schools ?

You really are scratching the bottom of the barrel to find some Russian justification for this invasion aren’t you? We’ve had 6 different reasons from the Kremlin already and none bear the truth which is land / coastline grab. 

And as for censorship of Russian literature in Ukraine, well, if anyone needs guidance on state control of news, education, books and the internet we know where to look 😆

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Errr right.

In August 2017, the Committee banned the import of two novels of Boris Akunin and memoirs of Vladimir Vysotsky, published by a Moscow-based publishing company Zakharov.^[13] In December 2018, it banned the import of children's books about Russian epic bogatyrs, as well as some memoirs and historical books, also printed in Russia.^[14]

Childrens books about fantasy characters from 1000 years ago are subversive ?

They were forbidden from teaching the Russian language in schools ?
Nearly 30 % of Ukrainians speak Russian as a first language, and they border Russia, why would you censor something so important ?
Imagine going into Wales and telling them they arent to teach Welsh anymore, or the Welsh assembly voting to not teach English in schools ?

That's completely out of context. All this stuff needs to be seen and understood within the cultural context. This from Wiki. However whatever the truth of the matter it does not support an invasion and the associated mass murder taking place. 

The Russian Empire promoted the spread of the Russian language among the native Ukrainian population, actively refusing to acknowledge the existence of a Ukrainian language.

Alarmed by the threat of Ukrainian separatism (in its turn influenced by the 1863 demands of Polish nationalists), the Russian Minister of Internal Affairs Pyotr Valuev in 1863 issued a secret decree that banned the publication of religious texts and educational texts written in the Ukrainian language^[15] as non-grammatical, but allowed all other texts, including fiction. The Emperor Alexander II in 1876 expanded this ban by issuing the Ems Ukaz (which lapsed in 1905). The Ukaz banned all Ukrainian-language books and song-lyrics, as well as the importation of such works. Furthermore, Ukrainian-language public performances, plays, and lectures were forbidden.^[16] In 1881 the decree was amended^{[by whom?]} to allow the publishing of lyrics and dictionaries, and the performances of some plays in the Ukrainian language with local officials' approval. Ukrainian-only troupes were, however, forbidden. Approximately 9% of the population^[which?] spoke Russian at the time of the Russian Empire Census of 1897.^{[citation needed]} as opposed to 44.31% of the total population of the Empire.^[17]

 

 

[Rewulf]

30 minutes ago, Mungler said:

You really are scratching the bottom of the barrel to find some Russian justification for this invasion aren’t you?

I never said it was justification, just correcting oowee on his assumption that the whole book/language thing was post invasion.
Do I think it justifies invading a country , certainly not.
But try to erase peoples identity, and it always ends in tears for someone.

 

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

That's completely out of context. All this stuff needs to be seen and understood within the cultural context. This from Wiki. However whatever the truth of the matter it does not support an invasion and the associated mass murder taking place. 

As I said.

 

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

The Russian Empire promoted the spread of the Russian language among the native Ukrainian population, actively refusing to acknowledge the existence of a Ukrainian language.

To quote another member , you cant say that , it happened xxx years ago 

But youve underscored my point, erasing a cultures language is the first step to erasing a culture, which both the Russians first , and then the Ukrainians are both guilty of.
Many conquering nations have pulled the same tactic, none are blameless.

[ordnance]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Errr right.

In August 2017, the Committee banned the import of two novels of Boris Akunin and memoirs of Vladimir Vysotsky, published by a Moscow-based publishing company Zakharov.^[13] In December 2018, it banned the import of children's books about Russian epic bogatyrs, as well as some memoirs and historical books, also printed in Russia.^[14]

Childrens books about fantasy characters from 1000 years ago are subversive ?

They were forbidden from teaching the Russian language in schools ?
Nearly 30 % of Ukrainians speak Russian as a first language, and they border Russia, why would you censor something so important ?
Imagine going into Wales and telling them they arent to teach Welsh anymore, or the Welsh assembly voting to not teach English in schools ?

Most people are not idiotic enough to believe the invasion of Ukraine has anything to do with language etc, are they 🤔 

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

Most people are not idiotic enough to believe the invasion of Ukraine has anything to do with language etc, are they 🤔 

Try reading what I wrote. 

[Mungler]

So, the Russians have fired six cruise missiles (that’s $36,000,000 worth) from a submarine in The Black Sea at a city, Vinnytsia, on the far side of Ukraine. Two were shot down, one went who knows where, one hit a car park and killed a load of passers by, including two children so badly burned they are not identified and another chopped in half, and one hit a  private medical clinic, killing the people in the waiting room. The sixth hit the target!

The target, they say, was The Officer's House, a barracks where a meeting of senior Ukranian officers was being held, and they killed 70.

The Officers' House is a concert hall. The people they killed were sound engineers preparing for a pop concert later. There are web sites still selling tickets that haven't taken the place off the lists yet.

The Officers' House is a common name for social clubs and concert halls in Ukraine.

The stupidity, the futility, the waste of lives and money, is mind blowing.

The Russians will now come up with eight more preposterous stories. The first one is for their fans, who'll believe anything. The next eight are so there are ten stories floating about, and thus there is a 90% chance the none-too-engaged will first hear, and hence believe, one of their BS ones. 

There are real world Twitter feeds with the details and photos of the dead - young women, mothers, children and all non-military.

Now we wait for the usual suspects to blame the West for supplying Ukraine with armaments and the Ukraine for not surrendering, in fact, anybody but the insane warmongers that invaded Ukraine and fired those cruise missiles.

[Dave-G]

If one of those were what SKY showed had 'hit an apartment block yesterday, we also saw what looked like a miniature jet aircraft 'sculpture' - the likes of what we have outside some of our military aircraft bases. 

My thoughts about that are military bases have been built very close to apartment blocks - or tother way round - which is tantamount to using human shields in my mind.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not defending Russia, just pointing out that propaganda is rampant on both side of their border.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Dave-G

[clangerman]

26 minutes ago, Mungler said:

So, the Russians have fired six cruise missiles (that’s $36,000,000 worth) from a submarine in The Black Sea at a city, Vinnytsia, on the far side of Ukraine. Two were shot down, one went who knows where, one hit a car park and killed a load of passers by, including two children so badly burned they are not identified and another chopped in half, and one hit a  private medical clinic, killing the people in the waiting room. The sixth hit the target!

The target, they say, was The Officer's House, a barracks where a meeting of senior Ukranian officers was being held, and they killed 70.

The Officers' House is a concert hall. The people they killed were sound engineers preparing for a pop concert later. There are web sites still selling tickets that haven't taken the place off the lists yet.

The Officers' House is a common name for social clubs and concert halls in Ukraine.

The stupidity, the futility, the waste of lives and money, is mind blowing.

The Russians will now come up with eight more preposterous stories. The first one is for their fans, who'll believe anything. The next eight are so there are ten stories floating about, and thus there is a 90% chance the none-too-engaged will first hear, and hence believe, one of their BS ones. 

There are real world Twitter feeds with the details and photos of the dead - young women, mothers, children and all non-military.

Now we wait for the usual suspects to blame the West for supplying Ukraine with armaments and the Ukraine for not surrendering, in fact, anybody but the insane warmongers that invaded Ukraine and fired those cruise missiles.

i will no more believe the Russians version than I do yours! 

[Rewulf]

32 minutes ago, Mungler said:

The target, they say, was The Officer's House, a barracks where a meeting of senior Ukranian officers was being held, and they killed 70.

The Officers' House is a concert hall. The people they killed were sound engineers preparing for a pop concert later. There are web sites still selling tickets that haven't taken the place off the lists yet.

The Officers' House is a common name for social clubs and concert halls in Ukraine.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/soldiers-are-seen-entering-the-officers-club-in-vinnytsia-news-photo/910502100

 

Last death toll I saw for this is 23 , RIP to all those , military and civilian.

[Mungler]

18 minutes ago, clangerman said:

i will no more believe the Russians version than I do yours! 

There’s a good article on the BBC site about Russian torture of Ukrainians - all independently verified and documented. You should probably not believe that either.

 

11 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/soldiers-are-seen-entering-the-officers-club-in-vinnytsia-news-photo/910502100

 

Last death toll I saw for this is 23 , RIP to all those , military and civilian.

The adverts for the musical show playing at the club are in the background of the news footage. 

Who knows what the venue has hosted previously. Probably a vaccine centre or an election polling venue. 

There’s been no military loss of life as a result of the $36,000,000 cruise missile strike.

.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Mungler

[oowee]

War  time controls and requisitions for industry act mobilising Russian Industry and labour now to support the efforts. Things are starting to bite. 

[Mungler]

It’s just nuts. Imagine throwing $36,000,000 of kit down range and killing a couple of dozen women and children.

I think we’re seeing what a disjointed mess the Russian military can be. 

[Dave-G]

Sounds like they're planning a long campaign. 

Where's that from please oowee?

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, Mungler said:

There’s been no military loss of life as a result of the $36,000,000 cruise missile strike.

So they say, when do the Ukrainians ever admit to losing any military personnel or equipment ?
If you were to listen to the likes of Ukrinform , the Russians lose a 100 men and 10 tanks each and every day, while the Ukrainians have 1 soldier get a splinter in his thumb.

3 minutes ago, Mungler said:

It’s just nuts. Imagine throwing $36,000,000 of kit down range and killing a couple of dozen women and children.

You seem to place some emphasis on the cost of the Kalibrs ?
There was some talk recently that Russia didnt actually have any precision missiles left ? And was broke ?
But at £6 mil a pop , its on par with the cost of Tomahawks that we seem more than happy to launch at goat herders, or a 'suspected' weapons stash ?

 

Either way , someone is lying about what they have, and whether the target was legitimate or not.
I certainly wont speculate, suffice to say there definitely has been civilian deaths, where you got your figures of 70 + from Im not sure, as literally no one is claiming that.

 

[Mungler]

This isn’t about anything other than dealing with this situation to hand and the evidence to hand.

The Russians do have a dwindling stock of very expensive accurate missiles which makes this attack all the more baffling. Indeed in everything there is a cost benefit analysis and the Russians can’t afford to throw $36,000,000 of dwindling missile stock at a couple of dozen women and children.

That being said I think the whole ‘Putin is a tactical genius’ is wearing thin now.

And the 70 deaths claimed was the original Russian claim of Ukrainian military personnel taken out in the attack and which has since proven to be false.

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Mungler

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Mungler said:

This isn’t about anything other than dealing with this situation to hand and the evidence to hand.

For which we have to pretend that the Ukrainian ministry of information is going to give an unbiased truthful account ?

5 minutes ago, Mungler said:

The Russians do have a dwindling stock of very expensive accurate missiles which makes this attack all the more baffling. Indeed in everything there is a cost benefit analysis and the Russians can’t afford to throw $36,000,000 of dwindling missile stock at a couple of dozen women and children.

Im pretty sure anyone who DELIBERATELY decided to fire all those rather expensive missiles at civilians , would be put up against a wall and shot.
But thats exactly what we are told (by Ukraine) it was , a deliberate attack on civilian infrastructure.
Or, someones lying.

 

8 minutes ago, Mungler said:

And the 70 deaths claimed was the original Russian claim of Ukrainian military personnel taken out in the attack and which has since proven to be false.

So where did you get this portion of outrageous Russian propaganda ?
Link please.